[INFJ] When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact

[Ginkgo]

i don't know if it is because of value, or because in close relationships we seem to go so far until it is over (and part of this also might be the e4 --> e2 stress point, where we lose ourselves and struggle feeling stuck in our identification with the other person, projecting all the while). i don't really see any clear instances of "doorslamming" in my past, i mean, i have breakups, and i'd tend to avoid certain people, but never have i just cut ties on a close relationship. i'd avoid explaining, at times, that the relationship wasn't for me what it was for the other person, and i do regret not being more straightforward or being more willing and more committed to finding an effective way to communicate that. i admit that part of it was my own unwillingness to be the bad guy, even if it was just in someone else's eyes. oftentimes, i didn't grasp my own needs, so i couldn't really do so in a non-violent way where i could both accept and respect us both, and allow that to be enough, with no quasi-absolute perspective to feel like i needed to orient towards. i may struggle to see and empathize with the other person through a major change in how i view a relationship. i knew an infj girl who i was friends with who, when she had found out that i had dated another girl in our class when we were friends in undergrad, seemed hurt and wouldn't really engage me after the fact. i think the unwillingness to even allow for explanations might be an Fe thing (i can imagine enfjs and entps, especially 3w4s who come to mind; more reason why to me it's part of the e4 disconnect ability). but the demand to control the explanation of what happened when we are hurt, when dammnit we need to come first, is not.

i do wonder too, because i'm relating to your posts a lot in this thread, whether you feel that some of the doorslam thing is in part an e4 phenomenon? one of my best friends is an infp 4w5 so/sx. he's told me stories about cutting ties, telling people off and distrusting them. i think he tells me this because i just get where it comes from, i too know what it's like (at least for the most part). it to me feels like something we can genuinely share. like the experience that we have to choose ourselves, because our shaming is piling up so fast we have to abandon one of us. i can't feel this way about myself any more, and i'm so angry that i do. the breaking point thing seems to be about the ability to suddenly disconnect from others. this feels vintage e4 to me.

as i've tried to say elsewhere, it might be a bit different in terms for an infj in that they may struggle even more so to feel in touch with their own needs. maybe we stay polite on the outer surface more. maybe we do not trust ourselves to be able to manage our own boundaries or trust ourselves to be able to say no. maybe we struggle to find the resources to know ourselves in a way that we can communicate effectively not just about what is happening but in terms of where we are at. that's a crucial difference.

what was your doorslam experience? from your description of the way you feel like you converse with infjs (the testing each other thing, which i know too, and i too know how it feels when it's overcome by trust), it's easier for me to trust how you represent the situation with the picture of your experience you paint. i did at least go into avoidance mode with one infp, a 4w5 so/sx. we both felt super distrustful of each other's motives, but at the same time, we had a lot to talk about. i think in that case our respective self-esteem issues conflicted. for me, there was some boundary violation and insinuation that made me feel uncomfortable. i kind of felt like i was a story he was researching for a writing project. like, when you respond, and theyre already in the middle of elaborating their next question to characterize you, and you're just exhausted by the feeling that something is being taken from you. and you don't even get to speak for yourself, directly. to be fair, i kinda think i get where he was coming from, but to offer to get to the center of that whirling blades machine was not feasible for me. i had my own shit to deal with that i wasn't doing very well with. and i think i did believe in the possibility of being direct with each other (and this difficulty being direct with each other, maybe more than anything, can be a frustration in the infj/infp dynamic).

eta: at least now, i'm starting to recognize that this quasi-absolute perspective to orient towards has to do with what i want to contribute to the world, what i believe in, and not what is inherently "right." it's not easy both grounding yourself and letting go of the foundationalist quality of belief at the same time. i think recognizing that there's more ways of being present in the situation is a good start.

Wow, even though I felt like my post didn't warrant such a thoughtful response, I appreciate the depth you've explored here.

I didn't consider the possibility that doorslamming was local to E4s more than it is INFJs. I know that I've dropped off the face of the earth for a few people once I realized that our values were in direct conflict with each other. My craving for personal integrity is practically married to the feeling that I may be inconsistent - I develop inconsistencies when I make undue sacrifices for others. I would associate this with my E2 disintegration point, where I lose myself for someone else and boundaries can no longer be salvageable. When this happens, I experience a reflexive counter-phobic urge to push back; given the context in which I may have sacrificed a lot for someone else, my behavior can seem like outright rebellion, when perhaps from a more objective POV, it's a long-overdue line to be drawn. There's definitely an element of spite and, if overthought, an element of vengeance and or personal justice. Most of these dynamics orbit around the desire to maintain my individuality, so the E4 denotation makes sense.

The picture I painted in my prior post actually alluded to an INTJ, but it still holds relevance to the discussion.

I'm not sure if, by "doorslam experience", you refer to just general doorslamming, or doorslamming done by INFJs, but I'll choose the former meaning, given that we're embarking on an alternative explanation for why doorslamming happens.

I think the first time I doorslammed someone, it was in gradeschool. I confided to him my personal crush after much diffidence, and he immediately bolted into a crowd of students, revealing the fact that I had feelings for this girl. Even though he was my best friend, I was mortified and no longer spoke with him afterward.

The second time was in High School - a close ENTP friend from middle school was heavily involved with substance abuse, and by simply hearing about his shenanigans, I felt like I was forsaking my straight-edge values. I texted him about how I felt, because I couldn't really bring myself to verbally push back. I valued him as a friend too much to hurt him. He ignored my text and called me without any intent to explore the issue, so I cut off all contact despite his repeated attempts to engage.

Later in High School, I was involved with an INFJ who went on a spiritual journey with me, of sorts. We toyed around with the idea of marriage. At a certain point, I felt I couldn't keep up with her ambitious pursuit of what she considered to be The Truth. So, I told her that, deep down, I was having some doubts about what I had come to believe, and she herself fell off the face of the earth. I think I was expecting her to accept my lack of faith because I thought she loved me, but she wasn't having it. Eventually, we came to an uneasy agreement to maintain a level of friendship, but it didn't feel congruent to me, so I disappeared. She then made several calculated efforts to gain my favor, but I felt they were too contrived to rebuild what we had months prior. Things between us dissolved on every front. I experienced a lot of heartache throughout, and I think our relationship still effects something very integral to my psychological makeup to this day.

I'm sorry you had to deal with the feeling of being someone's research project.

 

[EcK]

Seriously, this thread (& others like it) become a platform for people to dissect the same highly subjective issue ad nauseum in a pseudo-categorical(...)

Bullshit and i ll give you highly specific personal examples to prove
The universality of my statements

 

[garbage]

I gotta say, this thread got a bunch of *cough* flags waved up all in our faces. Part of the mods' job is to peer around at the context behind the attention. Reading through, though, I can't make heads or tails of this one. Roger Rabbit smashing plates over his head for 10 minutes is a close approximation for what I'm seeing.

Regardless of what I do or don't think, though, y'all should know that we're gonna have to keep a bit of an eye out on this thread.

