[INFJ] When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact

[yeghor]

@Eilonwy, I wanted to tell you how much I respect what you wrote here. (I mean your entire post, though it was too long to quote in my reply.) Not only do I think you were correct in your assessments, but also your post reminds me of why I like INFJs so much. They can be amazingly perceptive creatures which you have illustrated here.

Another reason I so much respect what you wrote is that you very frankly shared your thought processes both when you first read @Mane's posts and then when you reread them. I think you are demonstrating an INFJ at his/her best. And, you were very forthcoming about INFJs' blind spots.

I did also share my thought processes frankly here but they keep getting ignored for favourable views...

[MENTION=8904]Esoteric Wench[/MENTION], you somehow felt a need to step in in Eilowyn's defense in her stead...I think conciously or subconciously you are trying to reward/reinforce what you see/perceive as good/favourable INFJ behaviour...It feels manipulative to me, like trying to form some kind of alliance rather than discussing the issue at hand...You are also preventing her (?) from stepping up to explain her point of view herself...I would rather have her do that cause the burden of proof rests with her...

It has been my experience that INFJs go awry when they let their Ni run free without having the check and balance of Fe and/or Ti stepping in. Said another way, Ni by it's very nature is a framework for thinking about the world. And it is riddled with personal biases. (Now I don't mean to use the term "bias" here as a pejorative. I just mean that Ni is at it's very heart a way of looking at things... a perspective if you will.) Now when Ni runs amuck, it does not allow outside input so that the INFJ can do a reality check to see if the Ni perspective about which they so strongly feel is grounded in reality. INFJs are at their best when they periodically use their Fe and Ti to make sure that their Ni assumptions/perspectives are still correct (and if they aren't they should then change their Ni assumptions to fit the new reality). INFJs who do not do this Fe/Ti reality check periodically can become opinionated, snobbish, and overly rigid in their thinking. They also can doorslam people as a method of dismissing outside input.

Yes, what you call biases are symbolic patterns that Ni-Ti have deduced out of personal experiences of the INFJ over the course of his/her life...Unchecked, it runs the risk of making the INFJ paranoid...However, INFJs do not doorslam people to dismiss outside input, they doorslam people cause the said people are unbearable to them...Being deprived of further input from the said people is not the cause of the doorslam but the resultant effect...Tolerating unpleasant stimuli may in the end make any person more tolerant/resistant to that stimuli (personal growth)...It's like being tempered with fire but only when in moderate doses...If the fire is too strong/hot, you get burned, destroying the base material...Thru this analogy, when an INFJ doorslams someone, it means the fire became too hot for them to handle anymore, i.e. it began burning/destroying them rather than tempering them...The suggestion that they should bear with the fire longer or that the fire is not as hot as the INFJs think/feel to be, I think, should not come from the bearer of the fire (conflict of interest) but some outside source who can objectively gauge the temperature for what it really is...

Anyway, it seems to me that oftentimes (but not always), when an INFJ doorslams, he/she is cutting off external threats to their Ni framework of understanding. In such cases, they are using their Ni to shut themselves from from taking on and absorbing new perspectives. INFJs need to focus on using their judgment not to dismiss ideas/people, but rather to critically refine their Ni understanding of the world.

So INFJs need to take extra care to listen to someone's idea entirely before passing judgment on it. They need to ask questions as necessary. They need to do whatever it takes to make sure that they understand the other person's ideas. And finally, they should try not to begin judging anything about a new/different idea until they have understood it entirely.

When INFJs doorslam for the above said reasons, it can be very hurtful to non-INFJs. Additionally, I think it is especially hurtful to ENTPs and ENFPs who have such a very different outlook (Ne) on the world that doorslamming someone seems almost inconceivable.

It seems to me that INFJs are expected to do all the hard work...What should non-INFJs do to ease this process?

Once again, let me say, way to go Eilonwy!

I think you are hindering the discussion by playing favorites...

 

[Eilonwy]

[MENTION=20531]yeghor[/MENTION], first, I'm sorry that you interpreted a picture of The Dude from the movie "The Big Lebowski" that I posted to Mane's attention, as ganging up on you. I posted something light and funny (Duuuuude!) for several reasons, but the main one was to try to soften the blow of Mane's post because, from my own INFJ pov, the sarcasm can come across as brutal, as it can from a lot of NTs.

However, with a little effort, I can also see the humor in his post. And with a little more effort, I can see that, despite the sarcasm, he has some points worth taking into consideration.

Let me give you a little more background before I get to what I see in Mane's latest post. Part of what started me off on this particular exploration was that I was told by a few people here that the way I responded to a particular post, posted to me, was with a big wall of "NO". It was my natural way of responding and I didn't even consider that it was coming across as anything other than an explanation. I felt hurt and frustrated, but realized that there was obviously a communication problem that I had a part in, so I tried to figure it out, rather than just blame the other person for taking my response in a way I hadn't intended. (Believe me, I wanted to just lay some blame and walk away from it, but I didn't.)

I'm not going to go into all the details, but part of what I figured out is that, if I have a hard time tailoring my responses to suit other people who read them through a different filter than I do, then that can certainly work both ways. And if I ask for those people to try and be understanding and look past the "no" that they're hearing to see what I'm actually saying, then I should have the same consideration for them in return. I need to look past whatever it is that I'm hearing, and try to see what is actually being said. And I find that very hard to do at times--to look past what I'm hearing, or what a post makes me feel. If it's hard for me, even knowing that this issue exists, then I have to assume that it's hard from the other person's pov, also, and I have to give them a lot of credit when they treat me with patience instead of reacting to me with frustration. And, since none of us are perfect, this process is going to break down at times.

So, back to what I see in Mane's post (which may not be what he intended, so he's free to correct me). To start, you, yeghor, have some responsibility in the exchange. In your very first post at this forum, you call Mane out and proceed to tell him that, from you pov, he's misinterpreted his own situation--he doesn't know his or his wife's type, and he's misinterpreted his experiences with INFJs in general. You may not have intended to, but you also insult him in several ways--at least if your post had been directed at me, I would have been insulted.

You even say this:

Too many details are not necessary; just sum it up without contaminating it with personal interpretation.

which is ironic because your post to him, though you think it's logical and rational, is contaminated with just as much personal interpretation as you see in his posts in this thread. It can't be helped because that's what we ALL do. That's what having a point of view is all about--personal interpretation.

