[NF] INFPs, what do INFJs do that drives you nuts?

[Fidelia]

Ah, I see. ENFP to the core, I am horribly unobservant, and unsurprisingly I have not noted that! Props to you for being an observant ENFP.

I did my homework - now I understand what you meant before - and I see what you mean. I agree that it is a longstanding pattern and the issue is definitely more personal than typological - but there is still some kind of hangup where type is concerned. Also - all of us here know N and F both really struggle to process well where there is divisiveness and conflict, so we can safely assume that at some instinctive level, OA hates them too, and would prefer to eradicate their existence. It is something all NFs share.

The fascinating thing about this thread to me is that I can begin to understand OA's perspective from the post content (at least, to the extent that I have been able to keep up!) INFJs approach matters so differently from the native Ne-Fi approach that it can feel like refusal to interact. NFP Ne-Te processes are expansive, inclusive, categorical; NFJ Ni-Ti processes are distilling, honing, analytical. NFP Fi process is concerned with feeling within; NFJ Fe is concerned with feeling between. The NFJ approach can feel like a Fe fence around a Ni-Ti tower. It seemed that INFJs were unwilling to even consider that OA's feelings were legitimate: I assume now this is because they do not Ni-Ti agree with her premise of what INFJs are doing to create those feelings - in addition to all the unpleasantness of her tone, which would be repelling to anyone, of course. From that Ni-Ti perspective, assuming I grasp it well enough, I can understand why there could be no point in engaging. Nothing useful can come of exploring a premise that we know to be incorrect in its definition, particularly if the language it's couched in suggests further disharmony to come.

Regardless, from the perspective that INFJs are just refusing to consider that someone else might be right, I can begin to understand OA's tone. If she kept posting this idea, and INFJs being INFJs, continued responding to it in essentially similar ways, then it would simply reinforce her conclusion, escalating her negative feelings even more. The gist of her post, as I see it, is that INFJs see themselves as always right/good/correct. And that's really funny to me, because a longstanding joke between myself and my ENFJ best friend is that she's always right. We laugh about it now, but it took me years to understand that she didn't actually think that: her communications and behavior seemed to support it. Thankfully, she's going into psychology, so we've broken each other's psyches (and egos!) down many times over our years of friendship.

I took the time today to "answer" OA's list with trying to explain to myself why these feelings may have arisen, mostly based on my interactions with my ENFJ friend. It might be generally irrelevant, but I wanted to post it because I think something like this may have been what some of us were expecting - at least, the reason why OA came to have these feelings is the question I have been searching for an answer for throughout this whole thread.

1. General paranoia.

Ni is a forecasting mechanism in many ways; all NJs harbor some gift of "seeing into the future". Inescapably, some of that future is going to be harmful and painful - and it's human nature to protect against that. I understand this deeply as an enneagram 6 and share this with Ni users: the future is coming, and all we can do is try to identify the dangers before it's too late to protect ourselves. Others who see this and do not have that same danger-seeking tendency may think that we are unreasonably paranoid, but to us they seem blissfully ignorant.

2. Selfishness and denial; playing tyrant/victim.

All any of us can do is give in the way we understand best, since the only place we have to start is ourselves - our understanding of "good", our understanding of "help", everything that is the foundation of our existence in this world plays into that. None of us can ever escape our perspective. What I have experienced with my NFJ friend is that she will tend to guide me in certain directions that she also travels in not because she wants to benefit personally from it, but because she genuinely believes that her chosen direction is the singular best to go towards. It would be wrong/cruel to guide me in any other way than what she believes to be best.

What I have learned as an NFP is this often means waiting until I have a filled out picture of my idea that is different from hers before presenting it, and then demonstrating it to her and letting her see how it is good. Often, when she sees that final picture, she'll acknowledge that it is good, too - she might even get really excited about it, or change her own mind, as well. But she needs that filled out picture from me to do that - this seems consistent with the ideas of cake and spaghetti that have been presented in this thread. Up until that point, however, if she can't see how something is beneficial, she can't in good conscience support it. (The "spaghetti dinner", it turns out, is an unconventional spaghetti lasagna. You let an NFP be in charge of the kitchen, what do you expect?)

3. They will not take personal responsibility* for any problem in their life.

I think @SilkRoad explained this well at some point in the thread. Honestly, INFJs probably don't usually cause a lot of problems in their lives, at least not direct causation, not an action that directly precipitated the current circumstance. Ni doms look so far ahead all the time and Fe users are so aware of external effect that it's very unlikely for them to unwittingly create an obstacle.

That said, I have experienced a situation where my ENFJ friend refused to accept any blame for an issue that she played a part in, and the way I see it, she was just one more chain in a link of people that caused the problem - but to her, because she wasn't the final link, she wasn't part of the real problem. I say that her interaction played into the problem as a whole; she says that if the final person hadn't done what they did, it wouldn't be a problem. Both of us are right, I figure. I think her precise meaning of "responsibility" is different than mine - I think hers is more about direct precipitation of external effect. She expressed remorse for the process in its entirety.

4. General delusion*.

Ni is focused differently than Ne; it discards what it doesn't see as important. Ne drags along everything for the ride regardless of whether it is true or real or not. Which one is more delusional?

5. They are not simply sensitive to criticism; they refuse to acknowledge they have flaws at all.

What I have learned with my ENFJ friend is that she seems icy on the surface sometimes but is in fact very deeply sensitive to criticism, but will not display it outwardly - I don't think she really sees any point in engaging the external world in it. She carries a lot of anxiety, hurt, upset, and unease deep down inside... she spends a huge amount of time worrying about whether she's living up to her mother's expectations, for instance. NFPs present their flaws to the world for everyone to see; NFJs contain them. NFPs hide other things. The two types just put different things in different mental places.

Also, let me grab that Van der Hoop quote:



The thing with Ni is that their agenda is the "best" agenda (as seen through the Ni lens). So of course everything is going to be tailored to benefit that agenda; nothing else would make sense. Fi does the same thing. We create an "ideal" version of the world, too, and we too are led by egotism to apply those values to everyone. But just because we make demands doesn't mean we always live up to our ideals, either.

6. They make promises or state intentions they either cannot keep or don't intend to keep.

This item is the one I understand least and do not think I have ever experienced, short of my own understanding of "manipulation" that I brought up earlier, wherein something is framed in a specific way seemingly to encourage specific behavior. I do know that my ENFJ friend will do this purposefully at times when she is trying to create a good behavior in someone's life who is resistant to that behavior. I do that in some respects, too, though: I try to discourage my alcoholic friend from drinking, etc. That is all I can really say about this one.