 

[21%]

I have no idea how this thread turned into what it is right now.

I've been with my INFP for 5 years under impossible circumstances, and we both have shed a lot of tears over minor hurts, major hurts, world-shattering hurts. We both did a lot of adjusting again and again until we both felt we could not bend anymore, and at times it is just impossible, but we've survived so far, so I guess I can say I have direct experience with bridging the INFP-INFJ differences.

I have one word to you all: there are three levels of intimacy between INFJ and INFP and only two of them work. First is the acquaintances/friends level -- you respect each other, take what they say at face value and believe them -- smooth relationship. Then there's the third level -- the intimate level -- family members, romantic partners -- where you have that blind trust that you are not trying to hurt each other, and you take things they say at face value and believe them. The 'middle level', however, can be problematic, because you seek to understand each other with out the 'respectful trust' of the first level and 'blind trust' of the third level, so you dig into the real differences, the incompatible viewpoints, and both of you think you're right and you have no idea why the other party just doesn't see it. Can't you see how cruel your behaviour is? How can you even say that?

That's how I feel. You will never be able to bring the other person to your side totally, you just have to accept that you love them and they love you, and that neither of you are wrong or inferior in any other way, and you learn to love them just like that. Then beautiful things can happen.

Over the years I've learned that to an INFP, INFJs are self-righteous, calculating, vindictive, stubborn, scheming little know-it-alls, and, guess what, compared to INFPs, we really are those things. It took a while for me to accept this. INFJs tend to be very hard on themselves and we try extremely hard to be fair and good and kind and ever-giving, but, I don't think we are any easier to deal with than any other types that we find 'infuriating'. And, yes, we have a way to make arguments perfectly logical and 'fair', and cold, but that's not what INFPs are looking for. If an INFP loves you, then they love you. That's it. That's the end, and that's all that matters. There's no appending clause of "and they will try their best to make you happy and sacrifice their happiness for you and blah blah blah" -- all this might very well be true, but it's not part of the condition in the first place. I feel that INFPs will never be entirely logical to INFJs, and that can be disconcerting. INFPs can say "I'm not obligated to stay with you" and that is extremely shocking to INFJs, because INFJs will feel a sense of obligation rising directly from feelings of love. For INFJs this "I will make you happy" directly follows from "I love you". It's one and the same entity. For INFPs, the "I love you" is just that. "I will make you happy" may result from it, but does not follow in a logical way like that. (And yes, this sense of obligation is terrifying for INFPs as well, because it's "You feel obligated to stay with me?" [shock and hurt follows])

I've tried and tried to explain this, but we have to in the end seek to 'give'. We give what we can, and don't judge what they give back. We treasure all the differences as a reminder that there are strange and beautiful and larger things outside of ourselves.

This probably has a lot of INFJ E4 flavor plus INFP E9 flavor, but that's how it is for me. You can never totally get it. To make it work at all you have to step back and just enjoy the dance.

There goes my probably unhelpful 2 cents

 

[Lexicon]

Bullshit and i ll give you highly specific personal examples to prove
The universality of my statements

I'll kick you, frenchbear.

*edit*
oh wait, I misread

(that's what I get for trying to multitask)

 

[Werebudgie]

Perhaps this analogy may help: There's background radiation and radio waves in our everyday environment that we cannot sense/perceive...Consider Ni as a receiver/detector tuned to pick up on that data (layer)...

Or a more metaphorical analogy would be Ni is gazing into the spirit realm...Is that analogous to the Ni layer that you were describing [MENTION=20789]Werebudgie[/MENTION] ?

The first piece about the background stuff in our everyday environment makes sense to me. One way I see it is this: there are 5 culturally recognized senses in the broad cultural context in which I live. Jung et al developed this cognitive function and MBTI system inside that broad cultural environment. In this context, the difference between intuition and sensing is a big huge distinction, and sensing is considered "picking up on reality" in a way that intuition isn't.

I suspect that in a cultural context in which other senses, and other layers of reality those senses perceive, were acknowledged as valid, the distinction possibly wouldn't be such a big deal.

I've been with my INFP for 5 years under impossible circumstances, and we both have shed a lot of tears over minor hurts, major hurts, world-shattering hurts. We both did a lot of adjusting again and again until we both felt we could not bend anymore, and at times it is just impossible, but we've survived so far, so I guess I can say I have direct experience with bridging the INFP-INFJ differences.

I have one word to you all: there are three levels of intimacy between INFJ and INFP and only two of them work. First is the acquaintances/friends level -- you respect each other, take what they say at face value and believe them -- smooth relationship. Then there's the third level -- the intimate level -- family members, romantic partners -- where you have that blind trust that you are not trying to hurt each other, and you take things they say at face value and believe them. The 'middle level', however, can be problematic, because you seek to understand each other with out the 'respectful trust' of the first level and 'blind trust' of the third level, so you dig into the real differences, the incompatible viewpoints, and both of you think you're right and you have no idea why the other party just doesn't see it. Can't you see how cruel your behaviour is? How can you even say that?

That's how I feel. You will never be able to bring the other person to your side totally, you just have to accept that you love them and they love you, and that neither of you are wrong or inferior in any other way, and you learn to love them just like that. Then beautiful things can happen.

Speaking as an INFJ in a 4 year relationship with an INFP - and we have had tons and tons of real world external stressors, possibly akin to near-impossible circumstances - this description really interesting to me! We got serious very quickly, and had lots of clashes from that space ... and as I read the above description I was thinking: Could it be that for however long, we were trying to do intense life-intertwined intimacy from that middle level? That could explain some things. Really really interesting food for thought.

eta: You mentioned enneagram. I'm 6w5, and she's 9w8. FWIW.

To make it work at all you have to step back and just enjoy the dance.

That resonates for me.

There goes my probably unhelpful 2 cents

It was helpful for me, at least.

[MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION]:

Just for observation sake, do you know how I read this: "I'm having an unpleasant reaction to you. This must be your fault."

This is what I mean about seeing other people as the source of disconnection. It's also that strange amnesia thing I mentioned. Don't you recall an entire thread worth of interacting pleasantly with PB? Things are disintegrating now, but surely that doesn't undo everything that happened before.

I'm not saying you have to get along at all times, but I just don't get where this comes from. Sorry, if this seems like an attack.

It doesn't seem to me like an attack.

As for not getting where this comes from: On the visible levels, you did miss some of the non-public data (for example, I was initially contacted by PB via PM and in that exchange began to see some underneath patterns in how she was trying to engage with me) and you certainly weren't privy to my internal tracking process or my dialogue with my INFP partner.

There are also the data offered by some other people in this thread, but I imagine you have a different read on those data than I do.

When it comes to "now vs before": I can say that for me it wasn't a simple linear chronological trajectory at all - there were layers happening simultaneously.

