Fe politics versus Fi politics

[SolitaryWalker]

Are you saying that Fi users have a choice of whether or not they let the environment affect their feelings? How is that even possible? Where would your feelings even come from if they weren't spawned from the external environment? Do you just make up feelings based on how you think you should feel?

Both Fe and Fi are directly impacted by the feelings of others. You as an Fe will feel sad or happy if the person next to you feels sad or happy respectively. Fi will ask himself, does this person really feel sad or happy, should he feel this way, do I really sympathize with him? If yes, then I will feel the way he does. But if not, no. And even if I do sympathize with him, my feelings will be based not directly on his, but on my interpretation of his feelings. This is the difference between the introvert and the extrovert, the introvert interposes his own perceptions between his inner state of mind and the object, whilst you as an extrovert, do not.

 

[SillySapienne]

If I ask someone's honest opinion about something, guess what, I *actually* want to hear their *honest* opinion.

The thought of receiving, instead, their dishonest, "nice" opinion makes my blood boil and my temperature rise.

I don't know if it's Fe that's responsible, or something else, but there's a whole lot of PC-infused nonsense that gets espoused these days because we don't want to hurt anyone's feewings.

Fi, as I experience it is about upholding *actual* fairness and integrity of truth.

Apparently and luckily for me, my ex was an Fi subscriber because he, like me, would always tell me the truth even at times when hearing said truths utterly hurt my feelings.

Veritas!!!

 

[Kiddo]

Um, not if the "tact and respect" that you speak of come at the cost of being fair, and by fair, I do mean honest.

Not everybody's feelings are valid, far from, in fact.

Why do you give your subjective sense of right and wrong precedence over other's feelings? Everyone gains if you can understand other's perspectives before making such value judgments.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Apparently and luckily for me, my ex was an Fi subscriber because he, like me, would always tell me the truth even at times when hearing said truths utterly hurt my feelings.

Veritas!!!

 

[SillySapienne]

Both Fe and Fi are directly impacted by the feelings of others. You as an Fe will feel sad or happy if the person next to you feels sad or happy respectively. Fi will ask himself, does this person really feel sad or happy, should he feel this way, do I really sympathize with him? If yes, then I will feel the way he does. But if not, no. And even if I do sympathize with him, my feelings will be based not directly on his, but on my interpretation of his feelings.

Well I'll be damned, I agree with you here, wholeheartedly.

 

[Haphazard]

I for one use Fe only when I want to get myself something I want from people, unless of course it be a close relationship where my Fe shall be almost entirely subjugated to my Thinking values concerning fairness and clarity. There Fe will be supressed by Ti to the point where it can express nothing but the most earnest of emotive urges, there it shall be fully sincere. Yet when Fe is given free play in its own element, it is usually used as an instrument to attain practical results.

Damn it, Blue, if you want something from me, just ask for it up front!

My feelings are dictated by the external environment. If somebody comes into work in a bad mood, then I'll end up in a bad mood. If I see someone sad, then eventually I will feel sad. If I don't talk about my feelings, then I won't feel better. I don't have a choice in the matter. I don't "let" negative external feelings bother me, they just do. That is why Ti is so promising. It allows for some detachment.

Are you saying that Fi users have a choice of whether or not they let the environment affect their feelings? How is that even possible? Where would your feelings even come from if they weren't spawned from the external environment? Do you just make up feelings based on how you think you should feel?

It's... I don't know how to explain it. Something will hit you in a certain way, but your moods aren't determined by the others around you. They come from within, they don't bounce and reflect from the people around. The environment affects their feelings, but the people don't. An Fi-type will see an injustice and feel bad about it, knowing somehow internally that something was wrong -- it seems like the way Fe works, they'd have to look outwards to see what they were going to feel about it.

