[INTJ] An INTJ I know is in an Ni-Fi loop--can I help?

[RaptorWizard]

I think this crazy guy named Montalk who invented a website called Transcending the Matrix Control System might be engaged in some kind of Ni-Fi dynamic.

 

[chubber]

When I started communicating with someone with a S, as in someone looking at the details. I think I started to listen and appreciate that kind of person more. At first it felt like everything he said was unrelated or something that I can just ignore until I listened more and his fact finding/details was something I started to appreciate more and more. I could bounce ideas off him and see what he would come up with.

Perhaps you could pair him up with someone that is big on sensing, instead of you trying to do it?

 

[Amargith]

Yeah ok, after the additional info posted, Imma say it: this guy is too far gone to argue with. He might get back to the headspace where you can argue with him, but he aint there atm. So engaging him in his favourite topics is not going to do anything productive.

What he needs is a job. Seriously. I'mma be incredibly Typist and say: INTJs that do not have something to do, something to conquer, something to control and direct - like a job - tend to start taking over the world in other ways. I kid you not. He *needs* a place where he can flex that Ni and Te in a constructive way, instead of letting it cannibalise his mind already. He is like a stallion, stuck in a stable 24/7, instead of out in the meadow where he can run. It *will* drive them bonkers.

So, for you personally, I'd let him ramble about his thoughts - let him bleed it off somewhere - without engaging him. Be accepting of his pov, without validating it, agreeing with it, arguing it, whatever. Let him tell you his side of the story and be understanding as such. Just the fact that you'll let him vent, without anything else, and still want to be around him and *do* stuff with him will do a great deal already for him. He'll feel heard, while getting the contact and friendship he needs. It ll take away a lot of pain and self-doubt, though not all.

Secondly, if you can, find him a way to get back in touch with reality. Preferably through a job that he can feel valuable in, something that is suited to his skill set without his disability getting in the way. Otherwise, a project of some sort where his particular skill set would yield tangible results for him to see, measure and improve on. This will do what [MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] stated before. It'll get him back flexing his Te and get him back in touch with reality. Also, this stage will build up his confidence again. His faith in his Ni, backed by Te. And it will make him a lot less grumpy, defensive, wounded and frustrated, which will lead to less conspiracy theorising. (believe it or not, I do this with cats and play time when they bully others )

Third, if you again can muster the energy or resources: get him out of the house. Like yourself, he is Se-last. That thing has been stabled wayyyyy too long and it is my experience that occasionally INxJs need to be able to go bonkers. Mine does so with drinking- and turning himself into an ESTP moron in the process-, buying yuppie clothes, having the urge to go *do* something completely non-sensical like eating the weirdest, grossest food he can find while going in to town, or even just laughing at the most slap-stick style humour he can find on youtube - I swear I do not recognise that man when he gets that way

But it will make him in the moment again, forget all his angst for a second and be a kid again - without worries. It'll clear his head, hopefully and recharge his batteries. Like the restart button on a computer, it should hopefully clear out any bugs in the system

At the same time, that should provide some temporary relief along with the acceptance you give him (FiSe). Most important though is to get that NiTe back to work, and get it to do something, coz otherwise evil overlord plans will be made

 

[SubtleFighter]

When I started communicating with someone with a S, as in someone looking at the details. I think I started to listen and appreciate that kind of person more. At first it felt like everything he said was unrelated or something that I can just ignore until I listened more and his fact finding/details was something I started to appreciate more and more. I could bounce ideas off him and see what he would come up with.

Perhaps you could pair him up with someone that is big on sensing, instead of you trying to do it?

He's on his own with dating if that's what you mean. But actually, right now he lives with an ISTP (another family member), so that can't hurt.

Yeah ok, after the additional info posted, Imma say it: this guy is too far gone to argue with. He might get back to the headspace where you can argue with him, but he aint there atm. So engaging him in his favourite topics is not going to do anything productive.

Well, since basically everyone's saying the same thing, and I've been suspecting this too, it's probably true. *sigh*

Everything you say has a ring of truth to it. He's got his own little corner of the Internet "conquered.” Yeah, I will try the things that you say. Honestly, I don’t know if I can be totally silent when he’s saying his spiel since I’m more outspoken than that, but I’ll have to play that by ear. As far as getting him to work goes, he literally has been judged by doctors to not be healthy enough to earn a living, so that’s out. . . . but he has the hobby of liking to tinker with electronics and always has a couple of inventions in progress. So maybe I could look around and see if there’s some kind of group or meetup nearby that brings people like that together? And get him, you know . . . interacting with the real world . But yeah, I will definitely try to get him out of the house and doing something productive that’s not political somehow (of course it being something that he is actually interested in doing).