So, you've put out your own version of my big wall of "no". Whether you think so or not, whether you intended it or not, that wall is there. And I'll reiterate, every single person on the planet is putting out their own version of the wall of "no", so I'm not trying to single you out. I'm not exempt from it myself.

Finally, here's what I hear from Mane:
1) He's refuting your claim that he isn't an ENTP by giving you a big dose of ENTP sarcasm. "Dude" and "Far out" are not his normal posting style unless he's being sarcastic.

2) He's talking about Se creds and Fi internal emotional awareness to indicate that he's referring to your story about doorslamming your ESFP co-worker from your third post.

3) He proceeds to make some points about how your story looks from his pov.

4) He asks if you can see past his sarcasm and his own wall of "no" and consider the points he's made, even though those points might hurt your feelings.

5) He assumes you can't or won't and and writes you off in frustration.

I could very well choose to be insulted by his post, too. He mentions the INFJs here, and I fall into that group. I've had a few encounters with him since this thread where I pissed him off because I still didn't get what he was saying. I'll probably piss him off and cause him frustration at times in the future, too, because I'm not perfect. But, so far, he's been able to see that I'm trying and he's stayed open to hearing what I have to say. All he's been asking is for the same in return, so I've been trying to do that. It might be hard to look past the sarcasm and NT communication style at times, but it's probably just as hard for him to look past my wall of "no" and NF communication style, too. You don't have to like the points he made (I wouldn't if they were about me), and you don't have to agree with the points he made, all you're being asked to do is to see those points and consider them. Truly consider them without dismissing them out of hand or running away.

I want to respond to your earlier post to me, but it's the Christmas holiday and I'm going to be very busy for the next few days, so I'll get to it when I can. I know you're taking a beating in this thread and that it can't be pleasant for you, but if you can somehow fight past it, I think you'll gain a lot of respect from everyone here.

 

[yeghor]

[MENTION=8244]Eilonwy[/MENTION]

@yeghor, first, I'm sorry that you interpreted a picture of The Dude from the movie "The Big Lebowski" that I posted to Mane's attention, as ganging up on you. I posted something light and funny (Duuuuude!) for several reasons, but the main one was to try to soften the blow of Mane's post because, from my own INFJ pov, the sarcasm can come across as brutal, as it can from a lot of NTs.

You are sorry for "my" misinterpretation but not for "your" posting the "Dude"...Captions would be nice to convey what you actually meant with the Dude photo...in terms of clarity that you preach (subtle Fi attack here)...

However, with a little effort, I can also see the humor in his post. And with a little more effort, I can see that, despite the sarcasm, he has some points worth taking into consideration.

I think you are trying too hard to see that you are seeing that what's not there...empathic to a fault...

I'm not going to go into all the details, but part of what I figured out is that, if I have a hard time tailoring my responses to suit other people who read them through a different filter than I do, then that can certainly work both ways. And if I ask for those people to try and be understanding and look past the "no" that they're hearing to see what I'm actually saying, then I should have the same consideration for them in return. I need to look past whatever it is that I'm hearing, and try to see what is actually being said. And I find that very hard to do at times--to look past what I'm hearing, or what a post makes me feel. If it's hard for me, even knowing that this issue exists, then I have to assume that it's hard from the other person's pov, also, and I have to give them a lot of credit when they treat me with patience instead of reacting to me with frustration. And, since none of us are perfect, this process is going to break down at times.

^This makes me even more suspicious that you are an actually an INFP...

So, back to what I see in Mane's post (which may not be what he intended, so he's free to correct me). To start, you, yeghor, have some responsibility in the exchange. In your very first post at this forum, you call Mane out and proceed to tell him that, from you pov, he's misinterpreted his own situation--he doesn't know his or his wife's type, and he's misinterpreted his experiences with INFJs in general. You may not have intended to, but you also insult him in several ways--at least if your post had been directed at me, I would have been insulted.

What I was actually trying to convey was that he had not presented his case well enough to demonstrate that his assumptions and interpretations were sound...He wants us to swallow a bitter pill but does not want to explain or prove how he concluded that the pill is actually good for us...and constantly deflects requests for him to do so...and it is being misinterpreted as INFJs' dismissing input/stubbornness/not hearing people out etc. ...(though in his last message he says that he does not care if we swallow the pill or not so I am not sure what he wants anymore...)

You even say this:
Too many details are not necessary; just sum it up without contaminating it with personal interpretation.
which is ironic because your post to him, though you think it's logical and rational, is contaminated with just as much personal interpretation as you see in his posts in this thread. It can't be helped because that's what we ALL do. That's what having a point of view is all about--personal interpretation.

What I was trying to say was that he had not given enough Se material but instead too much Fi material while presenting his case, which I tend to dismiss cause it's subjective data and my Ti cannot see but just presume the facts underneath it...You are by the way responding to his Fi material, guess why...

So, you've put out your own version of my big wall of "no". Whether you think so or not, whether you intended it or not, that wall is there. And I'll reiterate, every single person on the planet is putting out their own version of the wall of "no", so I'm not trying to single you out. I'm not exempt from it myself.

All he had to do was to refute, thru logic, the points I made...like an ENTP would (thru insults/sarcasm nonetheless perhaps).

Finally, here's what I hear from Mane:
1) He's refuting your claim that he isn't an ENTP by giving you a big dose of ENTP sarcasm. "Dude" and "Far out" are not his normal posting style unless he's being sarcastic.

2) He's talking about Se creds and Fi internal emotional awareness to indicate that he's referring to your story about doorslamming your ESFP co-worker from your third post.

3) He proceeds to make some points about how your story looks from his pov.

4) He asks if you can see past his sarcasm and his own wall of "no" and consider the points he's made, even though those points might hurt your feelings.

5) He assumes you can't or won't and and writes you off in frustration.

Actually I did consider his points...I found the case he put forward as incorrect...What he put forward in his post was actually a self-fulfilling prophecy...He infact only responded to a fraction of what I had written...Who's not hearing out who here I wonder?

All he's been asking is for the same in return, so I've been trying to do that. It might be hard to look past the sarcasm and NT communication style at times, but it's probably just as hard for him to look past my wall of "no" and NF communication style, too. You don't have to like the points he made (I wouldn't if they were about me), and you don't have to agree with the points he made, all you're being asked to do is to see those points and consider them. Truly consider them without dismissing them out of hand or running away.

