[MBTI General] Surviving in a Feeling-dominant culture

[Coriolis]

I thought the same thing...I am, and 4 other people, are 100% positive that he is an ISFP, E9.

*shrugs* I don't get why he shuts down and blows up at the same time...but I'm pretty sure he's not healthy...I mean..his mom still does his laundry...

I think he is nitpicky about emotions and sensations...I'm not allowed to talk to him about death, the excretion system, people that he doesn't like, I was never allowed to interrupt "the moment" in bed, etc...or he gets pissy or shuts down....or even both...shit like that seems more emotional than Ti I think.

Could be Se/Fi, then. Se finds all those details, and Fi directs the finding toward areas of personal hurt or value.

If Fe works like a mirror then I can talk about the type of atomosphere I'd like to have with the Fe user.

But with Fi... they feel the way they feel, because it's the way they feel...it's just fog to me.

I think what [MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] had to say about the expectations of certian cues and rules was right.

If you just abide by the "rules" you're good to go.

The real problem comes in when you don't want to abide by the "rules".

If that's the case...I would get a job where I didn't have to say "Hi" to anyone. But I have grown accustomed to the "rules." *shrugs*

Yes, we can't help feeling the way we feel. We don't have to act on it, though. This is where Te comes in, and other functions. If I am any indication, Fi-users will follow the rules - up to a point. That point for me is where I feel I have to betray some core value to follow the rules. Then I balk. It is noteworthy that even when I decide to follow the rules anyway, in the interests of some greater goal as determined by Ni/Te, I feel almost dirty for doing it.

 

[Evo]

Could be Se/Fi, then. Se finds all those details, and Fi directs the finding toward areas of personal hurt or value.


Yes, we can't help feeling the way we feel. We don't have to act on it, though. This is where Te comes in, and other functions. If I am any indication, Fi-users will follow the rules - up to a point. That point for me is where I feel I have to betray some core value to follow the rules. Then I balk. It is noteworthy that even when I decide to follow the rules anyway, in the interests of some greater goal as determined by Ni/Te, I feel almost dirty for doing it.

Hmmm. I guess I know what you mean by feeling dirty.

Almost like not being true to myself.

I rarely feel that way though. I think I have tried to the best of my abilities to stop fighting internally with my inf Fi. If it were soley up to Te I would still be acting carelessly towards others. I used to have a "take no prisoners attitude" on most subjects. Now I only have that attitude only with a few.

I guess I need examples. Do you have examples of when you feel like you're betraying your core values to follow the rules?

I don't think Fe's rules differs to that extreme for me. At least not the ones I have to participate in to do my job effectively.

Again I actually think that I have more problems with Fi in this department.

My boss (ISFP) believes that we are supposed to call out people when they do something wrong. Mostly if it's not that big of a mistake. She's coming from it in an immature, vindictive "The world should work the way I want it to work" stance. So if someone is late the, supervisor (ENFJ) asks people "Why were you late?" in front of everybody at a shift meeting. Because he is told to do so by his boss.

Or my boss will tell me to write down the most inept things as repercussions. I don't do it. I don't let myself get to the point that I feel dirty...

 

[WhoCares]

How do you do it? I feel like I'm trying to communicate with aliens sometimes,
What other obstacles have you experienced? And most importantly, have you found ways to deal with them?

I've made peace with the fact that I probably won't have a meaningful connection with any other humans on this planet. That was a load off and I can now stop wanting to poke my eyeball with a fork trying to make conversation. I get by in the world by being very eccentric, flamboyantly and loudly so. That way, no-one tries to make a connection, nor do they expect me to be just like them. I am written off as 'weird'. Job done, fast efficient and effective for as long as they know me. I then focus on the things which are important to me and immerse myself in them.

Life got good for me when I realised this. I am not like them, I can't fake being like them and nor do I want to. My niche is in doing my own thing so forget them and get on with it.

 

[lunalum]

I have an even harder time with the fact that this culture only sees intuition in its most negative form, or at best as a sort of 'game'. I can't help but think other languages must have better words for describing it.