Re: your read on my words (seeing someone else as the source of how I experience them): for me, in a description like that, I use the word "feeling" to describe a visceral kind of sense-perception. In other words: the word "feeling" as I use it there names a way that Ni-Se communicates information to me about what is actually happening.

Linking back to our dialogue thus far about Ni and your plane metaphor etc: I don't expect you to trust me on this, and I won't ask you to try to see what I'm picking up here. We're not in any sort of relationship in which such trust on your part would make sense. From my end, that doesn't change that I am picking up what I am picking up and seeing a certain configuration here using that (Ni-Se perception) as some of the data. Seems to me that we (you and I) are extremely unlikely to come to consensus on this, and I'm actually really ok with that. One way I see it is this: Whatever the actual reality is, I think reality itself has its own grounded power beyond wordplay, arguments, interpretations, perspectives, etc. At my core, I do trust that power - quite a bit in fact

 

[yeghor]

You've reiterated the point that INFJs apparently attempt to emotionally manipulate using others' words vis-a-vis declaring the other author's context or intent. Do you do this for them as a courtesy? Why do you say this.

Put another way, spelling out or typing words limits understanding. As an emotional person it should be easier to you to understand that you can't tell what anybody is saying and if can't hear them.

This has less to do with me and more to do with the fact that Pi Ji is virtually blind. Typing letters has an inherent limit on understanding. That should be plain.

Currently this site is a forum and includes public expression. Contributing to it surely wouldn't be seen as trying to limit someone. Would it? Maybe you project your opinion onto what others are doing while disregarding question. That is one way of reminding people whats been said is too much work to sort out and I think you'll find others bugging out of conversations if you lay judgement hastily without careful judgement of what's transpired.

2 cents given.

From what I understood [MENTION=8031]Ginkgo[/MENTION] was talking about how the discussion may get tainted with and tangled up in emotional context when it is about emotionally invested personal issues...

Yeah, when personal values are your first priority, and you're at odds with someone, handling the situation can become twisted in its deliberation.

Yeah, seems like delusion stemming from pride or something.

There are so many details and descriptions being attempted and you people need to know that spelling everything out has its limits.

In reference to his/her quote, I thought you were coming from where Gingko left off and criticizing the posters that somethings (when emotionally volatile) be better left alone and not spelled out...

I didn't try to emotionally manipulate you...Those were legitimate questions that popped into my mind...By voicing them out for clarification, I've found out that I've misunderstood your comment...that I was mistaken...

What you've meant (as it became clearer in your second post) language (especially in written form) has its limits when conveying one's ideas and thoughts...? So by interpreting a fundamentally incomplete (or subjective?) data (and asking for clarification to make it more complete), some INFJs in the thread are getting ahead of themselves (out of pride/arrogance)? We might as well leave the forum altogether...?

That may drive some people away from me as you suggest but that is a risk I am willing to take...And please contemplate on whether you acted the same way that you accused me of doing in your quoted post...

Sorry for the misunderstanding [MENTION=6037]Winds of Thor[/MENTION]...My bad...

***********

About the thread:

The thread's suddenly become much more crowded...At the risk of sounding paranoid, why did you (relatively at this specific moment) newcomers opted to participate all of a sudden at this exact (pivotal?) moment? This doesn't mean you shouldn't have...just curious why now? And were you silently observing the discussion all along or were you alerted to something somehow?

If it felt to you like we were ganging up on [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] and you felt for whatever reason a need to rush to her rescue and support, please really do contemplate whether you may inadvertantly be enabling her and preventing her from confronting her hurt by acting as proxies...

 

[mariya]

Hello

I am an infj with problems with infp friend.shes so emotional that I feel like thinking 100 times before I talk and its like walking on egg shells.
she believes in this theory of karma or reincarnation and argue argue and use force also me to believe this.
its pathetic I say.easy outburst of anger ,when I give suggestions for her to move out of self pity or loneliness thing,she feels controlled.
much positive energy is gone.i have taken some space from her for a month.i feel so fresh with other people.

why do INFPs feel like a martyr?is it low self worth?

 

[yeghor]

Hello

I am an infj with problems with infp friend.shes so emotional that I feel like thinking 100 times before I talk and its like walking on egg shells.
she believes in this theory of karma or reincarnation and argue argue and use force also me to believe this.
its pathetic I say.easy outburst of anger ,when I give suggestions for her to move out of self pity or loneliness thing,she feels controlled.
much positive energy is gone.i have taken some space from her for a month.i feel so fresh with other people.

why do INFPs feel like a martyr?is it low self worth?

 

[yeghor]

Wow, even though I felt like my post didn't warrant such a thoughtful response, I appreciate the depth you've explored here.

I didn't consider the possibility that doorslamming was local to E4s more than it is INFJs. I know that I've dropped off the face of the earth for a few people once I realized that our values were in direct conflict with each other. My craving for personal integrity is practically married to the feeling that I may be inconsistent - I develop inconsistencies when I make undue sacrifices for others. I would associate this with my E2 disintegration point, where I lose myself for someone else and boundaries can no longer be salvageable. When this happens, I experience a reflexive counter-phobic urge to push back; given the context in which I may have sacrificed a lot for someone else, my behavior can seem like outright rebellion, when perhaps from a more objective POV, it's a long-overdue line to be drawn. There's definitely an element of spite and, if overthought, an element of vengeance and or personal justice. Most of these dynamics orbit around the desire to maintain my individuality, so the E4 denotation makes sense.

The picture I painted in my prior post actually alluded to an INTJ, but it still holds relevance to the discussion.

I'm not sure if, by "doorslam experience", you refer to just general doorslamming, or doorslamming done by INFJs, but I'll choose the former meaning, given that we're embarking on an alternative explanation for why doorslamming happens.

I think the first time I doorslammed someone, it was in gradeschool. I confided to him my personal crush after much diffidence, and he immediately bolted into a crowd of students, revealing the fact that I had feelings for this girl. Even though he was my best friend, I was mortified and no longer spoke with him afterward.

The second time was in High School - a close ENTP friend from middle school was heavily involved with substance abuse, and by simply hearing about his shenanigans, I felt like I was forsaking my straight-edge values. I texted him about how I felt, because I couldn't really bring myself to verbally push back. I valued him as a friend too much to hurt him. He ignored my text and called me without any intent to explore the issue, so I cut off all contact despite his repeated attempts to engage.

Later in High School, I was involved with an INFJ who went on a spiritual journey with me, of sorts. We toyed around with the idea of marriage. At a certain point, I felt I couldn't keep up with her ambitious pursuit of what she considered to be The Truth. So, I told her that, deep down, I was having some doubts about what I had come to believe, and she herself fell off the face of the earth. I think I was expecting her to accept my lack of faith because I thought she loved me, but she wasn't having it. Eventually, we came to an uneasy agreement to maintain a level of friendship, but it didn't feel congruent to me, so I disappeared. She then made several calculated efforts to gain my favor, but I felt they were too contrived to rebuild what we had months prior. Things between us dissolved on every front. I experienced a lot of heartache throughout, and I think our relationship still effects something very integral to my psychological makeup to this day.