I did already...

I want to respond to your earlier post to me, but it's the Christmas holiday and I'm going to be very busy for the next few days, so I'll get to it when I can. I know you're taking a beating in this thread and that it can't be pleasant for you, but if you can somehow fight past it, I think you'll gain a lot of respect from everyone here.

You are misinterpreting/misrepresenting that I am taking a beating here...You are also misinterpreting/misrepresenting that I am not respected or not yet deserving respect...It is clear to me that I am yet to earn your respect (or that you disrespect me already)...What I understand is that you are making Fi-dom judgments on me...happened to me before...

Merry Christmas to all by the way...

 

[Society]

3) He proceeds to make some points about how your story looks from his pov.

actually no - not my point of view. his co workers, that's exactly it. for that matter, i don't think i ever associated strange with inherently negative myself and i am pretty sure i haven't used the sentiment of weirdo non sarcastically in my life, except perhaps for playing into it for fun when being called one. on that matter my PoV could a lot more easily have identified with @yeghor in defense of all weirdo-bashing, if my empathy was limited to nothing more but who i identify more.

but somehow, using my magic superpowers (gained by eating stir fried Fi pixies btw every morning - if anyone was wondering - the secret is garlic-salt & cajun and you know, being born to a social species adapted at cooperation & empathy & mammoth killing), i was able to use what little information i had to formulate a rudimentary mental model of his coworkers point of view, and see yeghor from that point of view.
i am sure that actually being there and known the guy in person, yeghor should have a lot more information that [even without fried pixies] by any standards of resourcefulness he should have a much easier time doing so - a much easier time doing what i just did. ...and yet, he can't. even time isn't a factor here - with his coworker its a matter of a few weeks but with his childhood friend we are talking about nearly a decade to do it. so we're talking about all the time and resources to do it, and still, nothing. nada. complete and utter mental silence. beep beep...

.
its dead jim.

All he had to do was to refute, thru logic, the points I made...like an ENTP would (thru insults/sarcasm nonetheless perhaps).

...read again.

@yeghor, first, I'm sorry that you interpreted a picture of The Dude from the movie "The Big Lebowski" that I posted to Mane's attention, as ganging up on you. I posted something light and funny (Duuuuude!) for several reasons, but the main one was to try to soften the blow of Mane's post because, from my own INFJ pov, the sarcasm can come across as brutal, as it can from a lot of NTs.

i was sort of hoping there was a jew joke in there somewhere.

which reminds me: marry christmas goy's.

 

[1487610420]

[MENTION=8244]Eilonwy[/MENTION]



You are sorry for "my" misinterpretation but not for "your" posting the "Dude"...Captions would be nice to convey what you actually meant with the Dude photo...in terms of clarity that you preach (subtle Fi attack here)...



I think you are trying too hard to see that you are seeing that what's not there...empathic to a fault...



^This makes me even more suspicious that you are an actually an INFP...



What I was actually trying to convey was that he had not presented his case well enough to demonstrate that his assumptions and interpretations were sound...He wants us to swallow a bitter pill but does not want to explain or prove how he concluded that the pill is actually good for us...and constantly deflects requests for him to do so...and it is being misinterpreted as INFJs' dismissing input/stubbornness/not hearing people out etc. ...(though in his last message he says that he does not care if we swallow the pill or not so I am not sure what he wants anymore...)



What I was trying to say was that he had not given enough Se material but instead too much Fi material while presenting his case, which I tend to dismiss cause it's subjective data and my Ti cannot see but just presume the facts underneath it...You are by the way responding to his Fi material, guess why...



All he had to do was to refute, thru logic, the points I made...like an ENTP would (thru insults/sarcasm nonetheless perhaps).



Actually I did consider his points...I found the case he put forward as incorrect...What he put forward in his post was actually a self-fulfilling prophecy...He infact only responded to a fraction of what I had written...Who's not hearing out who here I wonder?



I did already...



You are misinterpreting/misrepresenting that I am taking a beating here...You are also misinterpreting/misrepresenting that I am not respected or not yet deserving respect...It is clear to me that I am yet to earn your respect (or that you disrespect me already)...What I understand is that you are making Fi-dom judgments on me...happened to me before...

Merry Christmas to all by the way...

Finally someone who can make sense of all these biased an mistyped people.

Such a wonderful xmas gift for the forum!

 

[PeaceBaby]

[MENTION=8244]Eilonwy[/MENTION]: loved your posts. And I feel like (at the very least) you're getting an education on what it's like for an INFP to try to refute an INFJ. I'll keep watching to see where it goes.

P.S. Je is ALWAYS RIGHT.

[MENTION=20531]yeghor[/MENTION]: Hi there new person. Welcome to the forum. You've picked a difficult entry point in this thread to be sure. There is too much history here for you to fully appreciate the context of what you're getting yourself into. All I can do is tell you are pretty far off-base on the facts for much of what you believe to be true here. The irony of course is that you illustrate the theme of the thread quite well yourself, and you don't see that either.

I do hope you stick around though. Many of us who have spent time on the forum have learned a lot about the interior of others and about the assumptions we all make about other people. It's too close to Christmas Day for me to share more than that, since we are busy getting ready here for Christmas, aside from wishing you a Happy Holiday season. Be well! Keep an open mind, eh?

 

[yeghor]

its dead jim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0yXqU-w9U0

I hated when McCoy said that...

May God rest his soul...

 

[yeghor]

[MENTION=8244]Eilonwy[/MENTION]: loved your posts. And I feel like (at the very least) you're getting an education on what it's like for an INFP to try to refute an INFJ. I'll keep watching to see where it goes.

Rather than tending to her wounds, you should have let her wounds heal on their own...I see this tendency to form fellowships/alliances (taking sides) rather than discussing the issues...

All I can do is tell you are pretty far off-base on the facts for much of what you believe to be true here. The irony of course is that you illustrate the theme of the thread quite well yourself, and you don't see that either.

I am looking forward to hearing from you in that regard after the holiday season...ENTPs natural mode of communication is not necessarily sarcasm by the way...I know that for a fact...When people present new ideas or point out my mistakes for my sake rather than theirs, I very much welcome the gesture...even when coming from ENTPs...

