I know what Ni is now!

[WALMART]

I often get the impression that Ne-doms are always seeing 'the light', while SeNi users almost seem like they're being held back by their own neuroses and obsessions, especially if they're in some sort of Ni-Ji/Ji-Ni loop.

r u sure

 

[Opal]

Hmm, I don't know if I can reinforce that connection, but I do identify with recognizing most things as part of a neutral whole... sort of 3D, greyscale concepts viewed from different perspectives, through differently colored lenses.

...which is one reason it's kind of ironic I'm drawn to personality psychology; for a long time I've held the stance that personality is a flaw, a kind of ignorance. That's unrelated, though.

 

[Werebudgie]

On the Ni shifting perspective thing, an addition/expansion to what I wrote earlier:

I'm thinking more about this Ni "shifting perspective" piece. Something about your specific example and its flavor distracted me but the shifting perspective thing is relevant IMO.

I found a thread with comments that say it in a way that resonates more clearly with how I experience it. This may have been precisely what you were saying/trying to get at in the OP, just in different words. Anyway, these comments are more accurate to my experience/perception without the distraction I (for some reason) got from your example:

In a more practical sense, when you are discussing a topic and someone reframes the question -- not because they have had past experience with the question, but are simply able to see this on the fly -- and so reveals the bias that was in play before, well, that is one visible use of Ni.

I've seen it happen on the forums here repeatedly by INxJ types.

If you imagine the discussion/problem as a three-dimensional object, and everyone is standing on one side of the problem, viewing it from that angle, the person using Ni walks to a different side of the problem and sees it from a different angle.

Often we assume that we are viewing something objectively, when actually there are many different perspectives that would change how we assess things. It is all a matter of where we position ourselves and place our feet.

I identify with what Jen has described. My own mental picture of the process is to hold the idea in my hand like a large faceted stone and turn it around in my hands so I can see different sides of it. I can't not do this.

If someone tells me that something is ________, I can't help picking it up and turning it around to see if it is still ________ from a different angle. Usually it doesn't look quite the same way if you look at it from another side. It's a little disorienting at times.

All of the quoted material makes sense to me from Ni-dom experience with perspective shifting, and the bolded descriptions are particularly accurate to my experience.

I think that the Ni subjectivity within a larger landscape may sensitize our perception to the importance of specific location in affecting perception (did that make sense at all outside my head? It's clear to me but an odd sentence).

In case that didn't make any sense outside my head .... Meaning: when it comes to Ni perception, I know that I'm in a huge landscape and am perceiving it from where I specifically stand/am located in that moment. I know that I haven't created this landscape, it is outside of me. I know I can perceive from my own specific location in any given moment, and I also know that there are other locations in the landscape that reveal different perceptions due to different location in the larger whole. I also seem to have some freedom of movement in the landscape, so am able to move around to perceive from at least some other locations (one at a time, but the movement can be relatively fast).

(Also, I haven't gone through the whole thread from which the above-quoted descriptions emerge, but there may be some additional useful info there from Ni-dom perspectives. Though it is a really old thread.) eta: not so much.

 

[Opal]

On the Ni shifting perspective thing, an addition/expansion to what I wrote earlier:

I'm thinking more about this Ni "shifting perspective" piece. Something about your specific example and its flavor distracted me but the shifting perspective thing is relevant IMO.

I found a thread with comments that say it in a way that resonates more clearly with how I experience it. This may have been precisely what you were saying/trying to get at in the OP, just in different words. Anyway, these comments are more accurate to my experience/perception without the distraction I (for some reason) got from your example:





All of the quoted material makes sense to me from Ni-dom experience with perspective shifting, and the bolded descriptions are particularly accurate to my experience.

I think that the Ni subjectivity within a larger landscape may sensitize our perception to the importance of specific location in affecting perception (did that make sense at all outside my head? It's clear to me but an odd sentence).

In case that didn't make any sense outside my head .... Meaning: when it comes to Ni perception, I know that I'm in a huge landscape and am perceiving it from where I specifically stand/am located in that moment. I know that I haven't created this landscape, it is outside of me. I know I can perceive from my own specific location in any given moment, and I also know that there are other locations in the landscape that reveal different perceptions due to different location in the larger whole. I also seem to have some freedom of movement in the landscape, so am able to move around to perceive from at least some other locations (one at a time, but the movement can be relatively fast).

(Also, I haven't gone through the whole thread from which the above-quoted descriptions emerge, but there may be some additional useful info there from Ni-dom perspectives. Though it is a really old thread.)

Welp, guess I'm supporting the connection after all.