7. INSANE double standards.

A misperception created by flipped functions and the Ni-Fe nature of strict behavioral control outside accompanied by containing personal worries and shortcomings inside.

Answered my own lingering questions - maybe inaccurately, but as best as I could. If anyone wants to correct my understanding, they're more that welcome. At least maybe something in there can help to open some doors to mutual understanding. It's worth a shot.

I just hope I don't offend anyone accidentally with anything! I apologize in advance!












This is the worst mental picture I have had all day.

Trust an ENFP to take the time to actually gather enough evidence and read through threads to do this. This is one of the things I truly admire about you people. I'm inherently lazy about that sort of thing!

Skylights, I think you have done an excellent job of addressing the points on that list. One of the problems I think we have is that it is very hard to see what our behaviour looks like to other types based on their functions and what those behaviours would then indicate to them. Therefore it's hard to explain the differences if we don't know quite where they lie or what is preventing them from being understood accurately. In every case here though, I would agree with the possibilities you have presented.

Regarding number 6, I've thought of one context where I do this. There is something in me that really hates making decisions until I have to, yet often people want an answer one way or the other. I've found that sometimes when people are planning to go out and do something, I may sound as if I am planning to go. It's not that I'm lying at the time. It's more that I feel like I haven't had time to consider all the factors involved. When the actual time comes, I'm more likely to weigh out a variety of factors (Would I be inconveniencing anyone or letting them down by not going? Do I want to socialize tonight? Does the majority of the group want to do something that I don't want to? - In which case I'm not likely to ask them to change their plans, but I might decide not to go if they don't really need me there, Am I just being my usual change avoidant self and should just go anyway? etc). One of my friends once called me on this, as he very much likes and needs to know ahead of time what to expect and it was throwing him off. I hadn't realized that it was affecting him or anyone else negatively (there was already a decent sized group of people that already knew each other well and often hung out together), or else that would have factored into my decision making.

As far as promises I can't keep - well, I know that I did a lot of that, especially when I first started teaching. I think it comes from a mix of truly wanting to accommodate and please other people, to the point of losing track of whether I can actually deliver or not. I'm not sure how it is for the people on the other side of the fence, but I guess I'd compare it to the way some people are about time. To me it is hard to imagine not having a sense of time flowing by and so being late seems like a selfish disregard for others. After having a couple of friends like this, I've realized this is an honest problem for them. They truly believe they can start out late, fit in a few extra things and try a new route on the way there and still make it in decent time! For me, I really do think at the time that I can do all of the things I'm promising, but lose track of what is actually reasonable and will realistically happen, accounting for life getting in the way sometimes too. I've learned that it works better to promise less and deliver more, but especially as a new teacher, that was a big problem for me.

I think there are probably other areas where I do this, but I can't think of examples at the moment that would illustrate them. Not sure if this is the kind of thing that OA is thinking of, or if it's more on a bigger scale that she is indicating.

Oh! The other reason I think that I may appear to do this is that I really, really hate disappointing other people. Therefore, if I suspect there's something that's going to be a problem down the road with us, I may have a gut feeling that something is awry, but until I can define and articulate it (which may take awhile), I'm not likely to verbalize it and I just continue on as normal. I think this probably feels misleading and results in deeper disappointment and blame (something I also hated even as a very small child, as the drive to please other people I care about is really hard-wired in for me) that would have happened if I had just presented it in a more batter-y form.

There's a little more here too, but I have to get it figured out in my own head better before I can verbalize it properly. Generally though, I think if pressured to make a decision sooner than I really should to feel good about it, I hear myself saying yes, even as my brain is saying, "Noooooooooooooooo!!!!". Then I have to work out what to do afterwards, based on how much upset it would cause if I changed the plan or on how I can make my own feelings come around or what other factors are involved that I haven't yet had time to consider. The default position is usually to accommodate by saying yes.

 

[sorenx7]

Ah, I see. ENFP to the core, I am horribly unobservant, and unsurprisingly I have not noted that! Props to you for being an observant ENFP.

I did my homework - now I understand what you meant before - and I see what you mean. I agree that it is a longstanding pattern and the issue is definitely more personal than typological - but there is still some kind of hangup where type is concerned. Also - all of us here know N and F both really struggle to process well where there is divisiveness and conflict, so we can safely assume that at some instinctive level, OA hates them too, and would prefer to eradicate their existence. It is something all NFs share.

The fascinating thing about this thread to me is that I can begin to understand OA's perspective from the post content (at least, to the extent that I have been able to keep up!) INFJs approach matters so differently from the native Ne-Fi approach that it can feel like refusal to interact. NFP Ne-Te processes are expansive, inclusive, categorical; NFJ Ni-Ti processes are distilling, honing, analytical. NFP Fi process is concerned with feeling within; NFJ Fe is concerned with feeling between. The NFJ approach can feel like a Fe fence around a Ni-Ti tower. It seemed that INFJs were unwilling to even consider that OA's feelings were legitimate: I assume now this is because they do not Ni-Ti agree with her premise of what INFJs are doing to create those feelings - in addition to all the unpleasantness of her tone, which would be repelling to anyone, of course. From that Ni-Ti perspective, assuming I grasp it well enough, I can understand why there could be no point in engaging. Nothing useful can come of exploring a premise that we know to be incorrect in its definition, particularly if the language it's couched in suggests further disharmony to come.

Regardless, from the perspective that INFJs are just refusing to consider that someone else might be right, I can begin to understand OA's tone. If she kept posting this idea, and INFJs being INFJs, continued responding to it in essentially similar ways, then it would simply reinforce her conclusion, escalating her negative feelings even more. The gist of her post, as I see it, is that INFJs see themselves as always right/good/correct. And that's really funny to me, because a longstanding joke between myself and my ENFJ best friend is that she's always right. We laugh about it now, but it took me years to understand that she didn't actually think that: her communications and behavior seemed to support it. Thankfully, she's going into psychology, so we've broken each other's psyches (and egos!) down many times over our years of friendship.

I took the time today to "answer" OA's list with trying to explain to myself why these feelings may have arisen, mostly based on my interactions with my ENFJ friend. It might be generally irrelevant, but I wanted to post it because I think something like this may have been what some of us were expecting - at least, the reason why OA came to have these feelings is the question I have been searching for an answer for throughout this whole thread.