Cheers...

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Yes, what you call biases are symbolic patterns that Ni-Ti have deduced out of personal experiences of the INFJ over the course of his/her life...Unchecked, it runs the risk of making the INFJ paranoid...However, INFJs do not doorslam people to dismiss outside input, they doorslam people cause the said people are unbearable to them...Being deprived of further input from the said people is not the cause of the doorslam but the resultant effect...Tolerating unpleasant stimuli may in the end make any person more tolerant/resistant to that stimuli (personal growth)...It's like being tempered with fire but only when in moderate doses...If the fire is too strong/hot, you get burned, destroying the base material...Thru this analogy, when an INFJ doorslams someone, it means the fire became too hot for them to handle anymore, i.e. it began burning/destroying them rather than tempering them...The suggestion that they should bear with the fire longer or that the fire is not as hot as the INFJs think/feel to be, I think, should not come from the bearer of the fire (conflict of interest) but some outside source who can objectively gauge the temperature for what it really is...

This I absolutely agree with. It ceases to amaze me that no matter how many times this is explained, something else is ‘explained’ in return about the INFJ experience (by someone who isn’t INFJ). And it's sometimes got such a heinous and manipulative feel to it that I’d promised myself to stop reading this thread.

It would be one thing if people showed up and earnestly wanted to understand what they were doing to drive INFJs away. That would be a productive dialogue. But the tendency (and it’s no coincidence) is to show up and explain what ‘goes wrong’ in the INFJs who can't bear interacting with them anymore. And they seem oblivious to how controlling it comes across.

[MENTION=8244]

I'm not going to go into all the details, but part of what I figured out is that, if I have a hard time tailoring my responses to suit other people who read them through a different filter than I do, then that can certainly work both ways. And if I ask for those people to try and be understanding and look past the "no" that they're hearing to see what I'm actually saying, then I should have the same consideration for them in return. I need to look past whatever it is that I'm hearing, and try to see what is actually being said. And I find that very hard to do at times--to look past what I'm hearing, or what a post makes me feel. If it's hard for me, even knowing that this issue exists, then I have to assume that it's hard from the other person's pov, also, and I have to give them a lot of credit when they treat me with patience instead of reacting to me with frustration. And, since none of us are perfect, this process is going to break down at times.

^This makes me even more suspicious that you are an actually an INFP...

This^ however, is just odd to me. There’s little doubt in my mind- inasmuch as mbti is a ‘definite’ thing, Eilonwy is ‘definitely’ an INFJ. I say this from extended experience of interacting with her. But the part I find odd is: even if she was INFP, why would that matter? Would that somehow change the meaning of what she’s saying? [It sounds like you’re insinuating that would be grounds for not giving her posts as much weight. I hope it’s obvious how that sounds offensive.]


***

That being said, if typo c ever puts out a holiday album, I think some variation of Carol Of The Bells (with “door” and “slam” in place of “ding” and “dong”) should make the cut.


/won't actually be able to respond until after holidays

 

[yeghor]

This^ however, is just odd to me. There’s little doubt in my mind- inasmuch as mbti is a ‘definite’ thing, Eilonwy is ‘definitely’ an INFJ. I say this from extended experience of interacting with her. But the part I find odd is: even if she was INFP, why would that matter? Would that somehow change the meaning of what she’s saying? [It sounds like you’re insinuating that would be grounds for not giving her posts as much weight. I hope it’s obvious how that sounds offensive.

I can see how that may have sounded condescending...But I actually engaged her and replied to her posts i.e. I did take her thoughts into consideration but did not necessarily agree with them...that is not rejection but disagreement...

It matters if she's an INFP not in the sense that her thoughts/ideas are unimportant but in the sense that that would explain why she is inclined to focus/engage on the emotional content of my messages rather than the material/logical content...as well as why I am inclined to dismiss the emotional content of her messages but focus on the logical content...I can see that that may be interpreted as invalidating her (or Mane's and others') perception of the issue...

I need to look past whatever it is that I'm hearing, and try to see what is actually being said. And I find that very hard to do at times--to look past what I'm hearing, or what a post makes me feel. If it's hard for me, even knowing that this issue exists, then I have to assume that it's hard from the other person's pov, also, and I have to give them a lot of credit when they treat me with patience instead of reacting to me with frustration.

^I think she reacts to the emotional content of the messages (both mine and Mane's) first and may dismiss the message altogether based on the emotional impression that it gives her...That's what she was saying in her paragraph I quoted before, as far as I understand...That is to say she had in the past been using Fi to dismiss the message before going into its logical/material content...

Her first message to me left the kind of impression on me that she was disapproving/dismissing me rather than the ideas/thoughts in my posts...She was rejecting my posts on an emotional level (i.e. based on the emotions my posts aroused in her) rather than a logical level...Her later posts reinforced my impression that that was the case indeed...

So she and I are focusing on different layers of the issue and are somehow speaking different languages (she's giving me Fi reasoing and I am giving her Ti reasoning)...The problem in that is that she's speaking as an INFJ here on an INFJ-related issue (i.e. her ideas/thoughts are being attributed to INFJs) but her reasoning language/method feels foreign to me...there's some kind of discrepancy...and her actually being an INFP would clarify a lot of things in that sense...This may sound as ad-hominem but I am simply trying to inquire about her credibility in terms of her personal experiences as an INFJ rather than invalidating her altogether...In such a case, her personal experiences (as an INFJ) would have to bear "relatively" less weight specifically in this discussion...

It would be as if an architect, believing himself/herself actually to be an engineer, giving lecture/advice to engineers in the vicinity on why they (the engineers) are technically wrong without giving due technical but personal justification...or vice versa...can you see how that may come off patronizing/condescending to engineers (notwithstanding the experience and expertise of the architect or that the architect's advice may indeed be valid)?