 

[Evo]

So I think I now know what Ni is like when its used.

Its seeing the whole picture at all times. Both sides of the same coin. When someone says they are "Strong Willed" that also implies that they are "Stubbornly narrow sighted." If someone says they are "very shy" it also means they are "good at keeping secrets." If someone says they are a psychopath, another may argue they are "willing to do what others are not."

For every bad there is somehow a good. A yin and a yang.

Yea this is ok.

I think Ne and Ni are the same in this "multiple perspective" aspect, but Ne is objective and Ni is subjective. So an Ni user is more prone to thinking something is horribly wrong, when the relationship is going amazing. Meanwhile an Ne user probably only sees the objective perspectives that are actually happening.

I remember when you did a video and described the difference between Se and Si.

You said that Se just see's a buncha dirty dishes in the sink.

Si knows that from past experience those dishes grow mold on them if left in the sink too long. Si would have a connection to the past in this way cause they have physically experienced it.

Ni does the same thing...except with a connection to future, and doesn't need to physically experience it.

It just automatically knows that it's a bad idea to leave the dishes unwashed in the sink for too long. And it's because it references context over time.

It doesn't necessarily need to see mold on dishes ever in life.

Ni could have just seen something dirty sitting somewhere or left out not having to do with dishes...and saw it got mold there....and referenced that context....and swapped it out with the present context.

Make sense? Probably a simplistic example. I know there's more to it than that.

But it's the same thing with your relationship example.

I would argue that objective perception functions may not be paranoid enough. lol

 

[Werebudgie]

Hmm, I don't know if I can reinforce that connection, but I do identify with recognizing most things as part of a neutral whole... sort of 3D, greyscale concepts viewed from different perspectives, through differently colored lenses.

Hmm, so maybe one problem I had with the shifting perspective example in the OP is that it's binary/two-dimensional/either-or and thus for me would be like a flattened unreal suffocating landscape with terribly limited perspective and movement. I notice that the descriptions that resonate more with me - the ones I quoted and yours, too, as I look at it - are three dimensional. (random note: actually, time is also a coordinate in the landscape for me, so maybe more than three dimensions, but at least three).

 

[valaki]

Today I picked this thread to entirely read through it lol

Lets take a worlds best car driver and worlds best car mechanic for as an example. This hypothetical car mechanic knows how the engine works, what metal is used where and why, why the certain screws are tightened with certain force etc etc, but isnt a very good driver. And this hypothetical car driver knows next to nothing about the screws and the bolts, but is able to drive any car flawlessly after testing it out for 5 seconds. Sooo, which one of the guys has more deeper and accurate understanding of cars? Yes you guessed it, its the car mechanic, the driver only knows all about how to use a car, not so much about a car itself.

Whether the driving skills or knowledge of car mechanics is more important to someone, its their personal thing and i dont think that one is somehow better than another. Its just that i prefer the knowledge more and there is my functional bias

Bad example. The driver could still be using Ti for his skills, just uses it for something else, not for understanding the insides of the car.

I often get the impression that Ne-doms are always seeing 'the light', while SeNi users almost seem like they're being held back by their own neuroses and obsessions, especially if they're in some sort of Ni-Ji/Ji-Ni loop.

So Ne-doms can't have neuroses and obsessions? No? Why not?

Did you even read my post?

I read your post and I can see why [MENTION=20789]Werebudgie[/MENTION] made that conclusion. If you disagree, how about you explain why?

Note: I see from your profile that you're "DJ ARENDEE." I've seen some of your stuff on YouTube and if my memory serves, you have seemed to me to have a bit of a (socionics-fueled?) obsession with Ni-doms - INFJs specifically, given some sort of assumed complementary oppositeness in our types or something? (I realize I'm mixing MBTI and socionics here, I may be misremembering but it seemed kind of like that's what you were doing. All very vague memory, though, so I could be inaccurate in some way here). Anyway, I'm not sure if or how that's relevant to your current efforts to understand and describe Ni in other people including us Ni-doms, but it seems to me there's some flavor underneath your efforts to understand Ni that may be related somehow to this other stuff. I know that's vague, but will leave it in anyway.

It's not vague at all. You're right about this guess. To me it's pretty obvious how it's related. I just don't understand why he hasn't yet figured out why it's the wrong approach.

I think that the Ni subjectivity within a larger landscape may sensitize our perception to the importance of specific location in affecting perception (did that make sense at all outside my head? It's clear to me but an odd sentence).

No worries I think I understood. Of course not as well as a Ni-dom But I get the meaning of the sentence.

