Self Delusion and Healthy Self Feedback

[heart]

I deserve good things.
I am entitled to my share of happiness.
I refuse to beat myself up. I am attractive person.
I am fun to be with.
I’m good enough, I’m smart enough, and dog-gone it, people like me.

Stuart Smalley​

I know some people *cough* in-laws who spend a lot of time giving themselves these insipid self-pep talks and yet they remain as messed up as ever. They are fully of sumerged anger that comes out in snide remarks, invalidation, cut-downs, inability to be truly close to others, acting on impulses without thinking, etc. Their positive self talk appears to have also become a defense mechanism that prevents them from seeing the harm they do.

Their critical T has not been transmuted into anything healthy and useful for them, nor has it been engaged in anything positive, instead it seems they are using F based mantras to try and wish the T away, but of course it can never go away, so it goes underground, becomes twice as strong and more negative than ever in the darkness like that.

When does positive self talk become a negative self delusion?

This is a topic of great interest to me, the ways all humans delude self.

I often hear people say they want to remove their inner critical voices, but is this healthy even? Wouldn't a better way be to try and be able to listen to the inner critic more impersonally and try to perceive between when it is a rational concern that we could improve on and when it is an irrational fear? Isn't using blanket positive self talk acutally putting a gag on a vital part of ourself? For a feeler, I believe putting a gag on the T could be one of the most dangerous things ever done.

Is it better to use mantras to try and cover up and deny the inner critic, or is it better to try and change our reactions to the inner critic to try and discern when it is a valid criticism or an unreasonable one and to use its feedback as a means of healthy self growth? Where is the inner illness anyway? Is it in the critical voice itself or our own over-reaction to it?


Thoughts from others? I am truly interested in other viewpoints.

..

 

[disregard]

The Me Era.

"I tell it like it is, and if that makes me a bitch then that's your problem."

It's like a toxic imitation of modesty.

 

[Seanan]

I have a DIL who is Borderline and has hurt everyone she's ever gotten involved with and that includes her own kids. I don't know if she's a good example because of the BPD (high functioning) but she has more grandiose ideas about herself than anyone I've ever known. This, of course, gives her the "right" to sit up on a high horse criticizing everyone and running the lives of those she steam rolls or blackmails.

It seems to me there is a self-talk gauge and that is other people. If your actions, based on your self-talk, are hurting others then there's something wrong with it. Unfortunately, people who do that usually rationalize the pain they cause others by blaming the ones they hurt... as in "I'm such a perfect, wonderful, person that there has to be something wrong with them... they're just overly sensitive.... or they deserved what they got." Well, that might wash a few times but when the great perponderance of people have had the same experience with you.. you really should revise your self-concept. "Goodness" produces good behavior and results.

 

[heart]

The Me Era.

"I tell it like it is, and if that makes me a bitch then that's your problem."

It's like a toxic imitation of modesty.

Yes, I agree about this. It is a swaggering denial of healthy self checks too. It is like the person knows that there is something controversial about just putting it all out there, but they want to deflect the heat it may gain them to do so.

It seems to me there is a self-talk gauge and that is other people.

Other people can be a source of perspective, but we have to realize as well they can be just as biased as we can be and also view us through their own delusions and self defense mechanisms and over sensititivity. Sometimes they may also be impaired, tired, stressed, drunk, etc. We cannot always know what is going with them personally.

It is true that often other people's reactions to us tell us more about them than ourselves. This is why I think it is so important to try and listen to the inner critic more impersonally and take its feedback less extreme, less all or nothing and more as a source of vital feedback.

 

[Nadir]

Oh, dear.

 

[heart]

Oh, dear.

Yes, care to expound? I am sure you have some very interesting thoughts on the topic.