1. General paranoia.

Ni is a forecasting mechanism in many ways; all NJs harbor some gift of "seeing into the future". Inescapably, some of that future is going to be harmful and painful - and it's human nature to protect against that. I understand this deeply as an enneagram 6 and share this with Ni users: the future is coming, and all we can do is try to identify the dangers before it's too late to protect ourselves. Others who see this and do not have that same danger-seeking tendency may think that we are unreasonably paranoid, but to us they seem blissfully ignorant.

2. Selfishness and denial; playing tyrant/victim.

All any of us can do is give in the way we understand best, since the only place we have to start is ourselves - our understanding of "good", our understanding of "help", everything that is the foundation of our existence in this world plays into that. None of us can ever escape our perspective. What I have experienced with my NFJ friend is that she will tend to guide me in certain directions that she also travels in not because she wants to benefit personally from it, but because she genuinely believes that her chosen direction is the singular best to go towards. It would be wrong/cruel to guide me in any other way than what she believes to be best.

What I have learned as an NFP is this often means waiting until I have a filled out picture of my idea that is different from hers before presenting it, and then demonstrating it to her and letting her see how it is good. Often, when she sees that final picture, she'll acknowledge that it is good, too - she might even get really excited about it, or change her own mind, as well. But she needs that filled out picture from me to do that - this seems consistent with the ideas of cake and spaghetti that have been presented in this thread. Up until that point, however, if she can't see how something is beneficial, she can't in good conscience support it. (The "spaghetti dinner", it turns out, is an unconventional spaghetti lasagna. You let an NFP be in charge of the kitchen, what do you expect?)

3. They will not take personal responsibility* for any problem in their life.

I think @SilkRoad explained this well at some point in the thread. Honestly, INFJs probably don't usually cause a lot of problems in their lives, at least not direct causation, not an action that directly precipitated the current circumstance. Ni doms look so far ahead all the time and Fe users are so aware of external effect that it's very unlikely for them to unwittingly create an obstacle.

That said, I have experienced a situation where my ENFJ friend refused to accept any blame for an issue that she played a part in, and the way I see it, she was just one more chain in a link of people that caused the problem - but to her, because she wasn't the final link, she wasn't part of the real problem. I say that her interaction played into the problem as a whole; she says that if the final person hadn't done what they did, it wouldn't be a problem. Both of us are right, I figure. I think her precise meaning of "responsibility" is different than mine - I think hers is more about direct precipitation of external effect. She expressed remorse for the process in its entirety.

4. General delusion*.

Ni is focused differently than Ne; it discards what it doesn't see as important. Ne drags along everything for the ride regardless of whether it is true or real or not. Which one is more delusional?

5. They are not simply sensitive to criticism; they refuse to acknowledge they have flaws at all.

What I have learned with my ENFJ friend is that she seems icy on the surface sometimes but is in fact very deeply sensitive to criticism, but will not display it outwardly - I don't think she really sees any point in engaging the external world in it. She carries a lot of anxiety, hurt, upset, and unease deep down inside... she spends a huge amount of time worrying about whether she's living up to her mother's expectations, for instance. NFPs present their flaws to the world for everyone to see; NFJs contain them. NFPs hide other things. The two types just put different things in different mental places.

Also, let me grab that Van der Hoop quote:



The thing with Ni is that their agenda is the "best" agenda (as seen through the Ni lens). So of course everything is going to be tailored to benefit that agenda; nothing else would make sense. Fi does the same thing. We create an "ideal" version of the world, too, and we too are led by egotism to apply those values to everyone. But just because we make demands doesn't mean we always live up to our ideals, either.

6. They make promises or state intentions they either cannot keep or don't intend to keep.

This item is the one I understand least and do not think I have ever experienced, short of my own understanding of "manipulation" that I brought up earlier, wherein something is framed in a specific way seemingly to encourage specific behavior. I do know that my ENFJ friend will do this purposefully at times when she is trying to create a good behavior in someone's life who is resistant to that behavior. I do that in some respects, too, though: I try to discourage my alcoholic friend from drinking, etc. That is all I can really say about this one.

7. INSANE double standards.

A misperception created by flipped functions and the Ni-Fe nature of strict behavioral control outside accompanied by containing personal worries and shortcomings inside.

Answered my own lingering questions - maybe inaccurately, but as best as I could. If anyone wants to correct my understanding, they're more that welcome. At least maybe something in there can help to open some doors to mutual understanding. It's worth a shot.

I just hope I don't offend anyone accidentally with anything! I apologize in advance!












This is the worst mental picture I have had all day.

I appreciate your contribution. But like I've already mentioned to you, my best friend is also an ENFJ. Not just one of my best friends, but my BEST friend for the last ten years. I know her very well, obviously and she definitely knows me better than anyone else. Although I can see great similarities between ENFJs and INFJs because they obviously share NFJ, there are still tremendous differences. In other words, in describing points about INFJs, I'm not sure how far using examples from ENFJs can be carried. They are, after all, listed as two different types for a reason. And my real life experiences with them indicate that the differences may be greater in reality than in theory. So my reality is that the greatest friendship of my life has been with an ENFJ and INFJs I've met do seem to match OrangeAppled's description. I have a choice of believing my own reality or believing other people's interpretation of my reality. Needless to say, I'll take the former. However, I can't see that anything you've said would be offensive to anyone, whether they agree with you or not. I'm sure what I've said will offend some since I've said I agree with OrangeAppled. But that isn't done intentionally, either. What she was describing was her reality and it's my reality, too, as I've already indicated. I did enjoy reading what you wrote, however. But it's mostly because it made me think of my ENFJ friend. As for INFJs, I'm pretty sure they'll dislike me even more after this post. I wish people would realize this isn't so much about liking or disliking, though, but more about compatibility and incompatibility. I don't actually dislike any of the INFJs I know. One is an aunt I've obviously known all my life. Others are friends I've shared really important things with through the years. But is there a radical incompatibility involved? Unfortunately, yes, there is. To use one simple example to illustrate my point. I once had to go on a very long trip with someone. We didn't much like each other at all. But the trip was a great success because we were so compatible. Based on what I know about the INFJs I know IRL, if I had to go on another trip like that, I realize that it would probably make more sense to take it again with the person I didn't like but was compatible with than INFJs I like but I'm incompatible with. Because I'm talking about a trip that lasted months and involved foreign countries. It makes sense for the people involved to have minds which somewhat think the same whether they personally like each other or not. As for INFPs and INFJs, it's obvious there is a total difference in approach which will go on into infinity. At the risk of sounding hyperbolic, we're dealing with minds which seem to come from different universes.