In case that didn't make any sense outside my head .... Meaning: when it comes to Ni perception, I know that I'm in a huge landscape and am perceiving it from where I specifically stand/am located in that moment. I know that I haven't created this landscape, it is outside of me. I know I can perceive from my own specific location in any given moment, and I also know that there are other locations in the landscape that reveal different perceptions due to different location in the larger whole. I also seem to have some freedom of movement in the landscape, so am able to move around to perceive from at least some other locations (one at a time, but the movement can be relatively fast).

I do want to ask one thing, if the landscape is outside of you, why is this still introverted intuition? Or are you referring to Se in some way there?

Hmm, so maybe one problem I had with the shifting perspective example in the OP is that it's binary/two-dimensional/either-or and thus for me would be like a flattened unreal suffocating landscape with terribly limited perspective and movement. I notice that the descriptions that resonate more with me - the ones I quoted and yours, too, as I look at it - are three dimensional. (random note: actually, time is also a coordinate in the landscape for me, so maybe more than three dimensions, but at least three).

Yes it seemed very two-dimensional to me too. It must be nice to have a four-dimensional version though...

Ni could have just seen something dirty sitting somewhere or left out not having to do with dishes...and saw it got mold there....and referenced that context....and swapped it out with the present context.

Make sense? Probably a simplistic example. I know there's more to it than that.

Hahah funny example! I know when I first moved into an apartment it didn't sink into my head for a while that it's a good idea to wash up the dishes in time. After enough exposure to mold, washing all that up, I decided I didn't really want to mess with that. That worked well as a sort of conditioning and I got more diligent about washing them up in time. Took a while to get this response conditioned though as I easily just give no two fucks about mess by default. What function is that then? Hahahah

I would argue that objective perception functions may not be paranoid enough. lol

No, I would say they have just the right amount of paranoia - less is usually better than more, in this case. ;p

 

[five sounds]

yeah, just a little Ne-dom contribution here.

Ne paranoia is a real thing. we see the good and the worst and everything in between in a situation. we can pick up on one perceived bad vibe and in seconds be so scared that everything's wrong and going to hell fast.

i think the difference (from what i've perceived) is that we keep other options open too. we can see that worst case scenario and still see all of the other possible scenarios simultaneously. i feel like Ni-doms get set on one trail and follow it all the way down, while Ne-doms see that as a possibility, but see it as just that: one possible scenario. we're open to anything that might give us evidence to support, refute, or modify any of those lines of thought. and seek it out hard in times of distress.

EDIT: i don't claim to understand Ni, so i'm open to hearing if i'm wrong about any this. just sharing my thoughts and impressions.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Let's do a fun example of the perception functions.

Say there is an object covered with a blanket concealing any revealing information about the object. (I have another one of these analogies on another thread with a swimming pool).

Se: Based on the shape of the object protruding through the blanket, I can estimate that it is probably [insert item]. (Objective awareness, looking directly at the facts, what's in front of you, and attempting to reason situations through objective sensory data)

Si: I've seen [insert item]s that possess about the same shape before, and it looks exactly the same as the shape of the object I remember; therefore, I think it is [insert]. (Subjective awareness, remembering and realizing exactly what sensory details mean to you but not to others and using that conclusion to solve situations in the future)

Ne: Hmmm, I could take a guess by the shape of the objects but there is simply so many things that could be under that blanket, for all we know, it could be several objects together to make it look like another object. (Objective Abstraction, seeing all of the possible angles to a situation)

Ni: It's a [insert item]; don't ask me how I know, because I can't tell you, I just know that it is [insert item] and I have no idea why I think this, it just seems like it is. (Subjective Abstraction, looking beneath the exterior without actually looking beneath it, being tuned in to patterns that seem distant from reality)

Introverted intuition is being able to figure out abstract patterns behind reality based on instinct and interpret what those abstract patterns are in relevance to you to be utilized via a Je function.

 

[ndovjtjcaqidthi]

I read your post and I can see why [MENTION=20789]Werebudgie[/MENTION] made that conclusion. If you disagree, how about you explain why?

I don't really see a point.

 

[á´…eparted]

Let's do a fun example of the perception functions.

Say there is an object covered with a blanket concealing any revealing information about the object. (I have another one of these analogies on another thread with a swimming pool).