For Se, I think the ISTP family member he lives with can help with that . (He’s an e9, which is how he can stand living with the INTJ.) He always is more than willing to share silly Youtube videos or practice juggling with people or something else that’s completely in the moment. And yeah, I think Se as an inferior function just makes everything extra goofy. When mine gets going, even my SP family members are like at me. That would be great for the INTJ to get in touch with his. That would do him a world of good, I think. But in the end, it’s really up to him to change and only he can do that.

Yeah, thanks again for all your efforts and help . I really appreciate it.

In the spirit of Se, here’s one of the ISTP’s current favorite Youtube videos:

 

[chubber]

He's on his own with dating if that's what you mean. But actually, right now he lives with an ISTP (another family member), so that can't hurt.

hmm I guess I should have said, friend wise, not romantically. I also think ISTJ is better suited, would make a great friend, because it would be more equal between the two, where as with the ISTP, the INTJ will always have the upper hand.

 

[Coriolis]

hmm I guess I should have said, friend wise, not romantically. I also think ISTJ is better suited, would make a great friend, because it would be more equal between the two, where as with the ISTP, the INTJ will always have the upper hand.

I would think the opposite. The ISTP will often get by instinct to the same place the INTJ gets to by planning. Their methods are opposite in more respects. Put otherwise, they compensate better for each other's blind spots. ISTJ and INTJ are too similar for the same kind of balance, and it would be much easier for INTJ to get the upper hand. I suppose in a phrase, the ISTP has a much easier time than the ISTJ in keeping the INTJ guessing, and throwing him curve balls to keep him on his toes.

 

[chubber]

I would think the opposite. The ISTP will often get by instinct to the same place the INTJ gets to by planning. Their methods are opposite in more respects. Put otherwise, they compensate better for each other's blind spots. ISTJ and INTJ are too similar for the same kind of balance, and it would be much easier for INTJ to get the upper hand. I suppose in a phrase, the ISTP has a much easier time than the ISTJ in keeping the INTJ guessing, and throwing him curve balls to keep him on his toes.

I had the exact opposite experience, the ISTP was so interesting at first and then it went all pear shaped for me. I felt I had way too much leeway and it was like I had too much control which made me feel uncomfortable. But that was romantically probably not the same thing when it is just a friend.

 

[freeeekyyy]

It’s not that he’s never been right about any ideas; it’s just that he’s saying now that he’s never been wrong, which is not true at all. To give you some idea of what kinds of things he says, right after the U.S. government shut down, he told me to wait two weeks and Obama would declare himself a dictator. This was right before he said he has been predicting things for twenty years and they’re never wrong. I’ve been debating with myself since then whether or not to bring up that in fact Obama is not a dictator to show him evidence that he can be wrong, but I ultimately don’t think that will do anyone any good. Also, years ago, he drew up a map of what the world would look like by the year 2000, and it included Atlantis being raised up. For decades now, he has been keeping tons of canned and jarred food in the basement in case of some kind of apocalypse, and his most frequent gifts to his family members are survival gear.

This has been going on for DECADES. Of course he has the right to believe what he wants to believe, but the problem is that he brings up stuff all the time, mostly controversial political stuff. And he says it to people, even people he doesn’t know very well, as if his opinion is an established fact and it will be obvious to them that what he’s saying is right. And then there’s this:



He is exactly like this. But he has no idea about the effect that he has on people. He won’t let people peacefully disagree with him, but keeps bringing up this stuff every conversation and getting aggressive, and then gets really confused about why everyone stays away from him. I don’t think it’s intentional at all, but it’s definitely destructive.

I’ve lurking on PerC for the past couple months, and I think RobynC is a mild version of him.




This is very interesting. My family member actually has been out of work for a couple of years due to severe health problems, and he’s now on permanent disability. And now that you mention this, I realize that his paranoia and obsessions with his conspiracy theories have gotten more pronounced since this happened. The only interactions he has with people are family members and talking to people on the Internet who agree with him. It makes sense that he would not have much back-and-forth with people who challenge his ideas, and so it feeds on itself even more. Hmm . . . I’ll have to brainstorm and see if I can think of some way to encourage him to get himself out of the house and interacting with people, like through volunteering or some kind of social group that he would be interested in.

That doesn't sound like just an Ni-Fi loop to me; that sounds like mental illness.

 

[SubtleFighter]

That doesn't sound like just an Ni-Fi loop to me; that sounds like mental illness.

I agree. But I was asking in hopes that I could maybe help in some way. But it seems like it's up to him.