 

[Nadir]

I'm sorry... I am sort of taken aback by the value-judgments in the original post. Um, I don't really have much to expound upon -- but really, I would rather accept this kind of behaivour as an aspect of that person's self-expression. In my view, characterizing it as "self-delusion" never really does any good, (just as I view the "positive" characterization of self-talks to be fruitless) -- unless one has better suggestions for the person to replace the behaivour. Obviously there aren't many people I know and I'm close to that does this, though I have conversed with a few of my friends about this occasionally -- as long as I don't see them as being self-destructive I don't see why I should judge them or interfere. And even then you would have to be pretty gentle in pointing out a "better", more concrete course of action.

I'll edit in some more thoughts...

The subject is on a very relative sort of level... for example... what is delusion and is this the only way of deluding one self?
When you say...

This is a topic of great interest to me, the ways all humans delude self.

...how are you not sure that you're not deluding yourself? Maybe you are. Yet unless someone else seriously points it out to you you'd never believe that you are.

On the "inner critic",
How can you be sure that the inner critic, or for example even your Fi, has your best interests at heart? (no pun intended) The lens that the inner critic uses might be a different one than the one who does the self-talks. That doesn't mean it's any more right. Not even your reactions are able to discern it completely -- you're making a conscious decision to trust them, instead.
What is healthy self-growth? I don't think you can really describe it. Perhaps the people who'd like to remove their inner critics have a point -- maybe their inner critics are leading them astray, and removing or shushing might result in another way of growing healthily.

On defense mechanisms,
Again, these change. Your post might be a defense mechanism in itself -- you might be thinking that you're "higher" than those who self-talk and "delude themselves". There might even be a nice name for it. Or perhaps you aren't -- but even then, no one can make sure that you are. It is the same deal with these kind of talks -- IMO you can't simply deem them as defense mechanisms when they might be serving some other purpose that perhaps you're not seeing. Maybe people *are* changed by them, or maybe the talks help them go on with their life with greater ease than without the talks.

Okay, sorry for the editfest, heart! That will be all for now... and it goes without saying that I respect your views and it is not my intent to invalidate them or otherwise trample them...

 

[heart]

I'm sorry... I am sort of taken aback by the value-judgments in the original post. Um, I don't really have much to expound upon -- but really, I would rather accept this kind of behaivour as an aspect of that person's self-expression. In my view, characterizing it as "self-delusion" never really does any good, (just as I view the "positive" characterization of self-talks to be fruitless) -- unless one has better suggestions for the person to replace the behaivour. Obviously there aren't many people I know and I'm close to that does this, though I have conversed with a few of my friends about this occasionally -- as long as I don't see them as being self-destructive I don't see why I should judge them or interfere. And even then you would have to be pretty gentle in pointing out a "better", more concrete course of action.

That's a fair criticism.

I did actually have a suggestion here that it is better to try and gain perspective over the inner critic than to try and hush it up through mantras.

BUT I am not suggesting that I *should* tell anyone else to change their ways, I am expressing my own opinion here that it is a self delusion to try and use mantras to quiet the inner critic. The inner critic won't go away, just goes under cover. I am talking about the topic for the sake of talking about the topic on a message and hearing other opinions in reaction to my words here, not trying to change people's behaviors. There's a difference.

BTW, I have done the mantra bit earlier in my life. I do believe it is a self delusion and like trying to place a band aid on a amputated arm!

I ask again, when dealing with the inner critical voice, where is the true sickness? In the voice itself or in our own over reaction to it?

 

[Mempy]

HEY! People DO like me! I am practically the HOTTEST thing since sliced bread!

I mean, don't you think so?

 

[heart]

I'll edit in some more thoughts...

The subject is on a very relative sort of level... for example... what is delusion and is this the only way of deluding one self?
When you say...

Where did I say this was the only way to delude self?

Everything in life is relative, does this mean nothing can be discussed in a forum for the sake of discussion?

...how are you not sure that you're not deluding yourself? Maybe you are. Yet unless someone else seriously points it out to you you'd never believe that you are.

Without seeking with the self for the ways in which we delude ourselves, we haven't a prayer of dealing with ourselves honestly. Other people can only give us reflections and those reflections are always contaminated with their own internal delusions.

The external world is not always the best source of true direction. If we rely on the community solely for our judgement and that community becomes corrupted, then no one can find clarity. A billion zeros still equal zero.

