[INTJ] Why do people hate INTJs?

[Amargith]

The differences between your two posts look like the difference between two SP doms having a different aux.

LOL, very astute. You're right.

But they do share the following:



INTJs are truly like cats. Cats that live in a pack of dogs. I cannot believe I have to explain this.


What is the point of it all? The point of it all is to NOT have to stand alone. To have help and a safe haven to go to. To find for that matter people who understand and enjoy what you feel like rambling about, expressing and who in turn enrich your life with their quirks - if only for entertainment purposes. Hell, to just laugh off some of that stress you guys carry around.

YES, I know, you're capable of handling yourself, of handling anything that comes your way. That you don't feel the need to follow the hierarchy within the pack when you see no reason for it - in that I even join you - or that you have no time to waste on social dynamics as you have work to do...

But the point is that that ends you up where we started: with people misunderstanding you.

Ever see a cat and a dog miscommunicate? One wags its tail to indicate it wants to play, the other coz it's annoyed and cannot fathom anyone wanting to play as it opens you up to injury. One bows down in an attempt to invite you to join in, the other takes it as an invasion of personal space. And things escalate from there, fighting over resources, personal space and territory.

It takes teaching the cat that the dog aint doing this to be threatening and let lose a little and stop being so paranoid/serious and go with it - as well as teaching the dog to give the cat its space and respect that - to restore pack order. That, or putting the cat on top above everyone else in the hierarchy - tricky, considering that is a place of dominance and leadership and you'll be expected to perform the duties that come with it and deal with the challenges from competitors.


Sure, you don't *need* social interaction, friends, bonds, whatever. You also do not need mac and cheese, chocolate milk, fluffy pillows and cuddles, but ya know what? They enhance your life. Water and bread makes you survive, for sure. Life is still nicer with a *** twix bar in your hand and a person to share it with. Even for you guys.


See, this is what I see you failing to comprehend:

You may not need someone else's help technically to take care of yourself, but it might just make things faster, more efficient, more fun (gasp!), and more rewarding. And IF you do get yourself in a pickle, you're not nearly as vulnerable. Don't kid yourself either. As competent as you often are, you will on occasion suffer set backs and injuries. Like a cat, you guys hide your injuries, forget about self-pity, forget about showing your wounds to the group so they can cover for you and creep away in a bush to wait for it to heal. God forbid you show it to a vet, who could, ya know, fix that damned thing for ya.

And god forbid that instead of having to fight for every inch of territory, you learn to share it, gaining some goodwill with your pack mates, some recognition for your awesome contributions and someone to cover your back - just in case it *might* come in handy.

In truth, you're in a vulnerable position.

Nobody is an island. Including my own kitties btw. But their communication skills, their need to do things their way, their insistence on dealing with threats alone leave them vulnerable and exposed. There is strength in numbers, there are 5 of them, and they *still* manage to have to fight all their own battles with other cats in the neighbourhood and come home scratched up coz they won't stand together. And I end up having to take care of *YET* another infected eye, paw, or whatever else they got this time - and for that matter trick them in letting me treat it

And my INTJ is no **** different. He runs himself down, works 10+ hours a day at work, won't get his personnel to pick up the slack, does not sleep enough, and ends up doing *everything* himself. And when I show concern, he goes 'It's not a big deal, I'm fine!' *hides injured paw behind his back*

It's like having an extra cat.

You are vulnerable. Whether you like to hear it or not, you're *extremely* vulnerable. Because you do not do strength in numbers.And you *everytime* overestimate how much you can and should be able to handle, as your pride demands you should be able to handle anything life throws at you, no matter what. You punish yourself for failing to be Atlas and you rarely ask for help. And when you re forced to do so anyway, you're so pessimistic in trusting that the other person will actually provide it and be competent at it that it doesn't exactly inspire them to go out on a limb, for you. And it is why you will *always* be overshadowed by less devoted, less dedicated, less competent people and under appreciated in ways you do not deserve. Because those other people take the smart way instead of the hard way. They realise that standing together, forging those essential bonds you consider a waste of your time will get you *everywhere*.

It is at times maddening to watch such a smart person be this stupid, I'm sorry.

As for the social thing. Mine is sp-sx and even *he* is starting to notice that in Norway, right now, we have no real friends. He has his work colleagues - who he doesn't trust further than he can throw them, and I have you guys. But our circle of friends which started out as MY circle of friends is back in Belgium. I deliberately didn't build one here as we re only to stay a few years here, but it affects us. He misses them, and so do I. It is *nice* to be able to have a group to call home, to get together with a bunch of people who will be there when life gets you down and who share some of your hobbies and hang out to do silly things. People who are *happy* to see you, who are willing to share your misery as well as your good fortune. But yes, those things need to be invested in and it is something he looks to me for, to do *for him*.