 

[yeghor]

 

[Society]

there's a good dose of irony in the typological conversation about dismissing people vs. dismissing arguments there that i am sure i will find funny to watch as it comes back in the future... but in the mean time:

^I think she reacts to the emotional content of the messages (both mine and Mane's) first and may dismiss the message altogether based on the emotional impression that it gives her...That's what she was saying in her paragraph I quoted before, as far as I understand...That is to say she had in the past been using Fi to dismiss the message before going into its logical/material content...

oh you mean like this? oh wait, that's you. and yet the most obvious possibility that in your attachment to the emotional role your 'arguments' provide you with (justification & righteousness) your mind is making an emotional choice to not look for the (ego bursting and insulting) counter points and reasoning standing right in front of you is... oh right, going right over your head.

just like you were incapable of gearing your mind to see beyond that which insulted you in your co workers comments about you, to the point where - despite having clearly had at the very least enough information (having accidently provided it here) to construct a mental model and see how from his point of view he you were proving him right in your reaction.

just like in your past attempts to learn about NPD, you where incapable of gauging the most fundamental concepts of narcissistic injury & supply, as understanding the manner in which narcissistic injury leads to the exact behavior described above - avoiding thought threads that require one to look at one self in ways which would be insulting to your ego.

are you seen the pattern here? probably not. so lets me make it clear: whenever the emotional result of a thought thread is insulting to your ego and beliefs about yourself, you are subconsciously choosing to not go there.

while in 1on1 situations or in preemptively choosing 3rd parties which would be on your side or would be easy to manipulate by hearing your "objective" telling of the tale that might be easier to justify, what is happening right now you are joining a group situation where you have the least amount of information and experience to go by, your subconscious choice to not see what others do is a lot more visible (as [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] pointed out - exemplifying many of the themes in the thread). unable to see that in itself, you avoid to thought that others are seen points where you are not and are thus seen nothing but your own emotional reaction and feeling of being ganged up upon.

(which takes me back nostalgically to the days i was ganging up on all the INFJs here, good ol' times where numbers worked differently).

 

[LovelyAngel]

That being said, if typo c ever puts out a holiday album, I think some variation of Carol Of The Bells (with “door” and “slam” in place of “ding” and “dong”) should make the cut.

This made me smile! Although a track for every MBTI type would be scary indeed... an album where everyone had one favorite track and skipped the others.

As far as the rest of the thread goes, I'll continue to lurk as I am neither sufficiently armed nor armored to participate.

 

[yeghor]

Seriously Mane, I really think you have a strong Fi...My understanding is that Fi-Fe spectrum is about how self-centered/selfless, narcissist-codependent one is...Both extremities of the spectrum is unhealthy...

I sense a lot of rage, projection, gaslighting, denial etc. behaviour in your posts...you seriously refuse to see reason and are stuck in your views...I really think you should do a reality check IRL to identify that I am, hopefully, mistaken...

All the best...

 

[Society]

i know rite? why can't those damn self-centered Fi users stop projecting their emotions by taking what is said and demonstrating actual points and instead just listen to reason by accepting empty declarations without back up? it's crazy dude.

p.s.
for future reference: if you ever choose to show that you have a bit more to offer, the rope above will still be hanging here. let it not be said that i ever doorslammed or took anyone's chance away. good luck (everyone in your life is going to need it, poor bastards).

 

[Eilonwy]

I've been there...When under extreme stress like depression, panic disorders etc. one needs to rely on their trusted close friends if any or go see a psychiatrist or anyone intimate enough who can act as a sounding board for them...When I was like that in the past (in the shadow), my senses were blinded...I was like in a sand storm and could not see and decide which way to go, which action to take, I was stuck in Ni-Ti loop I guess and needed someone to strike and break the loop and pull me out of the sandstorm out to the clear...Luckily I had such friends who were there for me and enabled me to make healthy decisions at that time (tough I have taxed them heavily during those times and am grateful to them)...

So, at those times you cannot question your own judgment cause you are on the verge of going crazy..You need someone else, who is un-contaminated/healthy so as to re-calibrate yourself...

As far as I can see, INFJs here have tried their best to be a sounding board for him IMO...

I would say that seeking input from another source IS questioning your own judgement, otherwise, why seek input?

Once again, I can't speak for Mane, but my impression is that he wasn't looking for a sounding board. He wanted his theory about INFJs doorslamming under stress to be to be proven wrong. I think he was looking for examples or demonstrations.

You cannot see the storm for what it is before you get out of it...To me it's like suggesting someone to open up their eyes wider so that they can see their way out of the sand storm...Once out, you can assess the damage and decided whether the storm was not as serious/severe as you at first made it to be...

Maybe it would be even more beneficial to see the storm coming and try to avoid it so that there will be even LESS damage. To me, since we're talking about typological blind spots, that would mean learning about and working on one's particular blind spots once one becomes aware that there is such a thing.

How would being proven wrong here affect his step-son's well being out there? And being proven wrong about what? That her ex-wives actions were wrong?

My impression is that having his doorslamming theory proven wrong would mean that there was hope that his ex-wife might eventually come around to letting his step-son be a part of his life, rather than closing him out completely for an undetermined amount of time or possibly forever.

What I understand is that Mane had established an emotional bond with his step-son, whom her ex-wife (supposedly an INFJ) would not allow him to contact after the break-up/separation (which Mane believed to be an INFJ doorslam)...Would we consider all marital break-ups as INFJ doorslams?

As far as I can tell, Mane never said all marital breakups were doorslams. Marital breakups aren't even the focus of his doorslamming theory.

He, for reasons unknown to us, appears to have placed a good deal of importance on his relationship with the step-son, as if it were essential to both his and the step-son's wellbeing...Perhaps he saw it as something that would enable him to do a worthy deed and leave his mark on earth...I don't really know...

Perhaps he grew to LOVE his step-son.
btw, I find what you said here to be insensitive--just letting you know my opinion. And to be fair, I've said many insensitive things here on the forum, and to Mane specifically, so I'm not trying to take you to task.

He sounds angry at his ex-wife for spoiling that, for taking that (hope?) away from him...There's nothing besides acting as counsels and soundingboards that INFJs here can do for him...It's not us INFJs but her wife who he should have reconciled with...

We can also act as examples of our type. As far as I can tell, he has never stated that his goal is to reconcile with the INFJs here. I'm not sure how that would even work, or why you thought it was a goal of his.

I did and there are missing parts in the story...I do not know what to do with it? I cannot integrate it into my thinking system as is...cause I cannot see what went wrong in his case and how that can affect me in my prospective life? I cannot see what lies underneath!