On the "inner critic",
How can you be sure that the inner critic, or for example even your Fi, has your best interests at heart? (no pun intended) The lens that the inner critic uses might be a different one than the one who does the self-talks. That doesn't mean it's any more right. Not even your reactions are able to discern it completely -- you're making a conscious decision to trust them, instead.
What is healthy self-growth? I don't think you can really describe it.

Of course they both use different lenses. I get the impression you highlighted on certain words in my post and didn't get the content fully. Fi would not be the source for negative critical voice, it would Te. Fi can filter Ne and Si's perceptions and delude without the needed feedback from Te. So if Fi pep talks to silence critical Te could be a dangerous idea. The better choice would be to take a more impersonal view of the Te and try to discern what things I could improve on by and by and not to react emotionally and negatively just because the inner voice is pointing out a weak area.

Healthy self growth is something to be strived for, it is in the striving that we grow, not the destination.

 

[Geoff]

I am about to go through a process at work called 360 degree feedback.

Basically you answer questions all about the main attributes used at work (organisation, judgement, team work, leadership etc). Then, so anonymously, do a whole bunch of your colleagues. Typically people you work with, for, and who work for you. So probably 10-15 in total.

Then, it's all compiled, and you get to find out where there are shortfalls in your understanding about yourself, where you do well, and where you annoy the hell out of people.

I've done it once before.. it was enlightening.

 

[heart]

On defense mechanisms,
Again, these change. Your post might be a defense mechanism in itself -- you might be thinking that you're "higher" than those who self-talk and "delude themselves". There might even be a nice name for it. Or perhaps you aren't -- but even then, no one can make sure that you are.

Actually, I am wanting to find and eliminate the same behaviors in myself, but here I just want to discuss the issue for its own sake as abstract topic.

If a person has an inner critical voice and they refuse to listen to it, but instead cover it up with mantras, that is a form of delusion, fooling self into believing the doubts don't exist. There is no way around that. I never said it was the only way to delude self, that was an implication you generated.

In the end, the only that matters is the truth within the person themselves.

No one else needs to "make sure" that another person is being honest with themselves or can. In my original post, I am expression my own opinions and judgements about others and trying to ask a question about humanity in general in regards to it. I use them only as examples for sake of discussion.

No one can ever be totally sure they are not deluding themselves. It is another thing to be strived for, humans can and I believe should strive for removing their self delusions as a way of clearning up delusions on a mass scale. This is the only way to change the face of human nature.

It is the same deal with these kind of talks -- IMO you can't simply deem them as defense mechanisms when they might be serving some other purpose that perhaps you're not seeing. .

If one sits around saying "I am a wonderful, good looking person and people like me!" and then you are also at times blowing up in rages and telling people they are losers, telling them to p*ss off or over reacting when people make innocent comments because you've got unconscious self loathing issues then I don't know what you call that.... The dirt that gets swept under the carpet is still there and creeps out in puffs when people walk on it. Pretty soon the place is still just as dirty as before.

 

[Nadir]

Where did I say this was the only way to delude self?

Everything in life is relative, does this mean nothing can be discussed in a forum for the sake of discussion?

True, you did not say this -- I jumped to a conclusion.
But, to respond in kind -- nor did I say that nothing can be discussed, so that's settled!

Without seeking with the self for the ways in which we delude ourselves, we haven't a prayer of dealing with ourselves honestly. Other people can only give us reflections and those reflections are always contaminated with their own internal delusions.

We can seek the self for the ways, as you say -- but can we trust what it says in response? If we don't, what are we left with?

The external world is not always the best source of true direction. If we rely on the community solely for our judgement and that community becomes corrupted, then no one can find clarity. A billion zeros still equal zero.

You're right, and I wasn't suggesting this.

Of course they both use different lenses. I get the impression you highlighted on certain words in my post and didn't get the content fully. Fi would not be the source for negative critical voice, it would Te. Fi can filter Ne and Si's perceptions and delude without the needed feedback from Te. So if Fi pep talks to silence critical Te could be a dangerous idea. The better choice would be to take a more impersonal view of the Te and try to discern what things I could improve on by and by and not to react emotionally and negatively just because the inner voice is pointing out a weak area.