 

[Cellmold]

I have an even harder time with the fact that this culture only sees intuition in its most negative form, or at best as a sort of 'game'. I can't help but think other languages must have better words for describing it.

Yeah this is a good point. Even as someone who is probably a sensing type, I notice daily that anything too creative, inventive or 'clever' is dismissed as being naive and childish.

Of course those aren't necessarily associated with intuition, but there is a correlation I think. But essentially the attitude that causes the most damage is the one where people believe everyone is the same, just with different influences and if only they got with the program and buckled down like everyone else, they would be happy.

It's agonisingly obvious to me that this is like a collective projection of that same negative intuition you mentioned, even if we ignore MBTI here and any other personality theory, it only takes a small moment of observation to see the patterns throughout a society.

People with inspiration are regularly trivialised as being infantile and immature in their thinking and ideas, it's a sad reality that most are only recognised long after they are dead and usually by people of a similar bent.

What is the point of these theories if not to at least try to appreciate other ways of thinking and approaches to life?

 

[Evo]

I've made peace with the fact that I probably won't have a meaningful connection with any other humans on this planet. That was a load off and I can now stop wanting to poke my eyeball with a fork trying to make conversation. I get by in the world by being very eccentric, flamboyantly and loudly so. That way, no-one tries to make a connection, nor do they expect me to be just like them. I am written off as 'weird'. Job done, fast efficient and effective for as long as they know me. I then focus on the things which are important to me and immerse myself in them.

Life got good for me when I realised this. I am not like them, I can't fake being like them and nor do I want to. My niche is in doing my own thing so forget them and get on with it.

Geez

I have probably not gotten to the same point because I've got some E7 in me somewhers. I think it just makes me internally want to sacrifice something for the better. However eventually I find that it's all in vain. And that I'm better off doing what I want in without compromise in the first place.

I have an even harder time with the fact that this culture only sees intuition in its most negative form, or at best as a sort of 'game'. I can't help but think other languages must have better words for describing it.

I find this quote to be very relevant "For thought is a bird of space, that in a cage of words may indeed unfold its wings but cannot fly."

That's the best that I've ever seen intuition described.

Yeah this is a good point. Even as someone who is probably a sensing type, I notice daily that anything too creative, inventive or 'clever' is dismissed as being naive and childish.

Of course those aren't necessarily associated with intuition, but there is a correlation I think. But essentially the attitude that causes the most damage is the one where people believe everyone is the same, just with different influences and if only they got with the program and buckled down like everyone else, they would be happy.

It's agonisingly obvious to me that this is like a collective projection of that same negative intuition you mentioned, even if we ignore MBTI here and any other personality theory, it only takes a small moment of observation to see the patterns throughout a society.

People with inspiration are regularly trivialised as being infantile and immature in their thinking and ideas, it's a sad reality that most are only recognised long after they are dead and usually by people of a similar bent.

What is the point of these theories if not to at least try to appreciate other ways of thinking and approaches to life?

 

[WALMART]

*deletes post, flips table*

 

[Evo]

*deletes post, flips table*

doth I detect rage, my good sir?

When I have rage at work I pull out a piece of paper that I carry around. It has a rage face drawn on it, and I show it to the other person that also has rage at work. I have found that to be much more effective than table flipping

What happened to your post?

 

[WALMART]

doth I detect rage, my good sir?

When I have rage at work I pull out a piece of paper that I carry around. It has a rage face drawn on it, and I show it to the other person that also has rage at work. I have found that to be much more effective than table flipping

What happened to your post?

Hahaha. It is unfortunate, then, that I am missing this guidance from my life.

I can't remember. I am self-forgetting?

 

[Evo]

Hahaha. It is unfortunate, then, that I am missing this guidance from my life.

I can't remember. I am self-forgetting?