Go it alone, if you truly feel that you have to. You are a cat, after all. And I aint asking you to become dog of the year. But be aware of the risks and high costs that come with your choice to go cat all the way. It aint the safer, smarter or funner choice. Don't kid yourself.

 

[chubber]

They call me, very very sneaky at work.

 

[chubber]

Sure, you don't *need* social interaction, friends, bonds, whatever. You also do not need mac and cheese, chocolate milk, fluffy pillows and cuddles, but ya know what? They enhance your life. Water and bread makes you survive, for sure. Life is still nicer with a *** twix bar in your hand and a person to share it with. Even for you guys.


See, this is what I see you failing to comprehend:

You may not need someone else's help technically to take care of yourself, but it might just make things faster, more efficient, more fun (gasp!), and more rewarding. And IF you do get yourself in a pickle, you're not nearly as vulnerable. Don't kid yourself either. As competent as you often are, you will on occasion suffer set backs and injuries. Like a cat, you guys hide your injuries, forget about self-pity, forget about showing your wounds to the group so they can cover for you and creep away in a bush to wait for it to heal. God forbid you show it to a vet, who could, ya know, fix that damned thing for ya.

And god forbid that instead of having to fight for every inch of territory, you learn to share it, gaining some goodwill with your pack mates, some recognition for your awesome contributions and someone to cover your back - just in case it *might* come in handy.

Yup. I secretly desire that stuff, but I display cranky outer high standards a-hole attitude. I like it, but in private with my SO.

The problem also is, with all the liberal stuff happening, some women shout. I don't want to be his mama and pick up after him... uhm... but I can't help it, but I need it. Equates to cranky, leave me alone outer display. Life is tough on me so I will be tough on everyone else.

I guess as I get older, I want to open up more and be vulnerable. It is difficult to be that way, when you are exposed and become easy target. Especially when in school. I'm not any more and I can see that people grow too and can pick up on things too.

 

[RaptorWizard]

I see that sunshine ENFPs are absolutely enthralled by the mysterious auras of those esoteric INTJs.

Amargith clearly cares a lot about you people with the fullness of her soul and the sacredness of her heart!

 

[chubber]

I see that sunshine ENFPs are absolutely enthralled by the mysterious auras of those esoteric INTJs.

Amargith clearly cares a lot about you people with the fullness of her soul and the sacredness of her heart!

Please hate me

 

[Nicodemus]

Because those other people take the smart way instead of the hard way. They realise that standing together, forging those essential bonds you consider a waste of your time will get you *everywhere*.

It is at times maddening to watch such a smart person be this stupid, I'm sorry.

The problem is that it does not come naturally. To do it would be contrived, almost phoney to such a degree that even means-to-an-end reasoning cannot necessarily justify it.

Fiat feles, et pereat mundus!

 

[Evo]

INTJs are truly like cats. Cats that live in a pack of dogs. I cannot believe I have to explain this.

You are so funny. And right.

P.S. I'm glad you go above and beyond to explain things And welcome back.

And my INTJ is no **** different. He runs himself down, works 10+ hours a day at work, won't get his personnel to pick up the slack, does not sleep enough, and ends up doing *everything* himself. And when I show concern, he goes 'It's not a big deal, I'm fine!' *hides injured paw behind his back*

It's like having an extra cat.

Ahh tert. Fi/ inf. Se at its best

Nobody is an island

It took me a long time to fully understand this by experiencing it. And I'm still at the point where I have to remind myself of all the reasons that this is true.

It's not something that comes as natural as it does for others. You have to put effort into reminding yourself that you're doing it for the bigger scheme of things. That you're making friends, putting in the effort, and that you're hopefully going to have the relationship that you are trying to build, become a resource.

You are vulnerable. Whether you like to hear it or not, you're *extremely* vulnerable. Because you do not do strength in numbers. And you *every time* overestimate how much you can and should be able to handle, as your pride demands you should be able to handle anything life throws at you, no matter what. You punish yourself for failing to be Atlas and you rarely ask for help. And when you re forced to do so anyway, you're so pessimistic in trusting that the other person will actually provide it and be competent at it that it doesn't exactly inspire them to go out on a limb, for you. And it is why you will *always* be overshadowed by less devoted, less dedicated, less competent people and under appreciated in ways you do not deserve. Because those other people take the smart way instead of the hard way. They realize that standing together, forging those essential bonds you consider a waste of your time will get you *everywhere*.

I'm still learning this one

(It's probably got a little to do with E6 and trust stuffs though....)

But I have started to let go a little. Letting go is difficult ha ha. I think that you're right though.

It's almost like one has to figure out if the person is going to be a good friend, get THEM to trust oneself first, and then everything sort of falls into place.

When I do that...people don't mind when I ask them to do stuff, and they do it perfectly.

I don't have to triple check their work, or just do it myself.