It's not really about the functions -- it's about the feedback. You say, for example, that Te is the source of the negative, critical voice. Brushing aside typology for the moment, how can you trust that the voice is telling you the truth, and that what it's pointing out is indeed a weak area -- perhaps it's just a part of you, even if "weak", that you haven't accepted for what it is. Plus, when you distill the voice's feedback into things you could improve on, you run the risk of pep talking again. Consider that even at this moment, this contemplation of this psychologically complex process might be possibly detracting from improving on things you could be improving on. And,

Healthy self growth is something to be strived for, it is in the striving that we grow, not the destination.

Is this not a mantra?

 

[heart]

Is this not a mantra?

A mantra is a statement said over and over, without thought, specifically designed to stop thought.


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I didn't want to spend this much time on here today, I promised myself I wouldn't and yet here I am! ugh... okay just a quick example of what I am talking about:


Say Farquar wants to be a writer.

Farquar's inner critic says "Who the hell do you think you are! You'll never be a writer, you big dummy!"

Farquar can respond in a variety of ways.

One way would be to shut this voice up with: "I am a creative person and I can be a writer! I have wonderful ideas that people will value." This is a mantra if said every time the critical voice comes up and used to deny any truth in the voice. The doubts do not go away, just covered up and any valid info they could have imparted is denied as well. Now if a publishing house would just take his head jumping, meandering masterpieces, he would be a success!

OR

Farquar could say "Gee, I really do not know anything right now about writing a book except the basics of grammar and spelling, inner voice is right about this, but the inner voice is also too extreme...I can learn about writing I can educate myself and work on it little by little. This is the way life works. I will put the investment and hard work into it. If in time it appears I cannot do it, well then at least I can say I gave it a good try but most likely I can become successful if I apply myself the right way."

 

[Seanan]

Other people can be a source of perspective, but we have to realize as well they can be just as biased as we can be and also view us through their own delusions and self defense mechanisms and over sensititivity. Sometimes they may also be impaired, tired, stressed, drunk, etc. We cannot always know what is going with them personally.

It is true that often other people's reactions to us tell us more about them than ourselves. This is why I think it is so important to try and listen to the inner critic more impersonally and take its feedback less extreme, less all or nothing and more as a source of vital feedback.

"Well, that might wash a few times but when the great perponderance of people have had the same experience with you.. you really should revise your self-concept."

 

[heart]

"Well, that might wash a few times but when the great perponderance of people have had the same experience with you.. you really should revise your self-concept."

It can depend on whom one is around and how one is picking the people they associate with. If one comes from a toxic family where roles are locked into place and people filter new information out selectively, then it will be hard for those people to see you in your true nature, they will always see their own prejudicial preconcieved notions. I have seen people trapped into false perceptions of themselves in situations like this and very painful to watch.

If one is consistantly picking the same kind of dysfunctional companions, they may also have the same types of conflicts coming up again and again with you, different faces, same basic story. So problem there is as much about how one is picking the companions as about one's own persona.

So many people have their own toxic bagage coloring how they view others. So many people have accepted the corruption of the external, popular culture they cannot discern truth clearly. If we allow them the power to frame our truth, we'll be just as lost as they are. Really, we have to be selective in those we to allow to give us perspective like this.

Of course, I am biased towards a person learning to tune into their own inner voice, but to hear it in perspective and more impersonal tone. We hear it often so negatively and then shun it because the negative/direness of the message seems insurmountable.

The better path seems to try and make a friend of the inner critic, to see it as the undeveloped, inferior voice it usually is and say "Friend, I hear and value your worries, but trust me, you don't need to put the dire consequenses and all or nothing thinking on this, I will take care of our worries by and by." Embrace the shadow and learn from it, more than try to fight it so hard. Okay so all, JMO.