 

[Society]

realising that I needn't be so up-tight about my mistakes or how I appear to others.

bingo!

the question is, what's behind the process?

the problematic account of destructive behaviors suggested throughout this thread and others, and in some cases here - displayed - is that some ways for at least a few INFJs to do this is through external judging and villainizing - "if the other person believes something bad about me or anything i've done, they are delusional/toxic/etc". in other words, their path of not taking how others perceive them so seriously is by devaluing others, maintaining and protecting the ego through ad hominems in what i can only imagine to demand a constant shushing of their own Ti as it shout "fallacy fallacy will robinson", basically digging their heels into a spiral of cognitive dissonance.

somehow, you seem to have found an altogether different non destructive psychological path of reaching the same tool - to not be so uptight about your mistakes how others judge you, without devaluing everyone around you for judging you. i want to know what it is.

 

[Cellmold]

bingo!

the question is, what's behind the process?

the problematic account of destructive behaviors suggested throughout this thread and others, and in some cases here - displayed - is that some ways for at least a few INFJs to do this is through external judging and villainizing - "if the other person believes something bad about me or anything i've done, they are delusional/toxic/etc". in other words, their path of not taking how others perceive them so seriously is by devaluing others, maintaining and protecting the ego through ad hominems in what i can only imagine to demand a constant shushing of their own Ti as it shout "fallacy fallacy will robinson", basically digging their heels into a spiral of cognitive dissonance.

somehow, you seem to have found an altogether different non destructive psychological path of reaching the same tool - to not be so uptight about your mistakes how others judge you, without devaluing everyone around you for judging you. i want to know what it is.

Ah you've asked the key question here.

It's something I don't quite know how to put my finger on at the moment. It involves a willing enough nature to engage with it in the first place. Which for Ni doms of both the T and F variety can be hard, since both can be convinced of the certainty of what they are perceiving.

 

[Eilonwy]

The following question is relevant to this thread topic, even though it might not seem to be. Has anyone in this thread seen the movie "Fireproof"?

 

[Tiltyred]

I just cued it up on Netflix, so I'll have seen it in a bit...

 

[Society]

Ah you've asked the key question here.

It's something I don't quite know how to put my finger on at the moment. It involves a willing enough nature to engage with it in the first place. Which for Ni doms of both the T and F variety can be hard, since both can be convinced of the certainty of what they are perceiving.

ok, let's leave that question to cook for awhile.


here's something else that interests me - how do you relate - if at all, to this:

Look -- lack of self-esteem kind of comes with the territory, unless you've really been privileged in your upbringing. Our process looks weird to outsiders and we don't fit in. It takes a lot to overcome the constant reminders in dealing with the world that you're a square peg in a round hole.

and if so, how have you dealt with it?

 

[Tiltyred]

Ok, Eilonwy, credits are rolling, I've watched it.

 

[Glycerine]

Ah, I see. ENFP to the core, I am horribly unobservant, and unsurprisingly I have not noted that! Props to you for being an observant ENFP.

I did my homework - now I understand what you meant before - and I see what you mean. I agree that it is a longstanding pattern and the issue is definitely more personal than typological - but there is still some kind of hangup where type is concerned. Also - all of us here know N and F both really struggle to process well where there is divisiveness and conflict, so we can safely assume that at some instinctive level, OA hates them too, and would prefer to eradicate their existence. It is something all NFs share.

The fascinating thing about this thread to me is that I can begin to understand OA's perspective from the post content (at least, to the extent that I have been able to keep up!) INFJs approach matters so differently from the native Ne-Fi approach that it can feel like refusal to interact. NFP Ne-Te processes are expansive, inclusive, categorical; NFJ Ni-Ti processes are distilling, honing, analytical. NFP Fi process is concerned with feeling within; NFJ Fe is concerned with feeling between. The NFJ approach can feel like a Fe fence around a Ni-Ti tower. It seemed that INFJs were unwilling to even consider that OA's feelings were legitimate: I assume now this is because they do not Ni-Ti agree with her premise of what INFJs are doing to create those feelings - in addition to all the unpleasantness of her tone, which would be repelling to anyone, of course. From that Ni-Ti perspective, assuming I grasp it well enough, I can understand why there could be no point in engaging. Nothing useful can come of exploring a premise that we know to be incorrect in its definition, particularly if the language it's couched in suggests further disharmony to come.

Regardless, from the perspective that INFJs are just refusing to consider that someone else might be right, I can begin to understand OA's tone. If she kept posting this idea, and INFJs being INFJs, continued responding to it in essentially similar ways, then it would simply reinforce her conclusion, escalating her negative feelings even more. The gist of her post, as I see it, is that INFJs see themselves as always right/good/correct. And that's really funny to me, because a longstanding joke between myself and my ENFJ best friend is that she's always right. We laugh about it now, but it took me years to understand that she didn't actually think that: her communications and behavior seemed to support it. Thankfully, she's going into psychology, so we've broken each other's psyches (and egos!) down many times over our years of friendship.

I took the time today to "answer" OA's list with trying to explain to myself why these feelings may have arisen, mostly based on my interactions with my ENFJ friend. It might be generally irrelevant, but I wanted to post it because I think something like this may have been what some of us were expecting - at least, the reason why OA came to have these feelings is the question I have been searching for an answer for throughout this whole thread.

1. General paranoia.

Ni is a forecasting mechanism in many ways; all NJs harbor some gift of "seeing into the future". Inescapably, some of that future is going to be harmful and painful - and it's human nature to protect against that. I understand this deeply as an enneagram 6 and share this with Ni users: the future is coming, and all we can do is try to identify the dangers before it's too late to protect ourselves. Others who see this and do not have that same danger-seeking tendency may think that we are unreasonably paranoid, but to us they seem blissfully ignorant.

2. Selfishness and denial; playing tyrant/victim.

All any of us can do is give in the way we understand best, since the only place we have to start is ourselves - our understanding of "good", our understanding of "help", everything that is the foundation of our existence in this world plays into that. None of us can ever escape our perspective. What I have experienced with my NFJ friend is that she will tend to guide me in certain directions that she also travels in not because she wants to benefit personally from it, but because she genuinely believes that her chosen direction is the singular best to go towards. It would be wrong/cruel to guide me in any other way than what she believes to be best.

What I have learned as an NFP is this often means waiting until I have a filled out picture of my idea that is different from hers before presenting it, and then demonstrating it to her and letting her see how it is good. Often, when she sees that final picture, she'll acknowledge that it is good, too - she might even get really excited about it, or change her own mind, as well. But she needs that filled out picture from me to do that - this seems consistent with the ideas of cake and spaghetti that have been presented in this thread. Up until that point, however, if she can't see how something is beneficial, she can't in good conscience support it. (The "spaghetti dinner", it turns out, is an unconventional spaghetti lasagna. You let an NFP be in charge of the kitchen, what do you expect?)