It's really nice cause it actually IS the more efficient way to do things, in the end.

It is *nice* to be able to have a group to call home, to get together with a bunch of people who will be there when life gets you down and who share some of your hobbies and hang out to do silly things. People who are *happy* to see you, who are willing to share your misery as well as your good fortune. But yes, those things need to be invested in and it is something he looks to me for, to do *for him*.

( I'm sorry about your situation )

I think a lot of what you've talked about requires experience. At least for me it did. Even if someone would have told me that no one is an island...I think I would have continued to try to be one.

For example, the first time I watched the movie "About a Boy" it didn't click. ha ha I still didn't see what was wrong about his life, or what was so much better at the end.

It also requires experience because you don't know what you have until it's gone. Maybe that's something similar in your case for your intj...?

I had a really good friend that moved away. And for some part of my life he was the only friend I ever needed.

When he left, I went out to make more friends...and found that...no matter where I go, it's really difficult to find someone that will ever know me as much as he does and vice versa.

So in that way I really experienced and fully understand that true friends are a gift.

I think in practical terms one needs to try to have good judgment skills in figuring out what kind of people they get a long with, and then one can develop relationships with those specific people...

This caution should be taken because our problem comes in when you have to invest energy.

People are unpredictable, they're not a sure thing, and you don't know if investing your energy into someone is, going to yield the resourceful results you hope for.

And energy is of the upmost importance to an ntj.

You kinda have to take a chance on people. That's not always fun, or easy, because it costs energy. And we have to keep (unnaturally) reminding ourselves along the way that this is a relationship you're trying to invest in because in the end...it will save you so much energy.

So, you have to spend energy to conserve energy. (So it doesn't always look like "the smarter" way)

To go with your example though...

A cat has to pick and choose wisely, through the pack of "dogs." Once they've picked the dog they will have to build the dog's trust, and then the dog identifies you as one of the pack. Once you're in, it' easy sailing.

The problem is that it does not come naturally. To do it would be contrived, almost phony to such a degree that even means-to-an-end reasoning cannot necessarily justify it.

Fiat feles, et pereat mundus!

Thankfully one thing that ntj's are good at is sacrificing for the end result.

And I don't think it's phony to say "I want friends, so I'll make some temporary compromises."

Depending on the types of compromises that are going to be made of course.

And you have to gauge how much you really want that person in you're life. But you wont know until you really know them. See above.

 

[RaptorWizard]

Using no way as way; having no limitation as limitation!

 

[Honor]

They seem to be viewed as narcissistic elitists by many people of other types (or perhaps even by some within their own type), and I'm wondering how accurate these perceptions really may be, or why people actually develop them to begin with.

Honestly, the last two INTJs I had extensive interaction with were narcissistic and elitist. I was surprised because I usually don't give a lot of credence to stereotypes. One of them admitted that he was intolerant, though, and the other one admitted he wasn't a sincere person. It's not like they're not aware of it; they just think it's acceptable to be that way because they are in social groups that promote it. I've noticed that INTJs won't do anything to damage their reputation; I have a hunch that if they were in groups that ridiculed that behavior, they'd drop the act like it was hot.

I know a really great INTJ woman who is not elitist and thinks social clique rules are BS, though. It's not like awesome INTJs don't exist.

 

[anticlimatic]

"Discovering I'm an INTJ" seems to have a similar effect in people as "discovering the writings of Ayn Rand."

 

[uumlau]

"Discovering I'm an INTJ" seems to have a similar effect in people as "discovering the writings of Ayn Rand."

The person in my life who is most interested in Ayn Rand happens to be an ENFP.

No shit.

 

[citizen cane]

The person in my life who is most interested in Ayn Rand happens to be an ENFP.

No shit.

 

[anticlimatic]

The person in my life who is most interested in Ayn Rand happens to be an ENFP.

No shit.

I think it's a Fi thing....

 

[uumlau]

I think it's a Fi thing....

More of an anti-Fe thing, I suspect.

 

[anticlimatic]

More of an anti-Fe thing, I suspect.

What's the difference?

 

[RaptorWizard]

What's the difference?

Fe - “Go to the people. Live with them. Learn from them. Love them. Start with what they know. Build with what they have.
Fi - But with the best leaders, when the work is done, the task accomplished, the people will say 'We have done this ourselves.”

 

[Coriolis]

(Reorganized to facilitate my response.)

YES, I know, you're capable of handling yourself, of handling anything that comes your way. That you don't feel the need to follow the hierarchy within the pack when you see no reason for it - in that I even join you - or that you have no time to waste on social dynamics as you have work to do...