I'm sorry you had to deal with the feeling of being someone's research project.

Thanks for your contribution Ginkgo... It's these Si narratives that I've been hoping for...Thru these narratives I can see what went wrong with much more ease...

 

[Southern Kross]

Hey Southern Kross,

I'm not sure if we have the same thing in mind or not, but I'm going to throw a hypothesis out there and you can tell me what it looks like from your vantage point.

I'm wondering if Fe tends to look for agreeable, common ground to establish relationship and goodwill and then moves towards areas of difference as the relationship or discussion progresses, while Fi Te goes at it from the opposite: disagreement to common ground.

I find disagreement much less jarring and personal feeling once I have established some history with the other person and have more context to know where they are coming from. Disagreement from a stranger or an acquaintance feels more unsettling because there is no context to interpret it with. I actually am unlikely to express disagreement with someone unless there is a very compelling reason, or if I have enough history with the person that I think they'll know where I'm coming from and our relationship can take it. It's a compliment of sorts to trust someone with the weight of the potentially negative.

I'm wondering whether Fi Te sees disagreement moving towards agreement as a more workable model. Does that ring true for you, or no?

I have some ideas that I know would not go over well with some people on the forum. I am not ashamed of them, but neither do I feel it is useful to draw attention to our differences first, before they know where I am coming from and I have enough background information to know their views and better make sense of why we've arrived at very different conclusions.

How do you feel about that sort of thing?

Yes, this seems pretty accurate and an interesting insight. I still need to mull it over but it fits with what I'm seeing and experiencing. Note: I'm not sure if I am more focussed on a sort of consensus because I'm a So-dom - ie. I'm not totally sure if all NFPs would feel the same. I also would emphasize that "workable model" is the goal for Fi-Te, not necessarily literal agreement. I'm OK with ending up in "disagreement" per se, but I need to reconcile the divergence. In other words, the difference in conclusion has to fit into a model I understand. I have to be able to explain why things are different and for that to fit together in a cohesive way.

I didn't realise INFJs feel like that about disagreement. I assumed Fe enjoys consensus, so that if you were in a good place, you would naturally seek it out. This certainly puts things in a different light...

Do you think that is down to the nature of the Judging functions in general? Je needs external cohesion, but Ji is OK with deviation as long as it's internally consistent, And their order effects the progression a person prefers in life, as you move from your natural J function towards your less natural one: Je-Ji moves from cohesion to divergence, whereas Ji-Je does the reverse. I never thought of people as moving down their function order as a way of making sense of things - it seems backwards. I guess it's like shifting from the surface (of your consciousness) to the depths (of the unconscious), but maybe that's what we want - maybe that's how we infuse something meaningful into our being.

It makes me think of something I observed in my ISFJ mum, which fits with things I've heard other FJs say too. She really likes reading Jodi Picoult books and how they deal with complex morality. If you're unfamiliar with them (I've never really read them), she writes stories about an intense event (or series of events) from multiple character perspectives, unveiling deeper moral dilemmas/questions as the story progresses. My mum just loves how it sets up all these assumptions in her mind at the start about who's at fault and what people should have done, and then as the story develops and more perspectives are revealed, these assumptions are totally challenged and undermined. My mum is left feeling really conflicted at the end, not knowing who to blame or what was the right thing to do. She finds that thrilling and challenging, but I've never really got what the fuss was about. That stuff doesn't really interest me, because how she feels at end is how I start off feeling at the beginning; that's just obvious stuff to me, so that journey is dull as hell. I like narrative journeys where evaluations come full circle and connect back together in a whole new form.

And the strange thing is it's not like my mum has a preference for open-endedness and me for closure, because I know the complete opposite is true. I don't know how that fits into the picture. Perhaps I like open-endedness when it comes to the Perceptual elements but closure in the Judging ones. Perhaps there's a Perception equivalent to the Judging form of it (ie. Pe moving to Pi and vice versa)

Lots to think about...

 

[Fidelia]

I think that as much as I like consensus, I also value authenticity in myself and vulnerability that fosters closeness. I am just selective about who I do that with and to what extent. Being sensitive to disagreement and criticism myself, it takes some time to determine if I am perceiving correctly, if I have done everything on my end to change the situation before disturbing someone else with it and then determining whether bringing it up will lead to better understanding/outcome, or a whole lot more white noise to sort through later. I usually only will do that under extreme provocation, when I can extrapolate what kind of reaction to expect or if I'm involved enough with the person (professionally, familiarly, romantically) that the problem cannot be ignored or worked around. Because Ti is so detail oriented, and Ni generates so many possibilities, I often need to keep coming back to talk about stuff till all the details are sorted and laid to rest. This is tedious even for me, so there are only select people I'd want to do it with and only when I have to. I hate being misinterpreted as overly sensitive, nitpicky, or unforgiving, but I've learned that without dealing with those questions that come up, there is no long term resolution. What looks like going backsies is actually trying to figure out a practical form of resolution.

That is why the people closest to me might see me as giving acquaintance friends a free pass for the same stuff that I would really be bothered with by them. It seems unfair to them, but an acquaintance friend is someone I can avoid or that I'm not affected by emotionally in the same sense.

Like you though, I dislike no resolution. I do find though that if I have the answer to the whys of people acting as they do or the motivation fueling their interaction, it ceases to bother me in the same way. Once I know what is causing me to have strong gut level feeling, or understand the situation properly, I feel an incredible sense of internal resolution even if nothing has changed otherwise.

 

[Werebudgie]

[MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION]:

Instead of waiting to see if this becomes even more explicitly relevant or drops away, I'm going to share it now - in hopes that it is more useful for you to have it explicit earlier than later (at the very least to help you decide if it's worth putting any time and energy into dialogue with me in general, or about particular topics).

I've been thinking about our dialogue thus far specifically as it relates to my own Ni-Se perception. I've realized through reflection and another dialogue that it's important for me to distinguish between two very different kinds of conversations related to that Ni-Se perception. I'm thinking about it like this: There are two ways to approach the discussion of Ni-Se gut feelings in INFJs in general, or in me in particular:

1. Using this question as a primary focal point: "Is this [Ni-Se] perception picking up something real?"

-vs-

2. Assuming that the Ni-Se perception is picking up something real, and seeking to understand what's going on with that Ni-Se information as part of the information available.

These two approaches yield two very different conversations.

My current understanding is that you tend not to trust Ni-Se perception as a real information source in a general sense. My current understanding is that while you might accept it as such under certain circumstances (some of which you've described in our dialogue), your approach to it would be more in line with conversation #1.

It also seems to me that from your vantage point (and you can correct me if I'm inaccurate here) if an INFJ is simply unwilling to have conversation #1, you feel that there's something wrong with how the INFJ is interacting.