He's stated several times now that he's not trying to fix or advise the INFJs here, yet, I still hear that that is what he is trying to do even after he's said very clearly that he isn't. I'm starting to think that this might be related to what is being discussed in another thread about how INTJs learn. I see similarities in the way I learn in that I understand what's being said, but until something "clicks", I really don't get the concept. So, I know Mane has put forth a theory about doorslamming, but I don't think his concept of what a doorslam entails has fully "clicked" for me, and possibly not for the other INFJs either. Because what I see from you, and what I saw from other INFJs, earlier in this thread, are a lot of questions trying to refine the concept. I could be wrong.

In his case he should tell her ex-wife that he still wants to be a part of (not her but) the step-son's life cause he feels committed to him...He should pursue his legal rights to that end if any...If it is she who has the legal rights to do that, it's her call and there's nothing more he can do about that but to grieve and then accept...In fact his issue (being personal,marital) should not really be a issue to discuss/analyze by people here at all...He will have to go after new/fresh potential relationships to create a new prospect for happiness...

You need to go back and reread the thread. The answers to this are all in earlier posts.

Once again, I find it insensitive for you to say that there's nothing more Mane can do but accept that he'll never see his step-son again. For a type that's called "the counselor", that is supposed to have a lot of empathy, I often find that empathy to be sorely lacking, even in my own posts. No matter what anyone might think of Mane personally, being inconsiderate of his feelings for his step-son is unacceptable, imo.

What's the point then? Doesn't that conflict with:

1) He wasn't saying that I had to agree with the other perspective, or even defer to the other perspective, only that I should listen to it and take it into consideration.

2) He thinks that one INFJ blind spot is that, under stress, we lose sight of other perspectives and don't realize it. At those times, we need to question our own judgement.

?

The point is, imo, that he was putting out a theory and wanted to see what the response would be. Statements #1 and #2 are my attempts to clarify parts of his theory that seemed to be misunderstood.

What motivated you to go back and revisit this thread to go over Mane's posts?

I stated that in the second paragraph of my post.

What makes you think I do not think/re-think doorslamming? What coping mechanism did you put in it's place and how did you do it?

I admit that I'm assuming that you don't rethink it because of what you've been writing in your posts. So far, nothing you've written has indicated to me that you're open to rethinking your stance. However, I could be wrong. I appreciate that you pointed that out to me.

As far as I know, I've never doorslammed anyone. I've thought about completely cutting off communications with some people, but I've never put that into practice. So, I guess my coping mechanism has been to keep questioning and to take responsibility for my own feelings. I'm not sure I can give you a more concise answer than that. It would take more explanation than I have the time or energy for at this time.

What lessons for personal growth did you discover after that (specifically in terms of doorslamming)?

Without going into all of the details, I discovered:
1) I miss a lot of information because I hear things through my own filters, biases, and past issues.
2) That even though it's natural for me to make feeling-based decisions, because action taken from those types of decisions (NiFe) feels more genuine and less manipulative than deliberate action taken after thinking everything through (adding in Ti), I can't always trust that I've accurately identified my feelings, or that I should base some of my bigger decisions on them, especially when I'm under a lot of stress.
3) I tend to read emotional data where there is none.
4) Instead of reading/hearing the actual words, I tend to get impressions of what is said, and those impressions can be off.
5) Instead of stopping and asking what someone means, I can tend to assign a motivation to them based on my gut feeling.
6) I'm not so good at setting and maintaining healthy boundaries.
7) I don't always want to hear or consider criticism because it can bring up very strong, uncomfortable feelings that I don't want to feel or deal with.
8) I sometimes reject other people's solutions because they don't FEEL right to me, instead of considering how they might work for me.
9) When I'm under a lot of stress, I can start to imagine the worst of other people, and, if I'm not careful, I'll believe what I've imagined.
10) Some of my own issues keep me from completely believing in other people's sincerity.
11) I tend to focus on the problems rather than the positives.
12) It can become difficult for me to differentiate my own emotions from those I pick up on from other people, so I might end up blaming other people for what I'm feeling.
Any of these could lead me to doorslamming, or be used to justify doorslamming, if I let them. They're things of which I need to stay aware and keep working to improve. If someone criticizes me, instead of immediately getting defensive, I try to check and see if any of these things might have caused the issue, and go from there. I still fail at this regularly because it's only been a few months since I discovered all of this.

You are sorry for "my" misinterpretation but not for "your" posting the "Dude"...Captions would be nice to convey what you actually meant with the Dude photo...in terms of clarity that you preach (subtle Fi attack here)...

You're right. I was putting the blame back on you for misinterpreting. I apologize for that. However, I'm not sorry for posting the picture, though I am sorry for making you feel ganged-up on.

I really don't think a caption would have helped, since, no matter how carefully I try to clarify, there will always be someone who misunderstands.

^This makes me even more suspicious that you are an actually an INFP...

Anything is possible. Typology might not even be a real thing--just a bunch of imagined patterns that aren't really there. Like when we see faces in things like the mountains on Mars.

Still, I find it fun and interesting to explore.

What I was actually trying to convey was that he had not presented his case well enough to demonstrate that his assumptions and interpretations were sound...He wants us to swallow a bitter pill but does not want to explain or prove how he concluded that the pill is actually good for us...and constantly deflects requests for him to do so...and it is being misinterpreted as INFJs' dismissing input/stubbornness/not hearing people out etc. ...(though in his last message he says that he does not care if we swallow the pill or not so I am not sure what he wants anymore...)

After rereading the thread, I can see that he doesn't care if we swallow the pill (even though a part of my mind still tells me that he does), so that tells me that I missed that the first time around, which leads me to believe that his theory is correct--I completely missed his perspective even when I thought I was seeing it (and I still cling to my own perspective, even though there is clear evidence against it).

What I was trying to say was that he had not given enough Se material but instead too much Fi material while presenting his case, which I tend to dismiss cause it's subjective data and my Ti cannot see but just presume the facts underneath it...You are by the way responding to his Fi material, guess why...

Sorry I didn't say this sooner, but this is as good an opportunity as any to let you know that I know next to nothing about functions. I sometimes throw the terms around as if I do know what I'm talking about, but mostly that's what I call "trying them on"--saying things out loud to see if they fit or not. I've tried to be more careful about stating the extent of my knowledge, or lack thereof, but I do slip up every so often. So, here's where I stand, knowledgewise: I have no background or education in philosophy, psychology, typology, debate, or logical argument. I came to this forum to learn. I've read a few books that are relevant, but none of them are Jung (well, I've gotten halfway through his autobiography, if that counts). Keirsey and Thomson are about the extent of my typological reading so far. I have Nardi's book, but haven't read it yet.