 

[Kiddo]

Both Fe and Fi are directly impacted by the feelings of others. You as an Fe will feel sad or happy if the person next to you feels sad or happy respectively. Fi will ask himself, does this person really feel sad or happy, should he feel this way, do I really sympathize with him? If yes, then I will feel the way he does. But if not, no. And even if I do sympathize with him, my feelings will be based not directly on his, but on my interpretation of his feelings. This is the difference between the introvert and the extrovert, the introvert interposes his own perceptions between his inner state of mind and the object, whilst you as an extrovert, do not.

Well that is dumb. If that is the case, then Fi users dictate how they feel by their own subjective standards. How can they claim to uphold ideals like honesty and integrity when they are only upholding their own version of those ideals and they don't integrate any other perceptions of those values into their framework? To obtain the most objective idea of a value, one must integrate as many perceptions of that value as possible.

 

[SillySapienne]

Why do you give your subjective sense of right and wrong precedence over other's feelings? Everyone gains if you can understand other's perspectives before making such value judgments.

Grrrrrrr!!!

That's the whole freakin' point!!!

Right and wrong are not subjective constructs, feelings, i.e. emotional perceptions, however, are!!!

A fact remains a fact regardless of how *you* feel about it!!!

Fi abhors moral relativism.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Well that is dumb. If that is the case, then Fi users dictate how they feel by their own subjective standards. How can they claim to uphold ideals like honesty and integrity when they are only upholding their own version of those ideals and they don't integrate any other perceptions of those values into their framework? To obtain the most objective idea of a value, one must integrate as many perceptions of that value as possible.

Think about this. Say an Fi and Fe character see a man publicly hung. Fe will say OUUHH THAT IS cruel because my mother taught me so. An Fi man will feel ouuh that must have been strangling on his neck, how must he have felt at the last moments of his life, did he think of his kids, his wife, mother, sibblings, etc? He empathizes directly. How you figure that this way is somehow less ethically wholesome than the earlier described Fe way is beyond me..

 

[Kiddo]

It's... I don't know how to explain it. Something will hit you in a certain way, but your moods aren't determined by the others around you. They come from within, they don't bounce and reflect from the people around. The environment affects their feelings, but the people don't. An Fi-type will see an injustice and feel bad about it, knowing somehow internally that something was wrong -- it seems like the way Fe works, they'd have to look outwards to see what they were going to feel about it.

I just feel. That is what I can't seem to understand is how Fi users aren't the same way.

I also have a framework. As I've experienced perceptions of various values and ideals over time, I've integrated them into my framework. Once I start feeling something, I compare it to my framework to determine why I feel the way I do and whether or not I'm justified in feeling that way.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Grrrrrrr!!!


Fi abhors moral relativism.

Yes, as I have mentioned in my previous post, Fi abhors relativism because it seeks to explore the nature of feelings and morality on its own endeavor primarily through empathy. Whilst Fe tends to be relativistic because the morality it endorses is relative to the community it inhabits. 'When in Rome, do as the Romans do!'

 

[SillySapienne]

Think about this. Say an Fi and Fe character see a man publicly hung. Fe will say OUUHH THAT IS cruel because my mother taught me so. An Fi man will feel ouuh that must have been strangling on his neck, how must he have felt at the last moments of his life, did he think of his kids, his wife, mother, sibblings, etc? He empathizes directly. How you figure that this way is somehow less ethically wholesome than the earlier described Fe way is beyond me..

The moon must be full because I am absolutely *feeling* what you're saying tonight!!

An Fi man will feel ouuh that must have been strangling on his neck, how must he have felt at the last moments of his life, did he think of his kids, his wife, mother, sibblings, etc? He empathizes directly

^That is so spot on it's ridiculous!!!

 

[Kiddo]

Think about this. Say an Fi and Fe character see a man publicly hung. Fe will say OUUHH THAT IS cruel because my mother taught me so. An Fi man will feel ouuh that must have been strangling on his neck, how must he have felt at the last moments of his life, did he think of his kids, his wife, mother, sibblings, etc? He empathizes directly. How you figure that this way is somehow less ethically wholesome than the earlier described Fe way is beyond me..

That was kindof a hyperbole. Obviously you think very lowly of Fe.