So here's the thing with me in particular:

When I'm working with Ni-Se perception as part of the mix, I find myself increasingly disinterested in having conversation #1, and far more interested in conversation #2. This goes along with my trajectory of moving away from my own distrust in my Ni-Se perception, and moving toward trusting it as real, valid and actionable information. For me, this trajectory is truly and quite deeply a matter of movement toward being more centered and well in my life.

To the extent that you would call on me to engage in conversation #1 with you (or others), and to the extent that you would define my willingness to engage in conversation #1 as a good and even necessary thing ... I realize I'm really not interested in putting more energy into that kind of interaction.

I will certainly understand if that makes a lot of our conversation threads into dead ends. But it is where I'm at. And to be clear, I'm not going to ask you to shift into willingness for conversation #2, because from everything I can tell, it's just not where you're at. Which is just as valid for you. I will say that I'd be delighted to interact with you in the context of conversation #2 if you ever assess that it's well and right for you to participate from that space in interaction with me. But whatever the case, I'm do want to be clear now that not going to put more energy into conversation #1 dialogue/interaction at this point in time.

All of that that said, I still very much appreciate all of the dialogue we've had up to this point, even on stuff that I'll no longer be engaged with from this point forward. Even though I don't agree with where you're coming from for my own self, I respect that it is right for you. I have zero bad feelings about any of this on my end.

 

[the state i am in]

I have no idea how this thread turned into what it is right now.

I've been with my INFP for 5 years under impossible circumstances, and we both have shed a lot of tears over minor hurts, major hurts, world-shattering hurts. We both did a lot of adjusting again and again until we both felt we could not bend anymore, and at times it is just impossible, but we've survived so far, so I guess I can say I have direct experience with bridging the INFP-INFJ differences.

I have one word to you all: there are three levels of intimacy between INFJ and INFP and only two of them work. First is the acquaintances/friends level -- you respect each other, take what they say at face value and believe them -- smooth relationship. Then there's the third level -- the intimate level -- family members, romantic partners -- where you have that blind trust that you are not trying to hurt each other, and you take things they say at face value and believe them. The 'middle level', however, can be problematic, because you seek to understand each other with out the 'respectful trust' of the first level and 'blind trust' of the third level, so you dig into the real differences, the incompatible viewpoints, and both of you think you're right and you have no idea why the other party just doesn't see it. Can't you see how cruel your behaviour is? How can you even say that?

That's how I feel. You will never be able to bring the other person to your side totally, you just have to accept that you love them and they love you, and that neither of you are wrong or inferior in any other way, and you learn to love them just like that. Then beautiful things can happen.

Over the years I've learned that to an INFP, INFJs are self-righteous, calculating, vindictive, stubborn, scheming little know-it-alls, and, guess what, compared to INFPs, we really are those things. It took a while for me to accept this. INFJs tend to be very hard on themselves and we try extremely hard to be fair and good and kind and ever-giving, but, I don't think we are any easier to deal with than any other types that we find 'infuriating'. And, yes, we have a way to make arguments perfectly logical and 'fair', and cold, but that's not what INFPs are looking for. If an INFP loves you, then they love you. That's it. That's the end, and that's all that matters. There's no appending clause of "and they will try their best to make you happy and sacrifice their happiness for you and blah blah blah" -- all this might very well be true, but it's not part of the condition in the first place. I feel that INFPs will never be entirely logical to INFJs, and that can be disconcerting. INFPs can say "I'm not obligated to stay with you" and that is extremely shocking to INFJs, because INFJs will feel a sense of obligation rising directly from feelings of love. For INFJs this "I will make you happy" directly follows from "I love you". It's one and the same entity. For INFPs, the "I love you" is just that. "I will make you happy" may result from it, but does not follow in a logical way like that. (And yes, this sense of obligation is terrifying for INFPs as well, because it's "You feel obligated to stay with me?" [shock and hurt follows])

I've tried and tried to explain this, but we have to in the end seek to 'give'. We give what we can, and don't judge what they give back. We treasure all the differences as a reminder that there are strange and beautiful and larger things outside of ourselves.

This probably has a lot of INFJ E4 flavor plus INFP E9 flavor, but that's how it is for me. You can never totally get it. To make it work at all you have to step back and just enjoy the dance.

There goes my probably unhelpful 2 cents

i really like your point about trust. in some sense, trust does not have to be a product of understanding, nor does it have to be a product of empathy. it can also come from accepting that in relationships our faith and our capacity to love, brought about and stretched through the way we have worked together to give each other what we could and appreciated what we received from that, allowing that to grow for the both of us, and the way through giving and receiving that we've shared so much and been able to bring each other into ourselves in that way, is based on what is true for us. when we can find that self-trust, we can love regardless. those other aspects are amazing to experience (sharing understanding, sharing empathy), but they don't substitute for the deeper, wholly integrated sense of what love is. together, they're just the center of it, as it emerges when we share ourselves with each other as we are.

 

[Werebudgie]

i really like your point about trust. in some sense, trust does not have to be a product of understanding, nor does it have to be a product of empathy. it can also come from accepting that in relationships our faith and our capacity to love, brought about and stretched through the way we have worked together to give each other what we could and appreciated what we received from that, allowing that to grow for the both of us, and the way through giving and receiving that we've shared so much and been able to bring each other into ourselves in that way, is based on what is true for us. when we can find that self-trust, we can love regardless. those other aspects are amazing to experience (sharing understanding, sharing empathy), but they don't substitute for the deeper, wholly integrated sense of what love is. together, they're just the center of it, as it emerges when we share ourselves with each other as we are.

the state i am in: You just put words to my incoherent background reflections on this topic as I mulled over that truly great post from [MENTION=6971]21%[/MENTION] that you quote. I was asking myself, "But, okay, so really ... what IS trust in that third level?" ^ ^ This quote from you - this is it ^ ^. This is what I have been trying to find words for in myself. Thank you so much. I can't adequately express how much I appreciate it.

 

[1487610420]

I responded to the portion I quoted. I don't like the assertion that everything is a projection. We're not *always* reacting to projections. As Freud said: "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." There's an objective reality out there, and we're responding to that reality as well as experiencing our own fears.

And I/others need to care about what you like because? You just demonstrated an example off projecting needs onto others. Do not wish to enable that, just wanted to point it out.

 

[Southern Kross]

I really feel that a major key for me is centering in and trusting my own Ni-Se perception as much as possible - rather than allowing Fe-aux to initially stream external material into me as automatically legitimate in the first place. As I mentioned in some other comment recently, in me Ni-Se lies underneath consciousness and in my case often calls for action before conscious comprehension, with conscious comprehension coming later. If I trusted my perception more deeply, my initial action/interaction could be in line that perception much more quickly, I wouldn't have to go through the arduous Fe-Ti process to get back to that perception. I suspect that in that state, I wouldn't give off that initial sense of agreement as I tried to figure it all out consciously/analytically.

So I think that me moving further and further into trusting my Ni-Se perception would benefit anyone who has to deal with the pattern you find so bewildering etc and also benefit me (of course. So for me, it's back to my perspective that at this point in my life, I really want and need my personal connections to be with people who can support me in trusting my Ni-Se perception.