So, I can't give you an educated response, or even an uneducated comment on what you wrote, because I don't know enough to do so.

You are misinterpreting/misrepresenting that I am taking a beating here...You are also misinterpreting/misrepresenting that I am not respected or not yet deserving respect...It is clear to me that I am yet to earn your respect (or that you disrespect me already)...What I understand is that you are making Fi-dom judgments on me...happened to me before...

Again, you're right. My bad. I made an assumption based on my own perception of things.

Hope you had a pleasant holiday.

 

[yeghor]

I would say that seeking input from another source IS questioning your own judgement, otherwise, why seek input?

We seem to be in agreement in this but the way you say it makes it sound like that we actually aren’t or that I am wrong somehow...that I am missing something...What is it? Is it about this?

...if you examine my post again, you'll find one major critical weight on the conclusion - that at certain times in their lives, in their unhealthy states, they are unable to examine other people's perspectives and unaware of their incapacity at the time and thus don't recognize and question it. as a result, while the people they doorslam might be deplorable or unethical people, the INFJ doing so isn't capable of knowing whether it is their case according to their own understanding of ethical judgement at the time....

Once again, I can't speak for Mane, but my impression is that he wasn't looking for a sounding board. He wanted his theory about INFJs doorslamming under stress to be to be proven wrong. I think he was looking for examples or demonstrations.

I don't know but if that's the case, he first needs to substantiate his theory with tangible data (details of his own experience) before asking us to defend our position...He condemns us a guilty and then demands us to prove our innonce to him...???

Maybe it would be even more beneficial to see the storm coming and try to avoid it so that there will be even LESS damage. To me, since we're talking about typological blind spots, that would mean learning about and working on one's particular blind spots once one becomes aware that there is such a thing.

Agreed...I have learnt to recognize toxic people (people who are unable to recognize and respect basic personal boundaries) more quickly and I try to keep them at arms length...Perhaps I am missing some opportunities/chances this way but it’s better to be on the safe side...I think some of those personalities believe that my not objecting to their certain behaviour on the spot as a sign of consent on my side that it’s OK for them to repeat that in future...and they feel betrayed/left in the dark when I put that behaviour forward as a grievance when they keep repeating that in a pattern...

However, what I expect from them is that they should respect basic personal boundaries that come with human decency by default and I think that I should not have to be obliged to keep reminding them about those basic boundaries at every turn...Their expecting me to voice out my basic personal rights over and over again is exhausting...They should know those boundaries by default...It’s like them saying I will keep stealing from you cause you did not object to it...and if you disengage from me after my repetitive cases of stealing from you it’s your fault cause you should have given me a heads-up in advance...See, it’s like an avoidance method to absolve one’s self from guilt and responsibility...They should have learnt to recognize proper personal boundaries by now...If that makes them feel like walking on eggshells, that means that they have never learnt to walk properly at all in the first place...

To that end, I am trying to let go of my conflict avoidance and voice out my boundaries more assertively now by the way...Got that chief? ...

My impression is that having his doorslamming theory proven wrong would mean that there was hope that his ex-wife might eventually come around to letting his step-son be a part of his life, rather than closing him out completely for an undetermined amount of time or possibly forever.

Perhaps...

As far as I can tell, Mane never said all marital breakups were doorslams. Marital breakups aren't even the focus of his doorslamming theory.

Well his theory revolves around his breakup with his ex-spouse...

Perhaps he grew to LOVE his step-son.

Perhaps...

Btw, I find what you said here to be insensitive--just letting you know my opinion. And to be fair, I've said many insensitive things here on the forum, and to Mane specifically, so I'm not trying to take you to task.

I know...but somethings need to be said as they are...We do not know anything about his relationship with his step-son, just what he told us about it...

We can also act as examples of our type. As far as I can tell, he has never stated that his goal is to reconcile with the INFJs here. I'm not sure how that would even work, or why you thought it was a goal of his.

He says in some of his posts that he needs to forgive his ex-spouse...thinks that she is an INFJ...and then comes to an INFJ forum...and then expects the INFJs to prove to him that they (the INFJs) were innocent (did not take delight) in the doorslamming practice (which he thinks what happened to him)...My take is he was angry at the ex-spouse for doing that to him (making him feel weak, vulnerable, sad), he could not deal with these negative feelings and (since he cannot contact/communicate-with/abuse the ex-spouse anymore) he indirectly tried to transfer the negative feelings onto the ex-spouse by badmouthing her to their social circle (which made the ex-spouse even more infurious) to absolve himself of the guilt...When that backfired, he came here to transfer his guilt onto the INFJs here...by basically saying that it’s not my fault but yours (INFJs, hence the ex-spouse)...prove me wrong if you can...

That was, I guess, what I meant by reconciliation...Since he cannot contact the ex-spouse, he is trying in his own style to make peace with himself by substituting INFJs here in his ex-spouse’s place...

He's stated several times now that he's not trying to fix or advise the INFJs here, yet, I still hear that that is what he is trying to do even after he's said very clearly that he isn't....I see similarities in the way I learn in that I understand what's being said, but until something "clicks", I really don't get the concept. So, I know Mane has put forth a theory about doorslamming, but I don't think his concept of what a doorslam entails has fully "clicked" for me, and possibly not for the other INFJs either. Because what I see from you, and what I saw from other INFJs, earlier in this thread, are a lot of questions trying to refine the concept. I could be wrong.

Agreed...He could not put forward a crystal clear justification of his case/theory...There are many pieces of his story that he left in the shadows...He is not willing to reveal his hand but expects us to reveal ours...Not what you would see in an honest/sincere dialogue...

He says in his posts that INFJs are using doorslam as a way of escapism and are by doing so avoiding opportunities for personal growth, are taking delight in the doorslam, are not considering others’ point of view enough before and after the doorslam and therefore acting irrationally (on incomplete justification) and miss on opportunities for rectifying their faults/weaknesses, are accusing INFJs’ of accusing others with doing things they themselves do as well (acting hypocritically) and that he’s expecting to be proven wrong on those points...