Yes, it's most effective when you hold the rage face card and use the full on "grit your teeth smile" at the same time. ha ha sorta like this --->

Ah yes, self-forgetting, one of the pleasures of being an E9 i suppose ha ha

 

[rogue350]

How do you do it? I feel like I'm trying to communicate with aliens sometimes, though I've largely given up communicating at all about anything substantial. The worst problem for me seems to be that people assume something's wrong if I don't display enthusiasm. And they expect a certain level of it almost constantly. That's impossible for me. For the most part, I just *do not* express emotion easily (unless the stimuli is extreme), and plus, I don't get excited about the same things that most people do. The difference in my emotional reactions themselves is sometimes even more alienating to them (and vice versa) than my lack of "sufficient" reaction in general.

I don't think I really care, on the whole, but it does seem to put me at a disadvantage, and it's something I'd like to learn to work around, if possible.

Of course, there are many other obstacles to living in an F-dom culture. The hysterical sanctimoniousness of other conservatives generally makes me give them a wide berth, and I'm currently considering leaving the Republican party for the Libertarians. I'm fiscally conservative, but socially and morally moderate-liberal. But I tend to think a vote for the Libertarians is a vote wasted, or effectively, applied to the Democrats. This is just one more example.

What other obstacles have you experienced? And most importantly, have you found ways to deal with them?

Fake it until you make it. My mother indoctrinated me with some useful tools that help me get along, to an extent, with a majority of people. I always smile at people and I can laugh, etc. and I try to stay away from certain conversations because most people are irrational and unwilling to hear my points. I think some of the issues that I have had while communicating with others have led me to be a bit more skeptical when deciding whether to start serious conversations with people. Stick to small talk and you'll be just fine.

 

[chubber]

Fake it until you make it. My mother indoctrinated me with some useful tools that help me get along, to an extent, with a majority of people. I always smile at people and I can laugh, etc. and I try to stay away from certain conversations because most people are irrational and unwilling to hear my points. I think some of the issues that I have had while communicating with others have led me to be a bit more skeptical when deciding whether to start serious conversations with people. Stick to small talk and you'll be just fine.

INTJ's small talk is their down fall

 

[rogue350]

INTJ's small talk is their down fall

I think I am relatively good at it. Just pretend to care and like the person and seem interested in what they are talking about. Sometimes I go off on tangents and talk about things that other people find "random".
I have noticed that it is very difficult to find other people my age who I can talk to and enjoy our conversation so I really cherish those people in my life because they are few and far between.

 

[PimpinMcBoltage]

I wouldn't say that mainstream culture is very feeling orientated at all, not exactly deprived of it but most people would rather think about the price of something than of the value of the same thing.

I've always wondered why INT go on about hating other people, meanwhile wanting to be accepted by said disgusting people.

I think most people want to be around people on their own terms, and that Introverts with a preference for thinking would generally express their usually over/under desire for human contact in particularly poor ways. That sentiment probably isn't even just applicable with just INTs. It's likely that such a thing is confused for that, when in reality it's just people with misanthropic tendencies, or if you want to be functional about it. Thinking dominants and Fi doms.

 

[rogue350]

I wouldn't say that mainstream culture is very feeling orientated at all, not exactly deprived of it but most people would rather think about the price of something than of the value of the same thing.

I guess I'm not sure what most people are. I suppose a majority of people don't think about how their actions affect other people but I'm not sure that the majority of people are thinking either. It does seem that more people utilize emotion while decision-making rather than objectivity, which would hint towards feeling rather than thinking.

 

[Evo]

Fake it until you make it. My mother indoctrinated me with some useful tools that help me get along, to an extent, with a majority of people. I always smile at people and I can laugh, etc. and I try to stay away from certain conversations because most people are irrational and unwilling to hear my points. I think some of the issues that I have had while communicating with others have led me to be a bit more skeptical when deciding whether to start serious conversations with people. Stick to small talk and you'll be just fine.

I see this with some other ENTP's as well. I wish that I knew some ENTP's irl.

(I like your avatar)

I think I am relatively good at it. Just pretend to care and like the person and seem interested in what they are talking about. Sometimes I go off on tangents and talk about things that other people find "random".
I have noticed that it is very difficult to find other people my age who I can talk to and enjoy our conversation so I really cherish those people in my life because they are few and far between.

I am sooooo bad at small talk after a certain point. Where do you get the energy? Must be from keeping it random with Ne maybe?

Also it's hard to keep my mouth shut with a dominant extraverted function.