3. They will not take personal responsibility* for any problem in their life.

I think @SilkRoad explained this well at some point in the thread. Honestly, INFJs probably don't usually cause a lot of problems in their lives, at least not direct causation, not an action that directly precipitated the current circumstance. Ni doms look so far ahead all the time and Fe users are so aware of external effect that it's very unlikely for them to unwittingly create an obstacle.

That said, I have experienced a situation where my ENFJ friend refused to accept any blame for an issue that she played a part in, and the way I see it, she was just one more chain in a link of people that caused the problem - but to her, because she wasn't the final link, she wasn't part of the real problem. I say that her interaction played into the problem as a whole; she says that if the final person hadn't done what they did, it wouldn't be a problem. Both of us are right, I figure. I think her precise meaning of "responsibility" is different than mine - I think hers is more about direct precipitation of external effect. She expressed remorse for the process in its entirety.

4. General delusion*.

Ni is focused differently than Ne; it discards what it doesn't see as important. Ne drags along everything for the ride regardless of whether it is true or real or not. Which one is more delusional?

5. They are not simply sensitive to criticism; they refuse to acknowledge they have flaws at all.

What I have learned with my ENFJ friend is that she seems icy on the surface sometimes but is in fact very deeply sensitive to criticism, but will not display it outwardly - I don't think she really sees any point in engaging the external world in it. She carries a lot of anxiety, hurt, upset, and unease deep down inside... she spends a huge amount of time worrying about whether she's living up to her mother's expectations, for instance. NFPs present their flaws to the world for everyone to see; NFJs contain them. NFPs hide other things. The two types just put different things in different mental places.

Also, let me grab that Van der Hoop quote:



The thing with Ni is that their agenda is the "best" agenda (as seen through the Ni lens). So of course everything is going to be tailored to benefit that agenda; nothing else would make sense. Fi does the same thing. We create an "ideal" version of the world, too, and we too are led by egotism to apply those values to everyone. But just because we make demands doesn't mean we always live up to our ideals, either.

6. They make promises or state intentions they either cannot keep or don't intend to keep.

This item is the one I understand least and do not think I have ever experienced, short of my own understanding of "manipulation" that I brought up earlier, wherein something is framed in a specific way seemingly to encourage specific behavior. I do know that my ENFJ friend will do this purposefully at times when she is trying to create a good behavior in someone's life who is resistant to that behavior. I do that in some respects, too, though: I try to discourage my alcoholic friend from drinking, etc. That is all I can really say about this one.

7. INSANE double standards.

A misperception created by flipped functions and the Ni-Fe nature of strict behavioral control outside accompanied by containing personal worries and shortcomings inside.

Answered my own lingering questions - maybe inaccurately, but as best as I could. If anyone wants to correct my understanding, they're more that welcome. At least maybe something in there can help to open some doors to mutual understanding. It's worth a shot.

I just hope I don't offend anyone accidentally with anything! I apologize in advance!

+10000. That was awesome.
Since Skylights was so gracious to provide use with the insights on the lists and most people seem convinced that I am INFJ anyways, I wanted to share my take on it. Bear with me, I am trying to put a more negative spin it....

General paranoia & Delusional: I see Ni as perspective bending and seeing different angles of an object (idea, what have you) so NJs have the ability to distort perception to a certain goal. NJs can generally be good at seeing the nuances of things picking the aspect or course of action that seems the most viable. However once they get stuck in tunnel vision, there is a higher chance of being delusional and paranoid. NFJ begin to overate what they think is best for everyone while NTJs become overconfident that they know the "objective truth".

Selfishness and denial: Playing tyrant/Victim & Not Taking Responsibility: I view this as a generalized human flaw. When there is a lot of pride connected to the ego, people have a tendency to play the victim and get on the defensive of anything that opposes it. They are just as likely as any other type to engage in this behavior especially when pride gets in the way.

Not Sensitive to Criticism: I might get on the defensive and may argue the point but I will tend to process in the background. I have to find evidence to support it and see it fits into my general self conception (how it compares with what others say about me, how I view myself, how relevant the person is to me/our history, what the person's motives are). If it does fit, I will tend to acknowledge later on but if it doesn't fit, it will be in the back of my mind (it remains valid but I am not going to accept it until I can make sense of it). On the other hand, if the person isn't willing to put in that much effort, they might just dismiss it completely.

Not Keeplng Promises: In general, people can be flaky... it might be a difference in values. However, I have seen FJs do this because they overextended themselves, forgot/misunderstood, wanted to appear a certain way, or didn't want to hurt feelings.

Insane double standards: When we get into tunnel vision and stopping checking in with Fe and Se, there can be a disparity it how we are perceiving things vs. objective reality. Also, with the tunnel vision, Ni can be the master of perspective bending and so we can get really warped views of reality. However, this can also be because people can get so attached to their own worldview and ego that they aren't really seeing reality for what it is.

One of my rare walls of text!

^This. More often than not, my "general paranoia" is prophetic. I have come off more than once as Chicken Little, issuing warnings to friends for example that they are going down the wrong road, they laughed me off, and ended up in deep trouble exactly as I saw it coming. I'm wrong every once in awhile and very glad to be wrong, but for the most part, if I'm getting strong No signals with regard to something a friend is doing, it's for a good reason; ditto if I get them for myself. Where we go wrong with this is making up stories to explain the strong No signals. Something may indeed be wrong, the road may well be the wrong road, but since we're always called upon to explain our reasoning, or because we want to verbalize the signals to ourselves, we make up stories to explain the signals, and end up sounding batty. It's very stressful to watch a friend headed pellmell down a wrong road, try to suggest turning back or changing direction, seeing the friend laugh you off and proceed, and then having to listen and console after the damage is done. Over time, I've become more philosophical about it. Maybe their road necessarily includes some pain. Maybe their soul needs this lesson and it would have been wrong to try to prevent it -- the lesson would have occurred no matter whether they'd chosen this avenue to let it in or some other in the future. It's not my business to guide, but only to be there, maybe as witness and support. Or who the hell knows.

I am having one of those moments now and I somehow got roped in the middle of it. I can usually pick on things pretty quickly but I tend to rationalize it away. My problem has always been never trusting it because I am waiting for evidence to unfold in order to confirm it (trying to keep an open mind) and wanting really bad to believe in the best in people but it has continually screwed me over so I am trusting my gut this time.