The question I'm working on now is: precisely what would it mean for someone to "support me in trusting my Ni-Se perception"? What do I mean by that, what is that and isn't that, in real terms? I don't have clear answers yet but it's something I'm really attending to and asking myself these days, and I'm heading toward clarity on it.

Interesting. It does seem like something that would be helpful. I also wonder about how to support that.

I don't know Inception. I'm wary about the Matrix as a way to talk about it because I feel like there's so much other theory/philosophy/ideology packed into that story, so much cultural symbolism and stuff about superiority and "the one" and tons of other stuff, that I worry it would blur things up in some ways I wouldn't be able to articulate without a painstaking analysis process that I don't have energy for now (if ever). Frustrating, but this is how my mind works.

That's OK. I just thought it might help.

I wonder if at some levels, it's something that just won't translate. I wonder if my description of the landscape discussion I had with my INFP partner might be of any use - not so much to translate my reality, but to get at some differences between Fi and Ni in relation to landscapes:

That makes sense.

I guess the Fi part is true of me (I'll have to think more on that, though). But I would add that I see all people as having an inner organic landscape too, and perhaps it's totally imperceptible to them, and/or it is less intricately fused to their being. So even though you move to other landscapes there's still a meta-landscape inside you. I also can have awareness on other people's inner organic landscape too. I can 'psychicly' transfer myself to them, whilst remaining bodily in my own - like channelling in reverse (ie. I'm being channelled into their's, not them into mine). Over time I become aware of the many inner landscapes, the patterns of them, and that the stuff that makes up my landscape is also common to others - so in a sense the building blocks are pre-existing and are not simply made by individual human beings. So I understand the sense that Ni landscapes exist even without you being them, because I can feel an approximate thing.

Well, the one word I would quibble with is remembering (so this may get in the way of the Si-based understanding). I write music also, and for me it's more like finding the tune and lyrics than remembering. However! That said ... removing any assumption of linear time (and linear time is not the primary mode of time in my Ni landscape), it could be the same thing. Remembering is the same as finding if time is a coordinate in the landscape. And I bet that really helped with the translation (not). Sorry!

Yes, I think it still fits; it's like accessing inner knowledge of the path. With Si that means trying to recall what it looked like, but with Ni it's like intuiting/foreseeing it, yet it already exists in your mind's eye and you're merely having to discover/uncover it. In both cases it's like the path was always there; there's just a mental strain involved to consciously perceive and reveal it.

The musician probably put it better than I did and I'm misquoting him.

How old are you? She's in her 40s, as am I. When she spoke about it, it felt to me like a carefully considered choice on her part rather than a lack of development. But who knows what will emerge for her or for me in our respective centering trajectories.

I'm 30. Usually Te is a thing that starts to properly develop in an INFP's 20s. Seeing your partner is past that stage, I must be just misunderstanding her thought process.

Interesting. I still feel like I don't get it because I read that and all I can think is OMFG NE IS SO FREAKING ADORABLE! *hug hug hug* My response is clearly not helpful to analytical understanding.

I'm glad you find it so.

It's a bit like Fi has a sensation and then Ne just runs around trying to please it. Ne just loves everything Fi has to say. It gets all excited and starts babbling about all the ideas that it inspired. Fi then gets a great feeling in return, because it sparks more interesting sensations.

It's unfortunate you feel uneasy about your partner's Fi. It's hard to meaningfully describe the beauty of Fi in a way you could relate to, but I'll try:

Do you know that feeling when you hear a piece of music that really affects you intensely? That sensation of shivers passing all through you and the hair all over your body standing on end? How it accesses something deep inside you and the world recedes? How in that moment it has given you a true sense of something greater and more fundamental; a sense of beauty and meaning so wonderful and revelatory that you could almost cry? That's Fi feels like. Of course it's to varying degrees, depending on the circumstances.

So Fi and Ne can be like combining revelation and inspiration, then feeding the two endlessly back into each other. That can create all sorts of warm and fuzzy feelings.

Do you mean

1. Me as Ni/the INxJ in that scenario? Or

2. My experience with Ni in myself?

The answer to both is no.

I'll assume for now it's the first one (correct me if I'm wrong and I'll address the second one next time around).

I found the InxJ/Ni character in that dialogue to be far far more forceful than I would feel comfortable with. That person seems to trust their Ni perception a LOT more than I do, and is practically (or actually) imposing it on another person. I don't like that.

I can relate to see the storm and being told that it isn't happening. But in my case, I've tended to let myself get over-ridden, and I've far more often gone down with the other person in the plane, or tried to come up with a solution within what they can actually see and acknowledge (which also has often ended in the plane going down).

I hear you.

I agree that it's very rarely that forceful, but there can be a lesser form of that. I used hyperbole to get the point across. I suppose the extreme would also be a situation where a INxJ is fully committed to their perception, or is somehow compelled into action.

Someone trying to force their perspective into action affecting both of you, and not requiring your explicit consent and trust before taking over like that on something that you don't see? I think a lot of people would be resistant to that.

I used to hope that my INFP would simply trust that I had something real to contribute from this perception of mine that she can't see the way I do, and would be willing to use this as a resource in difficult situations. That kind of trust has been elusive, however, and I really don't feel comfortable forcing it as in your description. She really needs to see it for herself, come to her own conclusions. I don't see her letting go of that and I don't know that it would be a good thing if she did.

From what I can see at this point in time, things seem to work best between us when we each focus on developing and maintaining our respective (true) strengths, and when we each bring as much clarity and centeredness and wellness as possible into our shared endeavors. That's where we are best able to develop real trust in each other. Very different from that scenario you describe, IMO, and very different from me second-guessing myself the way I have in the other direction.

Thanks for this answer. It helps to hear you detail this.

So do you feel a conscious awareness of a need to balance your trust in your perceptions with respecting people's own path? Do you sometimes let the plane crash rather than risk stepping in and upsetting people?

I guess I feel like I already knew some about the INFP side of that scenario from how my partner has responded when I simply bring up Ni information that she can't see and call for us to use that information in our decisions. She generally refuses and needs to get her own information/use her own perspective to choose her actions.

The only thing I know about getting around these problems is back to: I need to better trust my own Ni-Se perception and act from that space. If that ends up meaning that my partner just can't deal with me, or I can't deal with her, I will need to accept that. However, it seems to me that when I am clear and centered, she tends to respond with support and respect. Not always, but a lot of the time. It's when I'm in that second-guessing/don't understand struggle that things seem to automatically get bad between us. (though again, this is an evolving process and understanding for me, so this is just a snapshot of my perspective right now)

Again interesting. So do you feel like if you are fully aligned with your organic landscape things will fall naturally into place (for you and others)? Is it just a matter of tuning that alignment for clarity to emerge?