I try to follow the rule "Don't speak unless spoken to" or the rule "If you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all," but those rules seem like the opposite of what my Te wants to do

Te wants to cut to the chase with everything....so small talk is something that I actually have to consciously think about

So I would like to take make the best of your advice. What would be an example of a conversation irl that you would stay away from? Like controversial stuffs? ie abortion, politics, sex, fracking, Miley Cyrus, religion, etc...? I guess my feeling is what's there left to talk about? ha ha weather, food, and exercise lol?

 

[freeeekyyy]

I've never understood why people get so concerned with this crap. How do you survive? Mainly, you stop whining about it...

 

[Coriolis]

So I would like to take make the best of your advice. What would be an example of a conversation irl that you would stay away from? Like controversial stuffs? ie abortion, politics, sex, fracking, Miley Cyrus, religion, etc...? I guess my feeling is what's there left to talk about? ha ha weather, food, and exercise lol?

I dislike small talk as well, and can't resist turning small talk into "big talk" whenever possible. It usually works to go historical about even the most controversial of topics. Politics? Discuss the constitution, or the early days of the US. Abortion? Discuss what women did centuries ago to try to end unwanted pregnancy, or adoption/fostering or even infanticide practices in classical Greece/Rome or elsewhere. Religion? Talk about Joseph Campbell, or the Venus figurines unearthed in Europe. Great fun, as long as you know something about it. And it that doesn't work, I'm done.

 

[Evo]

I've never understood why people get so concerned with this crap. How do you survive? Mainly, you stop whining about it...

I find that ironic cause your talking to a buncha people that probably don't introvert their feelings well

I think that the OP should read - how to "thrive" in a feeling dominant world...at least that's how I took it.

I mean...come on...we are all surviving by definition just fine. yes.

But I think thriving is a totally different story...

Another thing that I find ironic is that when ppl are extraverting their thinking, others take that as complaining/whining. Not that I'm assuming that's what you're doing here or anything...just find it ironic. I think when people are extraverting their thinking they're trying to define the problem so they can quickly resolve it.

I don't think the problems of trying to thrive in a feeling dominant culture are going to be solved by not talking about them. Step one is always admitting there's a problem.

I dislike small talk as well, and can't resist turning small talk into "big talk" whenever possible. It usually works to go historical about even the most controversial of topics. Politics? Discuss the constitution, or the early days of the US. Abortion? Discuss what women did centuries ago to try to end unwanted pregnancy, or adoption/fostering or even infanticide practices in classical Greece/Rome or elsewhere. Religion? Talk about Joseph Campbell, or the Venus figurines unearthed in Europe. Great fun, as long as you know something about it. And it that doesn't work, I'm done.

Ah yes, I very much try to do this too. I can only get so far with some people though, unfortunately. I actually don't know that many people that are even interested in discussing such things as the constitution or even know who Joseph Campbell was.

I know what you mean though. That is a good point. I can at least talk to some guys about history. The girls I know, want nothing to do with history though. I have even tried talking about the history of cosmetics with some of them Their eyes usually glaze over after about 2 sentences ha ha.

Sometimes I wish that I was more of an introvert because of this. It's like on one hand I want interaction to energize me, but on the other hand I don't want to waste my energy on unfruitful convo's. I give in sometimes if I find that I'm needing interaction more than the substance of the convo though.

 

[chubber]

I dislike small talk as well, and can't resist turning small talk into "big talk" whenever possible. It usually works to go historical about even the most controversial of topics. Politics? Discuss the constitution, or the early days of the US. Abortion? Discuss what women did centuries ago to try to end unwanted pregnancy, or adoption/fostering or even infanticide practices in classical Greece/Rome or elsewhere. Religion? Talk about Joseph Campbell, or the Venus figurines unearthed in Europe. Great fun, as long as you know something about it. And it that doesn't work, I'm done.

A simple question?

Yeah, I go back way to try and cover all sides of the story before giving a final answer, which is really difficult, because it is so dynamic for me most of the time. By the time I got a few sentences in, their eyes already rolled or *oh look squirrel*