I would never think anything as stupid as "that is wrong because my mother said so." My feelings on the issue would be based on my own reasoning and on prior similar experiences I had accumulated in my framework. For example, if I had ever hurt my neck, then my line of reasoning would be, "ouuh that must have been strangling on his neck" or if I had known the family of a guy who had been hung then I might think, "how must he have felt at the last moments of his life, did he think of his kids, his wife, mother, sibblings." So I would emphasize based on my own past experiences.

Now Fi sound inauthentic to me because it claims to "emphasize directly" but in reality, it doesn't sound like Fi relates anything to personal experience. To the contrary, it makes expectations of how things should or probably feel.

 

[Kiddo]

Whilst Fe tends to be relativistic because the morality it endorses is relative to the community it inhabits. 'When in Rome, do as the Romans do!'

Once again I am calling BS. I grew up in Red Neck, small town, Wyoming and from a young age I was a liberal, environmentalist, hippy kid. My family is even mostly Republicans and Independents. My views came from my personal experiences, not form the "community". I think you might have a limited view of Fe. It is not dictated by "society" or "community" but by reasoning from prior experiences.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

my own reasoning and on prior similar experiences I had accumulated in my framework..

When you speak of 'reasoning' you take the matter outside of the province of Feeling, therefore render it irrelevant to the matter of Fe. Fe in its own right is indeed all about your mother, your church, or your street gang taught you.

Now Fi sound inauthentic to me because it claims to "emphasize directly" but in reality, it doesn't sound like Fi relates anything to personal experience. To the contrary, it makes expectations of how things should or probably feel.

Hmm..I think it is a terribly unreasonable expectation that if you say ouch after being pierced that you be hurting! I better rectify this by asking others how you must have felt instead of going to figure on my own!

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Once again I am calling BS. I grew up in Red Neck, small town, Wyoming and from a young age I was a liberal, environmentalist, hippy kid. My family is even mostly Republicans and Independents. My views came from my personal experiences, not form the "community". I think you might have a limited view of Fe. It is not dictated by "society" or "community" but by reasoning from prior experiences.

Thank your Ni-Ti for this, not Fe, Kiddo.

 

[SillySapienne]

For example, if I had ever hurt my neck, then my line of reasoning would be, "ouuh that must have been strangling on his neck" or if I had known the family of a guy who had been hung then I might think, "how must he have felt at the last moments of his life, did he think of his kids, his wife, mother, sibblings." So I would emphasize based on my own past experiences.

And therein lies the difference between you and me, or Fe and Fi.

We need not personally know the man nor his family to *directly* empathize with him.

 

[Kiddo]

And therein lies the difference between you and me, or Fe and Fi.

We need not personally know the man nor his family to *directly* empathize with him.

Whoa, you totally misread that.

I wasn't talking about the family of the guy who was hung. I was talking about a similar situation with another family and another guy. I don't have to personally know someone to empathize with them.

 

[Kiddo]

When you speak of 'reasoning' you take the matter outside of the province of Feeling, therefore render it irrelevant to the matter of Fe. Fe in its own right is indeed all about your mother, your church, or your street gang taught you.

If you say that, then you are overcomplicating feeling. Teaching is not without reasoning. Fe would be about how you felt about your mother, how you felt about your church, or how you felt about your street gang. When it comes to understanding feelings outside of feelings, I agree I reflect on community standards, but not the standards themselves, only how I feel about them. Feeling just comes.

Hmm..I think it is a terribly unreasonable expectation that if you say ouch after being pierced that you be hurting! I better rectify this by asking how others how you must have felt instead of going to figure on my own!

Have you always lived in a bubble? I would think you would have relevant experience as far as pain before you could even walk.

Thank your Ni-Ti for this, not Fe, Kiddo.

It's 3 in the morning. I'm going to bed. But don't think you are getting off easy.

 

[Mole]

If ever I ask you to be brutally frank with me, I want you to disregard my question and tell me beautiful lies.