Se: Based on the shape of the object protruding through the blanket, I can estimate that it is probably [insert item]. (Objective awareness, looking directly at the facts, what's in front of you, and attempting to reason situations through objective sensory data)

Si: I've seen [insert item]s that possess about the same shape before, and it looks exactly the same as the shape of the object I remember; therefore, I think it is [insert]. (Subjective awareness, remembering and realizing exactly what sensory details mean to you but not to others and using that conclusion to solve situations in the future)

Ne: Hmmm, I could take a guess by the shape of the objects but there is simply so many things that could be under that blanket, for all we know, it could be several objects together to make it look like another object. (Objective Abstraction, seeing all of the possible angles to a situation)

Ni: It's a [insert item]; don't ask me how I know, because I can't tell you, I just know that it is [insert item] and I have no idea why I think this, it just seems like it is. (Subjective Abstraction, looking beneath the exterior without actually looking beneath it, being tuned in to patterns that seem distant from reality)

Introverted intuition is being able to figure out abstract patterns behind reality based on instinct and interpret what those abstract patterns are in relevance to you to be utilized via a Je function.

I cringe when I see Ni described as you put it. Here's why: It makes it seem like an Ni dom will never be able to understand their insights. Ever. It's like their minds are magical black boxes that are meerly trusted to work and that's how it is. This was espically an issue for me, and can be for others, but I can't relate to it.

The way it works usually for me, is I will usually know something instantly, it will come to me and in that moment, I couldn't explain to you how I know. However, given time I can retroactively determine (usually) what things around me, or from in my mind that caused that initial insight to come to me. It's kind of a backwards process, but it somehow works out. I have thoughts, and then have to retroactively determine what thoughts were. I actually rather hate that I think that way sometimes as I fear it can make me come across as a charlatan. As such, I have put a lot of effort into being able to tease apart the nebulous abstracts that go through my head. It's a never ending process for me. I have gotten good enough that sometimes I can get them to run in parallel. For as amazing as Ni can be, it can also go horribly horribly wrong, in particular if it's trusted too implicitly. Naturally, I seek to avoid that. It thus makes me seem more Si-like because I train myself to be that way. For these reasons, if I didn't have a background on MBTI, I'd guess I am either Si or Se based off this.

Ultimately, I think people may have combinations of these, or this is how it initially starts.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

I cringe when I see Ni described as you put it. Here's why: It makes it seem like an Ni dom will never be able to understand their insights. Ever. It's like their minds are magical black boxes that are meerly trusted to work and that's how it is. This was espically an issue for me, and can be for others, but I can't relate to it.

The way it works usually for me, is I will usually know something instantly, it will come to me and in that moment, I couldn't explain to you how I know. However, given time I can retroactively determine (usually) what things around me, or from in my mind that caused that initial insight to come to me. It's kind of a backwards process, but it somehow works out. I have thoughts, and then have to retroactively determine what thoughts were. I actually rather hate that I think that way sometimes as I fear it can make me come across as a charlatan. As such, I have put a lot of effort into being able to tease apart the nebulous abstracts that go through my head. It's a never ending process for me. I have gotten good enough that sometimes I can get them to run in parallel. For as amazing as Ni can be, it can also go horribly horribly wrong, in particular if it's trusted too implicitly. Naturally, I seek to avoid that. It thus makes me seem more Si-like because I train myself to be that way. For these reasons, if I didn't have a background on MBTI, I'd guess I am either Si or Se based off this.

Ultimately, I think people may have combinations of these, or this is how it initially starts.

That's because we subjectively understand patterns in our own mind, so we can't express how we know things to others inquiring and looking for cohesive information and thus we are forced to say "I can't explain how" simply because our perception of events is entirely idiosyncratic.

I guess one thing that makes Pi functions so mysterious is due to to the fact they use a sort of pseudo-inductive logic when interpreting events. Specific -> General, unlike and mysterious to the Pe General -> Specific.

 

[á´…eparted]

That's because we subjectively understand patterns in our own mind, so we can't express how we know things to others inquiring and looking for cohesive information and thus we are forced to say "I can't explain how" simply because our perception of events is entirely idiosyncratic.

I guess one thing that makes Pi functions so mysterious is due to to the fact they use a sort of pseudo-inductive logic when interpreting events. Specific -> General, unlike and mysterious to the Pe General -> Specific.

Yes you are correct. It's also why P types often feel so confused at how Pi function can possibly work, because specific to general just seems completely backwards from an objective point of view. It shouldn't even work.

What I am saying though, is that at least for Ni, it's not impossible for us to explain how, even if it isn't perfect. It's often written as if it isn't possible.

 

[LuciJr]

A simple word to describe Ni is essence. Ni its convergent, it isn't distracted by anything in it way, its like a F22 that has only one purpose, solely one cause: to meet the goal, to simplify everything, to reveal what is hidden, to understand the soil, the ground, to penetrate it, and get to the core concept of everything, whether that would be abstract aplied to abstract, or abstract aplied to concret.