You are vulnerable. Whether you like to hear it or not, you're *extremely* vulnerable. Because you do not do strength in numbers.And you *everytime* overestimate how much you can and should be able to handle, as your pride demands you should be able to handle anything life throws at you, no matter what. You punish yourself for failing to be Atlas and you rarely ask for help. And when you re forced to do so anyway, you're so pessimistic in trusting that the other person will actually provide it and be competent at it that it doesn't exactly inspire them to go out on a limb, for you. And it is why you will *always* be overshadowed by less devoted, less dedicated, less competent people and under appreciated in ways you do not deserve. Because those other people take the smart way instead of the hard way. They realise that standing together, forging those essential bonds you consider a waste of your time will get you *everywhere*.

The two quotes above are contradictory. Either we are able to take care of ourselves and everything we take on, or we are not. We both know the reality of this. INTJs succeed in what we do take on because of how we operate, not in spite of it. Yes, we know our strengths and set goals and make plans with these in mind. We will also make sacrifices to reach our goals, sacrifices that you might not make, or even understand or approve of when we make them. If we looked for our strength in numbers, we would be playing from our weakest suit, and far less successful.

What is the point of it all? The point of it all is to NOT have to stand alone. To have help and a safe haven to go to. To find for that matter people who understand and enjoy what you feel like rambling about, expressing and who in turn enrich your life with their quirks - if only for entertainment purposes. Hell, to just laugh off some of that stress you guys carry around.

Sure, you don't *need* social interaction, friends, bonds, whatever. You also do not need mac and cheese, chocolate milk, fluffy pillows and cuddles, but ya know what? They enhance your life. Water and bread makes you survive, for sure. Life is still nicer with a *** twix bar in your hand and a person to share it with. Even for you guys.

Well, I actually dislike mac and cheese, chocolate milk, and fluffy pillows. But the above is the best and perhaps the only reason for social interaction. Professional networking aside, we really don't need it, but our lives can be enriched by it.

And my INTJ is no **** different. He runs himself down, works 10+ hours a day at work, won't get his personnel to pick up the slack, does not sleep enough, and ends up doing *everything* himself. And when I show concern, he goes 'It's not a big deal, I'm fine!' *hides injured paw behind his back*

It's like having an extra cat.

This sounds just like me; but then my SO likes cats, too.

As for the social thing. Mine is sp-sx and even *he* is starting to notice that in Norway, right now, we have no real friends. He has his work colleagues - who he doesn't trust further than he can throw them, and I have you guys. But our circle of friends which started out as MY circle of friends is back in Belgium. I deliberately didn't build one here as we re only to stay a few years here, but it affects us. He misses them, and so do I. It is *nice* to be able to have a group to call home, to get together with a bunch of people who will be there when life gets you down and who share some of your hobbies and hang out to do silly things. People who are *happy* to see you, who are willing to share your misery as well as your good fortune. But yes, those things need to be invested in and it is something he looks to me for, to do *for him*.

Interesting. I have had the same thoughts at times. My SO and I have few friends as a couple also. When we have made an effort to engage more socially, however, the results have been a dreadful disappointment. It reminds me that the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence.

 

[uumlau]

What's the difference?

Ti is as much or more anit-Fe than Fi.

 

[uumlau]

The two quotes above are contradictory. Either we are able to take care of ourselves and everything we take on, or we are not. We both know the reality of this. INTJs succeed in what we do take on because of how we operate, not in spite of it. Yes, we know our strengths and set goals and make plans with these in mind. We will also make sacrifices to reach our goals, sacrifices that you might not make, or even understand or approve of when we make them. If we looked for our strength in numbers, we would be playing from our weakest suit, and far less successful.

Not "contradictory", just opposite sides of the same coin. Being strong in one aspect makes you vulnerable in its opposite. Being strongly self-reliant makes you less able to take advantage of the strengths of working with others. Being very good at working with others means that if you cannot take advantage of others, you've not only lost that strength, but you haven't developed much in the way of self-reliance.

For my part, while I don't try to be particularly good at working with others, I try to be marginally competent at it, so that when push comes to shove, I'm not totally lost.

 

[Evo]

The two quotes above are contradictory. Either we are able to take care of ourselves and everwith tthing we take on, or we are not. We both know the reality of this. INTJs succeed in what we do take on because of how we operate, not in spite of it. Yes, we know our strengths and set goals and make plans with these in mind. We will also make sacrifices to reach our goals, sacrifices that you might not make, or even understand or approve of when we make them. If we looked for our strength in numbers, we would be playing from our weakest suit, and far less successful.

I think this is where I differ.

Again I think it's because of experience.

I dont think I would have believed someone 2 years ago if they said we are not just dependant or independant creatures, we are interdependent.

Pure independace is an illusion. Same thing with pure dependance.

In that way...yes it seems contradicting...but its because we live in a dualistic world. Where things do not soley live without another.

I think I also believe that if u get all your success accomplished half way through your life and have no one to share it with then we have missed the point. Isnt that losing sight of the big picture?