 

[Councilor]

I think it began when I was fourteen. I used to wash my hands excessively. My mother and sister would remind me consistently that there was something weird about it. I knew it was my choice - because it was. When I tried to stop, I suddenly felt a voice calling me from the edge, warning me of impending doom. Suddenly I'm forced into something I don't want to do?! I had to take a leap of faith to remedy it. I've never looked back.

Fear is to be ignored. Only when it incapacitates my ability to think properly, I will I yield, and that isn't often. It is dangerous to use this line of thinking, 'I am smarter than a gut feeling." The gut feeling will be considered, and if it has some weight it may be placed on the table.

This of course is a different kind of self delusion called Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

 

[alcea rosea]

When does positive self talk become a negative self delusion?

I think anything that goes to a extreme can be bad. If a person doens't admit there is anything negative anywhere, I would call that self delusion. If a person sees no positive things anywhere, I would call that self delusion also (or depressed rather).

I have some experience with overly positive people who block the negative out of their lives. Or rather try to block it out (I don't think it's possible to block the negative out totally, they just think it's out). There is negative things in everybody's life at some point of their lives and the best way of dealing with those points is to go through the thing, negative or positive. By blocking a negative memory (for example) doesn't mean that it doesn't exists or that it wouldn't bother a person somehow inside.

 

[Totenkindly]

Farquar could say "Gee, I really do not know anything right now about writing a book except the basics of grammar and spelling, inner voice is right about this, but the inner voice is also too extreme...I can learn about writing I can educate myself and work on it little by little. This is the way life works. I will put the investment and hard work into it. If in time it appears I cannot do it, well then at least I can say I gave it a good try but most likely I can become successful if I apply myself the right way."

There it is.

That's the "healthy" response... I think. (although I'd say "achieve SOME level of success even if I would never publish" or something like that).

1. Be realistic and honest about the difficulties.
2. Kill the "evil voices" that would derail and destroy you before you even try.
3. Monitor progress and change as you go, accordingly, based on what seems best for you.

It was odd the opening post focused solely on the critical T. There's a critical F, too, you know, that says things like:
- If you do this, you're a selfish and evil person.
- You're ugly on the inside or outside.
- You don't give enough.
- You're a bad mother/father/child.
- You'll never be as good as so-and-so.
- You're not keeping up with your responsibilities.

And so on.

For me, the critical voices probably WOULD get labeled more as Te and Fe.... external voices trying to undermine and oppress me. My own self-judgment, once I got it anchored, is actually fair to myself, and I have just had to learn how to fend off the external ones.

And here is one of the "anchor" quotes as far as personality goes:

In the end, the only that matters is the truth within the person themselves.

That could spawn another whole thread.

 

[Xander]

I've got to find that quote about all is self delusion.... It's wonderfully worrying.

Oh and Geoff, those 360 appraisals sound great... but scary! I've heard of them before... my father suggested them for the useless sacks of flesh (other's call them my managers but they're just hopeless optimists).

Anyhow.. self feedback is dangerous. To advance you have to move, pick a direction and moderate your path. To start with you only have directions which relate to exterior thing to go buy, often toward a goal which is imposed and not developed internally. As soon as you move have you started in the right direction?

Even working with the check of other's reactions you are still basically relying on your ability to notice inconsistencies and also read people. Plus who says they are a good measure? If you are the most developed person in a bunch of childish people then they most probably aren't a good guide!

Perhaps the best guide is whether you are happy or not. Not just happy as in "I'm sucking a lolly pop on a hot day" kind of happy but the kind where you are satisfied with your current situation. Contentment.

Personally I regard contentment as a sign that everything is working fine. The only problem comes when you're not content but you're not sure why....

Let's face it, correcting yourself is like bailing out with a spoon some days. Other days it's more like cleaning a patio with a Karcher.

I guess the best analogy to any theory of self correction is probably a war. You can win and lose battles in a war but to win the war itself you must ensure supply lines, capture high ground, predict enemy movements and so on.. It's never straight forward and nor is it easy to tell who is winning in a close run war such as these usually are.