 

[Tiltyred]

My problem has always been never trusting it because I am waiting for evidence to unfold in order to confirm it (trying to keep an open mind) and wanting really bad to believe in the best in people but it has continually screwed me over so I am trusting my gut this time.

That's good to hear. We're constantly prodded to deconstruct it and prove it to other people and question it and otherwise flood it with what amounts to white noise that drowns out the signals. The more you trust it and see it work, the faster, better, and easier you can use it, and the better your life becomes, the more you become strong and confident and able.

 

[Eilonwy]

Ok, Eilonwy, credits are rolling, I've watched it.

I was hoping for more perspectives on it, but I'll ask my questions anyway.

Taking the film in it's broadest sense, I see it as positing a way to solve a problem in communication between two people. Would that be your take on it also, or do you see it differently?

What do you think about the solution? Would it really work? Would it work across a broad spectrum of people or only in certain cases? Is it a solution that would work for you in a similar situation? If it wouldn't work for you, why not?

 

[Tiltyred]

I'm happy to wait for other perspectives before I share mine. No hurry no worry.

 

[PeaceBaby]

This might sound more like venting, but I can't think of a better way to ask, so I apologize about that.

Answering skylights post on the "list" makes it seem INFJ's are rewarding skylights for "good" behaviour, and are not answering OA's for "bad" behaviour.

Or, it looks like you're answering because you like skylights, but not OA. The main points of the list are the same. So what makes them more answerable now?

Is this is a way to try to motivate OA to conform to the way you would prefer she act, or prefer she talk? Is that what I'm seeing? Or can INFJ's explain it to me the way it's intended?

 

[Fidelia]

This is interesting to me. Mane also VMed, asking why the different response, as well. To me it seems obvious, but perhaps this is one of the areas where both groups are seeing very different things because of what they place the most priority on. The reason the response is different is due to two entirely different approaches. I feel like we've been trying to tell you that all along, but perhaps somehow the message is not clear in the way we tend to word things. Depending on the approach, it will totally change our ability to know what you are looking for and try to deliver it.

In skylight's case, she is coming from a friendly position that recognizes differences, and is trying to account for them to the best of her ability. She is open to correction, but is telling us how it looks like from her side of the fence and inviting more insight. In OA's, she included several nasty digs basically implying that if we didn't agree 100%, we were just showing more of the traits on the list, instead of considering that our behaviour came out of the fact that us and her are seeing totally different things in our internal landscapes and so our behaviour may be explainable in light of what we see around us and not explainable in light of what you see. She has established some credibility over time, but it's not that I "like" her better and I'm trying to reward her and teach OA a lesson. It's just more clear to me what her motivation is.

In OA's case, nothing she is saying indicates she actually wants different perspective on the conclusions she has made. Any motivation that I could assign doesn't exactly fit. For example: if she is warning others about getting involved with INFJs, she isn't doing it directly. If she is telling us how we have hurt others so we can avoid it, it doesn't come off as friendly advice. If she is trying to understand the behaviour better, she is approaching it in a manner that gives the opposite message. If she is venting, why bother quoting outside sources? I don't know what she wants from us, so I don't trust the message she says she is giving. It feels like we're damned if we do and damned if we don't and I want no part of that.

On a personal level, I have no beef with OA. She's been most helpful in some discussions about skincare. It's just when she gets to this topic that I find her method of communication unhelpful and abrasive. I realize that you want to mediate and make peace between people, PB, but in this case, I think what you are doing is actually widening the differences. Something truly does smell rotten in Denmark (just as surely as Fi can tell when a person feels differently than the vibe they are emitting). It feels - I'm not saying you are, but it feels like you are - denying something that is actually a thing and not just a personal preference in approach. I appreciate the fact that you want to help, but I don't know if that is the way that is going to do it for me, at least.

 

[Fidelia]

I've been thinking over the sensitivity to criticism thing. I very much identify with Glycerine's comments on that point. Again, some of this comes down to delayed processing. Any new information that is incoming has to be processed for awhile, before you are going to see the result of it. It is very inconvenient to me that this is the case, but I know of no way to make that happen faster.

I will say that it has to come from a friendly place if it's not going to take me a long time to be able to accept criticism freely. I am very self-conscious and hard on myself by nature. Therefore, if it appears that someone is making fun of me while pointing out a shortcoming, it feels like being kicked when I'm down and it is hard to view the person as being objective. If they are coming out of a place of frustration, it is very embarrassing for me, but usually I can accept the possibility of it being true much easier. If they are pointing it out in anger, that sometimes takes longer to sort out as it could be motivated by their own issues, or it might be a legitimate thing that takes some time for me to see in myself and correct. For me, correction definitely needs to be private, as again internal embarrassment and shame totally take over when it is done publicly in a laughing sort of way (hence what Affirmative Anxiety was talking about learning to deal with it in that way better).

When I do receive criticism, you may not hear or see right away how I react to it, but you can be sure that it is not being ignored or is left unconsidered.

INFJs are very sensitive to how other people view them. Often people come away with wildly different views of me because initially I think I appear a lot more malleable than I am as they get to know me better. Part of this is a tendancy to let people in a bit at a time. Part is that I like to gathering all the information before I draw a lot of conclusions about people. Also, because I find criticism painful myself (it's like a deep shame if I realize people are right that I did not notice it first and embarrassment at all the stupid things I have done as a result), I am unlikely to offer criticism unless not doing so is going to threaten the relationship more, you are in my deepest inner circle (and not even then very often) or I am extremely frustrated. I might be more likely to point out that a particular action might lead to a bad end, but not disturb much that is centred around who the person really is.

I believe this is in part because I find it easier to accept help on things surrounding my outer world, but have difficulty inviting direction to my inner world. I'm not sure, but wonder if maybe Fi/Ne/Te people find the opposite (this is just a hypothesis). Direction to the inner world isn't such a big deal, but interference in the outer world feels constricting and intrusive? Don't know. The reason I wonder this is that I hear some of the things that Fi users have suggested they might say to a friend, and to me they sound absolutely brutal and vice-versa. Some of what I would consider no big deal would be rather cutting to them. Because of this disconnect, I wonder if perhaps we find the opposite things intrusive, hurtful, or affecting us at the root of our identity.