The interesting thing is that in order for Ni to understand, Ni would freeze literarely the big picture of what can be comprehended, at huge dimensions and only after doing this, Ni would start to make its way into "deep dark", by simplifying everything, until the big picture is reduced to its essence, a tiny and precious insight, like a pearl found in deep waters.

I also think Ni users have a natural understanding of what is "appearence" over "essence", or what is "non-fundamental/non/essential" over what is "fundamental/essential" atmost in a instant. Ni simply knows what is important and what is not, what is fundamental and what is not, what is the core and what the core isn't, and all these from a subjective and abstract point of refference.

And the subjectivity of Ni lies not in its "subjective" ( the insights aims to be objective actually, and most of the times, if verified by sound logic, it is truly objective) reliability, but rather in the subbjective point of reference at one particular point in the big picture. For example, in this case, which is what is Ni about, Ni would begin analysing the big picture from rather a subjective perspective in the world of abstracts, to form a concrete detail of the fundamental. So, it begins to form the big picture and to penetrate from this very particular perspective and issue, which is the essence of Ni.

 

[Evo]

Hahah funny example! I know when I first moved into an apartment it didn't sink into my head for a while that it's a good idea to wash up the dishes in time. After enough exposure to mold, washing all that up, I decided I didn't really want to mess with that. That worked well as a sort of conditioning and I got more diligent about washing them up in time. Took a while to get this response conditioned though as I easily just give no two fucks about mess by default. What function is that then? Hahahah



No, I would say they have just the right amount of paranoia - less is usually better than more, in this case. ;p

Well dishes probably depends on other factors...

But if I was to guess its probably dominant Pe.

Not sure though. Ha ha not doing the dishes in a timely fashion, or not wanting/ caring to do them is different too.

Like I don't want to go to bed with dishes dirty in the sink, but sometimes I do.

Others would not be thinking about dishes before they go to bed lol.. I think its an individual thing.

I once knew a ISFP that would refuse to go to bed with even one dish in the sink. The rest of the house was always a mess...but not those dishes. It's funny what we hold on to lol.

Learning from experience is usually related to sensing especially if its a better way to do something. Extraverted sensors like to tell stories. And will recall stories of what worked and didn't. Trial and error is sometimes their primary mode.

So it could have been your upbringing, not just solely personality type.

On the paranoia bit...

Eh I dunno. I think I would replace the word paranoia with care. Seems like someone With Se will wash the mold....but don't they care what the mold could do while they're touching or breathing it.

I just throw shit with mold on it out. Lol

But my ex ISFP used to wash that shit. Hell no.

actually this is probably me being an sp Dom... hmmm

Anyways my ISFJ friend would prolly throw it out too.

And my ESFP dad would have called me a scared -y cat lmao.

So in regards to the relationships and paranoia....

Ni can see where things are going.

Se is more like letting things come to them.

Its just 2 different sides. I know one's not better than the other, but in Se's way of not being proactive about where the relationship is going.. it makes it look like they don't care. That's what I meant.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Yes you are correct. It's also why P types often feel so confused at how Pi function can possibly work, because specific to general just seems completely backwards from an objective point of view. It shouldn't even work.

What I am saying though, is that at least for Ni, it's not impossible for us to explain how, even if it isn't perfect. It's often written as if it isn't possible.

It isn't impossible, but it's usually hard to objectify the information to others and nearly impossible (exaggeration) to be able to view the subjective understanding from a different perspective and explain it differently, for that is the cause of the infamous attempt to work backwards with the information and consequently not be able to understand it from the backwards perspective let alone relate it to others.

 

[valaki]

I don't really see a point.

The point seemed to be that it may not be Ni that you experience but some other factor.

ps: Not questioning your type, just the interpretation of that specific experience

 

[ndovjtjcaqidthi]

The point seemed to be that it may not be Ni that you experience but some other factor.

I mean the point, for me.

 

[valaki]

Well dishes probably depends on other factors...

(...)

Its just 2 different sides. I know one's not better than the other, but in Se's way of not being proactive about where the relationship is going.. it makes it look like they don't care. That's what I meant.

Lol I totally get what you mean. I like your analysis, makes sense. As for not caring, well it's really about not caring in that one given moment. I'm saying that in general, not sure what relationship you were referring to. Ohh and I relate to your ESFP dad

 

[valaki]

I mean the point, for me.

That is, you disagree with that other interpretation?

(Btw did you see the "ps" I added afterwards, to my previous post)