It's to do with my partner's personal struggles that affected our lives. For some time, I was trying to deal with it, solve it somehow. About a year ago, I finally realized what should have been obvious to me all along but wasn't: she needs to deal with this stuff in her own way in her own time. The difficulty for me was that both our lives were being harmed by some of her choices about if and when and how to deal with stuff - which they have been in some significant ways in the past. And I am enneagram 6 and there has been some very real scary "physical survival for us both" stuff that has happened. That said, my lived experience at this point is that backing off and trusting that she knows how she needs to move has had very clear outcome advantages over my painful (to us both) attempt to push the issues. I can easily function as an obstacle when I don't step back and allow her to move in her own way at her own pace etc.

eta: But I also need to find ways for her choices not to be running our lives in ways that affect me negatively. That's the sticky part given my tendency to get gravitationally pulled into her landscape.

Yeah, I can see both sides of that. When things are going wrong, it is difficult to know how much you should help direct that person and how much you should let them go in the wrong direction (in hopes that they'll eventually figure it out) - especially if it effects you too.

Hmmm. The other thought I had to your question, SK, was that when I have an initial reaction and haven't determined what reasoning backs up the feeling or if I am undecided, my default is to override myself in favour of the other person's perspective. However, if upon further reflection, something else starts to emerge that brings it into a different focus, then I may backtrack, looking for an argument that settles those questions, or confirming my newer opinion. It is reliant on feedback - I find it hard to make that process happen internally, because I need outer feedback to disprove or confirm my thoughts. I would consider those opinions like concrete that is poured, but still malleable.

Don't know if that is informative or not.

Could you provide a example or analogy for that? I can't totally grasp how that works.

I agree with Werebudgie that Ni isn't likely to take control of the plane, even if it is persistent and convinced of its own rightness based on factors that the other person doesn't readily see. Until I have gotten older, I think I myself even overrode a lot of my Ni gut feelings or projections of the future because I couldn't articulate the reasons for them at the time. I can see how I could be perceived as being rigid or immoveable though and sometimes I do forget to explain Ni observations that affect my decision making because I over assume that other people see the same stuff. I'm getting better now at recognizing other people's processes and who might wish for the chain of intermediate steps to support my present proposed course of action.

Yes, but sometimes the other person can feel the INxJ's hand on the yoke, even if when the INXJ thinks they're not interfering. Subtle efforts from you guys might be softly spoken, but can echo much louder in the ears the other person. That's partly what I want to get across. The INXJ in the analogy might think they're just gently persuading the pilot, and not taking over at all; and people who process things similarly might agree, if they were to observe it. But other people that are more sensitive and conscious of the elements in play, may see it as grossly invasive or bullying. I'm not saying that either the pilot or the INXJ are to blame for the mismatch - it's just the way things are sometimes.

 

[Southern Kross]

Perhaps this analogy may help: There's background radiation and radio waves in our everyday environment that we cannot sense/perceive...Consider Ni as a receiver/detector tuned to pick up on that data (layer)...

Or a more metaphorical analogy would be Ni is gazing into the spirit realm...Is that analogous to the Ni layer that you were describing Werebudgie ?

These metaphors help, thanks.

I think one my coworkers is an ISFP...My main mode of establishing bond and rapport with other people is offering them practical help (Fe?) when I sense that they are distressed somehow...With this coworker, that has proved to trigger a resistance in her as if she was trying to retain/maintain her independence/autonomy...She may also have seen me not reliable enough yet...

So whenever I see her in distress now, I just ask her if there's anything I can help with or just drop a suggestion that I think may prove to be helpful and leave her alone to think on it herself...?

I may become more assertive/insistent if my job description, jurisdiction or responsibilities somehow create an overlap with hers that allow/dictate me to interfere...otherwise it's entirely up to her to make up her own mind...

That's probably best, yes. It would help practically and it would help her to feel supported. Just being reminded that another person is there for you whenever you might need them can be very comforting and enabling. If you want to be a bit more involved, do it in baby steps and test the water at each stage.

Se user also like to go through the motions themselves BTW, so it could make her more resistant to theoretical guidance.

i get you. the overarching comprehension is part of the F blessing and curse. but it also challenges the communication process when we need to get down to the nitty gritty. if we can at least recognize how T can assist us in owning and relating to our own emotions well, then we can be realistic on our selves behalf.

i feel like we need to use some kind of digital illustrator to articulate how the different information structures of cognitive functions move and flow, how we can grasp the shape of them in process and the quality of their pattern. to feel solidly engaged, T needs something it can objectively observe, something it can visualize. i appreciate the attempt at describing what it feels like to you.

Absolutely.

i hear you. i admit i struggle to not get caught up in the speculative e5 explanation game when there's joint work to be done that requires more direct action. the deep underlying Ti need of inquiry, when coupled with iNtuition (and mental glulttony), is not easy for me to let go of. i get distracted really easily, and can just sit and talk with ntps about math, or dharma, or the mechanics of team-building in nba basketball for days on end.

i also recognize that while it's just enjoyable on the one hand, on the other, it allows me to misrecognize myself, to not own my needs and recognize that those are the beginnings for how i can non-violently communicate with and ultimately relate to others. it can be a way of focusing on what i deem right rather than truly owning what i need. this is not easy for the Fe-Ti types of the world. rightness is a big part of how we naturally operate. in its own balancing act, it requires Fe consideration for how you treat others with respect while following the way of right. at the same time, being able to find and connect with personal need, which is what i feel the Fi perspective is, offers a different way of loving yourself and loving others. it's incredibly refreshing.

"Owning your needs" is such a great phrase. Yes, that's very much it. I appreciate that this is hard for you guys. I just think that when things get tense and emotional, FJs may need to stop and consult their feelings a little more. Even if the resulting conclusion is merely, "I'm confused and unhappy with how this is going, but I'm not sure why", then that's enough. I find that quite disarming. It makes me want to give that person more leeway and consideration.

can you give an example or two? if you can find something from my own posts, that would be best, because i am willing to hear that.

All the instances the immediately spring to mind are of other people's posts, and I'm circumspect about hanging them out to dry without their permission. Sorry. I've just been having a conversation in private messages with Yeghor about how useless I am with going back and detailing the Perceptive thought process. I don't take mental notes along the way - I react and move forward, without noting the details of the connection itself. I do wish I could help you out. I realise it's pretty shitty really to say that stuff and not back it up.

for me, it just comes down to finding balanced perspective. i want to show you the advantages and disadvantages. the strengths and not just own the weaknesses. i want to feel that i am appreciated for who i am and that all strengths and specializations offer trade-offs (and this is where Te drives me fucking mad! because i don't feel heard); nothing can be perfect or complete, as much as my ego wishes i could be, when it can find no freedom from giving up itself so that it can receive from others more freely. i recognize too that this is partly my own shame mechanism in action. the other is the maybe higher level of formality, of identified with the overtly expressed, than an Fi type needs. you can see it all over this thread. as infj, i want you to tell me what you heard. that is a big part of how i feel connected to you, and how i navigate my own sense of the relationship.

and as an e5, that balanced perspective that i am always searching for and resting on is addicted to being comprehensive. meanwhile, a Te critique is generally more about the moment and more about setting forth a claim with immediate provability. it's difficult for me to give up the holism of Fe for that, my sense of what is beautiful and what is ecological. Te without the rich infp context you bring to it doesn't really connect for me unless you can share the context even more than the judgment.