Edit: Several occasions stand out to me where I felt absolutely embarrassed and I'm sure the other party had no idea why. Here are a couple of examples:

- One summer after my first year university I got a bursary to study French for a summer in Quebec. I soon became good friends with a group of people. One night, they wanted to play cards. I hadn't grown up in a card-playing family, and by nature would prefer to watch first before taking part. However, I was needed to make the numbers work out so cautioned that I would need instructions etc etc. During the course of it, the guy that I was sort of dating, noticed that when they were dealing, I was picking up each card as it was dealt. Instead of telling me ahead of time about the etiquette of the game, or pointing it out quietly in a friendly way after I did it the first time, he made some joke about it to the group later on in the game. I was close to tears of embarrassment because I already felt apprehensive about playing and like I might let other people down and needed to know it was a friendly environment. It shouldn't have been a big deal, and I knew it shouldn't have been a big deal (which made me feel even more embarrassed), but it left a mark, even though I tried my best to hide the emotion I was feeling.

- When I lived up north, my ESTJ boyfriend made several comments over the course of a few days (usually in front of other people) about my car care/driving. In one case, I had driven out of my driveway which was very narrow and had a steep, but camouflaged by soft snow drop off on both sides. I got terribly stuck and had to have a tow truck pull me out. He was laughing about it in front of someone at school who tended to be very outspoken and critical, whom I didn't know well. It wasn't mean-spirited, but I was already embarrassed that I had gotten myself into the predicament and had had to involve other people to help me (to no avail). Then he made some comment about how my car always looked snowy all over the place (his was always impeccably brushed off, while I mostly made sure that the windows and headlights were clear - to me it was saying that I am a careless and lazy person, even though I know he didn't explicitly intend it that way). In both cases, I had a little talk with myself, explained that he didn't intend either comment maliciously and probably didn't even know that it was hurtful or embarrassing to me. Finally, when he made a third comment, the dam burst and I started to cry and blurted out, "If something bothers you, bring up one thing at a time!!!! I can't deal with three or four things at once! Besides, you don't even have to drive with me, so I don't know why it bothers you so much!". I was further embarrassed by losing control like that, as I don't typically show raw emotion in front of others and felt stupid that I couldn't just deal with it. He had no idea what I was even talking about at first, but when he did, he was devastated. He looked like I had slapped him across the face and called him a monster, so then I felt not only embarrassed, but also like a terrible person for doing that to him. I ended up apologizing, despite the fact that the implications made by his comments still weren't really resolved in my head (I don't verbalize things unless I want to send some kind of a message indirectly to allow the other person to save face, so I had taken it as that.). I understand now that it is better to say something right away, rather than save it up, but it is still difficult to know what is big enough to talk about, and what is just petty or because I'm tired or how to do it without it seeming like a big deal.

- My first year of university, I remember coming home to my four roommates sitting in the living room. They all had known each other before, were part of the same cultural group and were older than me, so I already felt a bit on the edge of things. As I came in, they laughed and said, "We always know when you are here because we hear your shoes clattering down the stairs". I took the comment as having a whole lot of subtext, which it didn't. It was only after living there for a year that I finally realized that their culture was such that they said things very directly and there was nothing in back of it. If I made the same comment, it would either mean that I was frustrated with them for making noise and that it had been a problem for awhile. Because it was a comment made in front of others, I also assumed that they all felt the same way and after a few incidents like that, I just avoided being at home more and more.

In all of these cases, it was not that I was not open to criticism. It just meant that

1) SUBTEXT vs FACE VALUE - I think my functions result in me communicating with subtext and so I often misread those who don't communicate that way as feeling much more strongly than they actually do. I also tended to not communicate anything negative unless it was really a problem. Therefore, I assumed that people again felt more strongly than they really did.

2) SPECIFIC INCIDENT vs GENERALIZED TREND - I usually took an instance of criticism as having a deeper underlying categorization about me, rather than referring to one specific incident. I think perhaps this has to do with Ni looking for patterns and classifications. I wonder if this is one of the big Ne/Ni disconnects?

3) INTERNAL PROCESSING with time delay vs EXTERNAL PROCESSING in the moment - Delayed processing makes it difficult to check things in the moment and doing it later seems to make it into a Big Deal and then it's hard to know what is worth dealing with and what isn't, but over time those little things all add up. I'm working on what to do about this still. I admire those that can just make a joke of it or ask a question right at the time, rather than letting the significance of an off-handed comment grow into something bigger that perhaps is quite inaccurate.

 

[skylights]

[MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION], [MENTION=5723]Tiltyred[/MENTION], [MENTION=5109]Glycerine[/MENTION], you guys are wonderful!! Thank you for contributing more information to those points!!

I hope this is at least a little bit useful to you all, too, because that kind of information sharing - exploration, I guess - is absolutely invaluable to me. With it, I can begin to construct a "web" of reasoning, so that when I observe an INFJ doing something that seems unpleasant to me, I can apply that understanding and present myself with a number of answers as to why they are doing so, and the answer is no longer relegated to "they are mean/bad/etc", which is unfortunately the only thing I am left with when Fi is hurt and I have no Ne branches to lean on. Fi is a responsive mechanism, so the only way one can proceed with it is to define what we are responding to, and I think sadly we end up taking that last resort of mean/bad/harmful because we simply can't react without assigning some intent to the action - otherwise the lack of ability to react effectively stalemates us and leaves us floundering in the realm of woogly emotions, wondering how to feel, being swamped by misunderstanding and confusion and bewilderment. Even being angry is preferable to that, because at least it allows us to reclaim our sense of self.
[MENTION=5109]Glycerine[/MENTION], your explanation of "perspective bending" with Ni is fascinating. Would you mind giving an example of how you can distort perception to a goal? Is it like suddenly when your goals change, different "areas" light up on your information radar?
[MENTION=5723]Tiltyred[/MENTION], what you explained about being asked to deconstruct Ni sounds really frustrating when I think about the way I feel when people ask me to deconstruct Fi. It's looped, complex, foggy, fuzzy, intricate, non-symmetrical, ever-changing, subconscious, deeply intrinsic. How difficult it is to pull a line of reasoning out of that, much less one that other people will readily understand and appreciate. Fi takes time to process, too. I think that one method for NFPs to better understand NFJs would be to consider your Perceiving process the way we handle our Feeling process. It is something we have to treat gently, patiently, and trust regardless of what the outside world is telling us.