He’s feeling guilty, and by trying to make the other look guilty, he’s trying to absolve himself of the guilt...He’s trying to convince himself that he’s not guilt but rather than doing the hard work of introspection and analysis himself, he hands the job to the INFJs here and tells himself that if they cannot prove me guilty/wrong, then well, I have tried (come forward) but (they failed to get me) that’s their fault (INFJs are the scapegoat)...That means I cannot be held guilty/responsible...It’s kind of a backwards and distorted way of rationalizing/establishing his innocence in the events...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_wrongs_make_a_right

Once again, I find it insensitive for you to say that there's nothing more Mane can do but accept that he'll never see his step-son again. For a type that's called "the counselor", that is supposed to have a lot of empathy, I often find that empathy to be sorely lacking, even in my own posts. No matter what anyone might think of Mane personally, being inconsiderate of his feelings for his step-son is unacceptable, imo.

I know...I believe my style feels to you like I am shredding his emotions to pieces and invalidating them...Actually I am trying to pull aside his emotions and see what lies underneath them, what’s the underlying mechanism/reasoning that led to the emotions and to pinpoint the flaws/biases in the mechanism (if any) to see if the reasoning is sound...My empathy on the other hand, is for both sides of the issue...The step-son, ex-spouse and Mane...I prefer to tell the reality rather than catering to his feelings... While his hurt/pain may be valid/authentic, he has to grieve but accept the legal side of the issue and find the strength to move on and hopefully carve his own sphere of happiness elsewhere...Perhaps I could have told him that I hoped that he would be a part of his step-son in the future but he failed to gain my sympathies...not that he was looking for any...In any case, I wish the best not just for him but everyone of them...

I admit that I'm assuming that you don't rethink it because of what you've been writing in your posts. So far, nothing you've written has indicated to me that you're open to rethinking your stance. However, I could be wrong. I appreciate that you pointed that out to me.

As far as I know, I've never doorslammed anyone. I've thought about completely cutting off communications with some people, but I've never put that into practice. So, I guess my coping mechanism has been to keep questioning and to take responsibility for my own feelings. I'm not sure I can give you a more concise answer than that. It would take more explanation than I have the time or energy for at this time.

What happens when someone in your life (that you need to interact with regularly/daily) keeps making you feel bad? What do you do in such a case? How do you cope? What if the behaviour persists?

4) Instead of reading/hearing the actual words, I tend to get impressions of what is said, and those impressions can be off. (Are you assigning intents to the words, like "they are attacking me my ego/self"?)

5) Instead of stopping and asking what someone means, I can tend to assign a motivation to them based on my gut feeling. (Based on your perception of them as GOOD or BAD people?)

7) I don't always want to hear or consider criticism because it can bring up very strong, uncomfortable feelings that I don't want to feel or deal with. (Does it resonate in you like they are condescending/devaluing you?)

8) I sometimes reject other people's solutions because they don't FEEL right to me, instead of considering how they might work for me. (Does the other’s style of giving advice or that the fact that they are giving you (unsolicited?) advice make you feel devalued/worthless so you feel you need to reject the advice but come up with “your own” genuine solutions to the issue?)

Any of these could lead me to doorslamming, or be used to justify doorslamming, if I let them. They're things of which I need to stay aware and keep working to improve. If someone criticizes me, instead of immediately getting defensive, I try to check and see if any of these things might have caused the issue, and go from there. I still fail at this regularly because it's only been a few months since I discovered all of this. (You may use a trusted/objective friend or senior as a soundingboard to optimize your senses, for reality checks)

You're right. I was putting the blame back on you for misinterpreting. I apologize for that. However, I'm not sorry for posting the picture, though I am sorry for making you feel ganged-up on. (I had assumed that you were congratulating Mane on a job well done...)

Anything is possible. Typology might not even be a real thing--just a bunch of imagined patterns that aren't really there. Like when we see faces in things like the mountains on Mars.

Typology is the new age astrology IMO...

Sorry I didn't say this sooner, but this is as good an opportunity as any to let you know that I know next to nothing about functions. I sometimes throw the terms around as if I do know what I'm talking about, but mostly that's what I call "trying them on"--saying things out loud to see if they fit or not. I've tried to be more careful about stating the extent of my knowledge, or lack thereof, but I do slip up every so often. So, here's where I stand, knowledgewise: I have no background or education in philosophy, psychology, typology, debate, or logical argument. I came to this forum to learn. I've read a few books that are relevant, but none of them are Jung (well, I've gotten halfway through his autobiography, if that counts). Keirsey and Thomson are about the extent of my typological reading so far. I have Nardi's book, but haven't read it yet.

http://www.celebritytypes.com/infp.php

http://www.celebritytypes.com/infj.php

By Se material I meant External Sensing material (concrete data, hard facts from the physical world, like A said X to me and I said her Y and this lead to that etc.)...Consider it like raw/unprocessed data...

By Fi material I meant Internal Feeling material (subjective data coming from one’s internal feelings, like A made me feel sad, A is a such a mean person, This is such a beautiful painting/song, yet someone else may find it abhorrent)...Consider it like raw data processed thru feelings...It’s no longer raw but processed/finished...The feelings Mane felt on the events for instance are simply his feelings...They are authentic...They convey to us how he feels on an issue but do not convey to us what (chain of events) happened to make him feel that way...

Ti is internal thinking...Logic process that analyzes factual data...etc...Because of the way INFJs’ functions are stacked (weak Fi with moderate Ti), I am inclined to make objective analysis rather than subjective analysis...Feelings do not explain why something happened...They are effect (result) of an event...Ti (internal thinking) analyzes what mechanism caused someone to feel the way they feel...Etc etc...

Hope you had a pleasant holiday.

Thanks for the response...You too...

 

[Eilonwy]

Don't know when I might get around to replying, so I thought I'd provide some popcorn for any spectators in the interim:





I hope that's enough to hold whoever's reading.


ETA: Caption to clarify meaning: meant to be silly and to keep the mood light.

 

[Eilonwy]

Actually, since I told you the extent of my knowledge/qualifications, or lack thereof, I'd be interested in hearing about yours, [MENTION=20531]yeghor[/MENTION].

 

[yeghor]

I am just a mbti enthusiast...have been reading about it for about 7 years...trying to test and revise my conclusions along the way...

I don't have any psychology qualifications...I also think too much why people act the way they do and whether it was my fault or not...an artifact of people pleasing habits I guess...