I can respect that.

you sound like my adviser.

i know it's more work, but if you can find an example, it might be clearer to me what you tangibly experience.

I found a old post where I mentioned this in that other thread. I'm not sure if it helps.

It's how INFJs say, "OK, I agree with your view and why you would react like that" and then later say in not so many words, "you are wrong about that" or "I had a good reason to do that". The first part is a validation and reaching a sort of consensus. That lets me know I can stop harping on about that to you, because you 'get me'; you see how I feel about it and respect that, so we're on the same page about it, which is great. So I let that stuff go and move on. But later when the discussion circles back to that subject, you instead start justifying the same behaviour. It can feel like I've been duped or invalidated. The wife beating metaphor is particularly pertinent, in this case, just in a longer time frame.

I'm not sure if that helps.

i think people might also place a different value in consensus. fid, for example, seems to facilitate a shared kind of work more than is generally comfortable for me to do. i don't know if Fe really even draws conclusions in the way that the Ji functions do. it feels more about interpretation than about decision. as a form of acting, it's like wabi sabi, not scaffolds for a building.

i know i am quite circular in my thinking, enough so that i have apologetics for why circular thinking is itself necessary (evidence of my being a stubborn sx type instead of being a more considerate so type). the end result is that it takes a while to get the change in reorganization down. asking for a bit more awareness of what has happened and recapping the story of what happens is one way you can assist me, personally, in staying on the same page with you. especially if you focus on how i have affected your experience, rather than focusing on what i am doing. bc i am more likely to be stubborn about these things, because in some sense, they're a part of me, they're where i begin. my intj ex remarked how funny it was that i could never really remember or even explain the plots of movies immediately afterward. instead, it was just impressions, ideas, meanings, moods.

That's fine. I just felt like things were circling too much, that's all.

 

[21%]

The thread's suddenly become much more crowded...At the risk of sounding paranoid, why did you (relatively at this specific moment) newcomers opted to participate all of a sudden at this exact (pivotal?) moment? This doesn't mean you shouldn't have...just curious why now? And were you silently observing the discussion all along or were you alerted to something somehow?

If it felt to you like we were ganging up on [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] and you felt for whatever reason a need to rush to her rescue and support, please really do contemplate whether you may inadvertantly be enabling her and preventing her from confronting her hurt by acting as proxies...

I'll respond to this.

The interactions in the thread reminds me of my own interactions with my INFP, where we go around and around in circles and nothing futile can come out of it. One thing I've realized in myself is that INFJs tend to have 'external evidence' from Fe on their side, which will come down on the INFPs like a sledgehammer of justice. In my relationship, arguments early on (as well as now from time to time) tend end with INFP recoiling in tremendous hurt and me sounding like a vehement self-righteous prick. Then we both feel bad, with no way of resolving it.

You see, somehow I'm always 'right' -- I do have a way to argue. Even before I start arguing I already have sorted out my arguments in a perfectly logical order. I've prepared well my case and this has been distilled through a long, winding process of self-doubt and evidence and counter-evidence on both sides, until I am absolutely certain I have the right to feel wronged, so when I open my mouth I do so with conviction. Oh, I always have good intentions. I want to reconcile. I've mapped out several ways in that the reconciliation can happen and I offer them sincerely. I'm willing to forgive and I'm willing to ask for forgiveness if I have done anything wrong on my part.

But, to my bewilderment, it doesn't work. And usually it leads to even more hurt, and more arguments, and we were stuck for a very long time in an endless loop of arguments and hurt feelings. Yes, we are sorry we hurt each other, but we cannot do anything that will heal the hurt while still being authentic to ourselves and our values at the same time.

Slowly, I came to realize that something must be wrong with this approach.

Like I said in my earlier post, it is impossible to bring the other over to your side completely. You just have to trust them and everyone has to just try not to feel hurt. I still don't understand Fi completely, but perhaps it's not something you can understand intellectually. To me Fi is still extremely judgmental, subjective, and perhaps even unfair in its disregard for 'universals'. I don't doubt Fe feels the same way to Fi users. I just had to adjust my expectation, that we see different things and we react to things differently. It's completely foreign, so no matter how hard you try to bash it with 'logic' and 'education' it will not work.

I know Fe users like to educate other people -- with the best intentions. But if you want to know how that feels like, listen to a very religious person trying to educate you about their religion. To Fi users, we sound like that.

So I guess that's why I chimed in. I'm not saying all the INFJs are being unfair. Without my relationship with my INFP, I would have reacted exactly the same way and wonder why they feel hurt. Now I know there is something else, like another set of values, that remains hidden in Fi, that I can only see glimpses of, so I tend to filter that into my consideration as well. I will say again that I don't know exactly why this thread exploded the way it did, but I'm just saying that INFJ reactions (including my own) can seem very absolute and terrifying.

To be honest, the best way to resolve conflicts between INFP and me seems to be "Screw this. Let's cuddle." We apologize for hurting each other, and in the future try not to tread where we're not supposed to even when we don't understand why the 'Do not enter' sign is there. No blame. No fingers pointed.

 

[Ginkgo]

The thread's suddenly become much more crowded...At the risk of sounding paranoid, why did you (relatively at this specific moment) newcomers opted to participate all of a sudden at this exact (pivotal?) moment? This doesn't mean you shouldn't have...just curious why now? And were you silently observing the discussion all along or were you alerted to something somehow?

If it felt to you like we were ganging up on [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] and you felt for whatever reason a need to rush to her rescue and support, please really do contemplate whether you may inadvertantly be enabling her and preventing her from confronting her hurt by acting as proxies...

I have older posts in this thread that don't even remotely relate to the current social climate on this forum.

The discrepancies, differences, and interplay between Fi/Ne and Ni/Fe have always seemed to be of special interest to me because of how paradoxically familiar yet alien Ni/Fe can seem to me. NFJs tend to wind up in the same places I do, attempting to achieve similar goals, but different things motivate you guys, so you respond in almost the exact opposite ways under the same stimuli. To me, our differences seem like a ripe area in which personal growth can be achieved. I would even go as far to say that, under a stringently Jungian lens, it's the only area for personal growth to be achieved.

PeaceBaby has served as a catalyst, intentionally or unintentionally, for people to highlight Fi/Ne - Ni/Fe differences in particular. However, even though she's a fellow INFP, she and I come from very different paths in life; despite my "INFJ baggage", I don't seem to be carrying near the same level of emotional investment into this conversation.

I would like to see mutual respect established between the members involved here, even if it means that certain members choose to take a breather and ignore the contents of this discussion completely.