Also, your description of Boobfest is (1) helpful, (2) funny, and (3) slightly disconcerting because I have always had a very "romantic" impression of Renfests and I have been wanting to attend one. I definitely sympathize with not wanting to go displaying your boobies around your boss. Ugh!
[MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION], your explanation of feeling pressed to decide up front is awesome. I think that's really interesting to hear from a J because generally it's Ps who feel like the ones who are undecided until the last minute, but I have to remember that you guys are Perceiving dominant too and of course you do the same game of waiting for more information that we do, hating to act on less information when more is available. Your comparison to timeflow is awesome, too. Yes, that is exactly how it feels. It just seems like you're going to be able to do all that in that little space, but then life gets in the way. My mom taught me the rule of taking however long you think you'll need and doubling it: godsend to a P. Over time I've also learned to just trust Ni cakes along the way, bizarre and out of nowhere though they arise!

I wish people would realize this isn't so much about liking or disliking, though, but more about compatibility and incompatibility. I don't actually dislike any of the INFJs I know.

I understand this. In college, I joined a sorority, and one of the girls in my pledge class (group of girls entering at the same time) was incredibly personally frustrating to me. I wanted to like all of the girls, all of my future sisters. I tried to like her. I never did. I learned a lifelong lesson that semester, that sometimes it's just better for people to appreciate each other from afar. I wish her the best in her life and I respect her gifts, and I hope someday I will be mature enough to learn how to get along with people like her. Until then, I think it's better for us to live out our lives in separate realms.

That said, there are many things beyond MBTI, and even personality, that factor into compatibility. Even at 1% of the population, there are 69,737,384 INFJs out there, and out of those I suspect there is probably at least one that you would be compatible with.

Or, it looks like you're answering because you like skylights, but not OA. The main points of the list are the same. So what makes them more answerable now?

I suspect, PB, it has something to do with dismissing the premises of INFJs do this as necessarily accurate, and replacing that with "this is something INFJs are perceived by another type to be doing", in addition to less negative emotional noise surrounding the information. I doubt that it has anything to do with me personally. I think this is another one of those places where it seems to us like NFJs are refusing to interact, so we assign an intention to that perceived behavior, but the reality of it is that it is simply a function of framing the information in a more understandable and approachable format for the NiFe process.

I wanted to comment on this even though you directed your question at INFJs because I am beginning to see a pattern where NFPs want to assign purpose to something and throw a possible interpretation out there, and NFJs retreat more and more as "inaccurate" (tentative) information is presented, which in NFP eyes makes that subject seem even more obscure and NFJs possibly harboring malintent, because why else would anyone decline to share information? So then the NFP feels upset, and naturally communicates that in an effort to establish a line of open, honest communication, but the NFJ feels that negativity and turns away even more. Yay NFP-NFJ death spiral!

So NFPs need to learn how to approach NFJs with outward gentleness and demonstrated goodwill, even if we are uncomfortable, and NFJs need to learn how to recognize NFP information probing for the effort to understand and reconcile that it is, not an attempt to pigeonhole or accuse.

I think.

I'm curious to hear more about the movie, @Eilowny. I'll see if I can Netflix it later too.

 

[Fidelia]

More on embarrassment:

I remember as a kid working on speech arts selections for the music festival, as well as Broadway singing numbers for it. It was almost like I was split off from myself watching what I was doing and commenting critically on it. It was a real struggle, even to make myself perform it as I planned to in front of myself. I certainly didn't want to do it in front of others until I could perfect it to the best of my ability so that they would see what I could do accurately and we could go from there. Even as a baby, I didn't talk until I could do it correctly! Anyway, as a result, I would put off doing it (I was even embarrassed reading to myself with expression in front of the mirror in a bedroom with the door shut at first!!!!!!). Then I wouldn't get to the point where I felt comfortable having others see it. There were a few occasions when I only decided on actions to do for Broadway night half an hour before it had to be done! It wasn't that I thought that I didn't need help. It wasn't that I wasn't open to criticism. It was just that the embarrassment and shame that came from me not seeing what I needed to do (even in front of myself) was so great that it was extremely hard to invite other people onto the committee to add to that voice! Perhaps that is why I need to feel that criticism is coming from a constructive and friendly place. I already freak myself out enough! I think it has to be personality related, as I came from a very supportive family and had no reason to fear being made fun of.

Of course this is me at 12 or 13, but I think maybe it highlights just how hard it is to put yourself out there like that. As time went on, the noise of my internal voice quieted itself and I found it easier to invite outside critique, but I think I still probably am more sensitive to criticism because of the deeper implications about myself that I draw from it, than many people are.

 

[Starry]

4. General delusion*.

Ni is focused differently than Ne; it discards what it doesn't see as important. Ne drags along everything for the ride regardless of whether it is true or real or not. Which one is more delusional?

I sent this clip from the movie Land of the Lost to [MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION] a while back. At the time I couldn't for the life of me figure out why I related to it so well. But this talk of dressing rooms...and Ne bringing everything to the party cinched it for me. This clip illustrates so well how Ne gets in the way of good judgment. Okay, okay...I do not imagine to this extent for INFPs or ENFPs with a more fortunate enneagram placement...but yah...I just needed to share that I now understand what it is about this clip that I identify with haha.

 

[Glycerine]

@skylights: Here is a generic example.
My primary objective can be to be supportive and understanding of loved ones. I really want them to be happy and to be there for them. so I am able to bend my perspective to mirror their perspective. However, as I gather more information, if bells go off, I step back and look at the information through the objective of making sense of it for the long-term at the cost of the short-term. It's like "wait a minute...something is really off about the situation." and I try to reconcile that.

Because of the ability of perspective bending, Ni users tend to see cause and effect relationships in a course of action quite readily. It's like focusing on all the the potential nuances and possibilities of a few aspects of an object while Ne is expansive and looks at the relationships between many different objects. For example, I honestly can't stand outlines and brainstorming for writing something because I find them restrictive and white noise... it's like, "how the hell am I supposed know the structure and content of the paper until I write it." If I just have plenty of quiet time and concentration, I will typically be able to come up with a fairly structured and cohesive paper off the top of my head.

On the flipside, the perspective bending aspect can negatively be used to manipulate others to the end goal because if one is skilled enough, Ni can easily frame information to meet an objective. Think of Gustavo Fring in Breaking Bad.

On a light-hearted note, the perspective bending is the reason why we tend to find irony quite amusing (when I point it out to people, people think I am criticizing or being uber serious). haha

I hope that made some sense and not me just rambling.

 

[Society]

I hope this is at least a little bit useful to you all, too, because that kind of information sharing - exploration, I guess - is absolutely invaluable to me.

same here, potentially critical.

this is brilliant, beautiful, i still don't entirely grasp how you've managed this or why its happening, and i really really want too, but this this turn of events seems fantastic to me, in both meanings of the word.