Huh. Well, this is going to be as fun as drilling a 10-gauge titanium screw through my own hand, because the minutiae behind systems are boring and inconsequential as shit. But I'll play for a few posts.
The nature of the inferior is hardly minutiae. It's at the heart of most of the problems of each "type". If you think the notion of "type" has any validity at all, you must address the consequences of unbalanced development that are implied within it. The inferior function is the means to do so. It's hard to imagine anything of greater consequence in typology...
In fact, I have wondered if type emerges as a result of the inferior deficit - I.e. this is the seed around which the personality crystallises. So that the dominant function emerges as a defence against the pre-existence of the inferior-ity (rather than the inferior being a consequence of one function's 'natural' dominance).
For those with inferior Fe and Te, this needs to be reconciled with the notion that Fe and Te are rational functions. How?
It is reconciled by the i.
Jung (and followers) use "rational" to imply "subject to conscious control" and operating according to a predictable logic. It follows that whatever is not under conscious control / acting in harmony with conscious goals is not rational.
(He considered Sensing and Intuition to be "irrational" functions).
In their manifestation.
Quotes taken from Naomi Quenk's "Was That Really Me? How Everyday Stress Brings Out Our Hidden Personality" as available
here.
"Effective dominant Introverted Feeling types use a finely developed awareness of their inner values as a reliable guide for judging themselves and others. In the grip of inferior Introverted Feeling, Extraverted Thinking types become hypersensitive to their own and others’ emotions, often misinterpreting comments from others as personal criticism. In their dominant approach, they typically interpret objectively offered criticism by respected colleagues as an appropriate means to promote excellence. In the grip of their inferior Introverted Feeling, they may easily take offense and overreact to such criticism."
"Effective dominant Extraverted Feeling types readily share their values with others and are comfortable expressing their emotions. In the grip of inferior Extraverted Feeling, Introverted Thinking types may not differentiate between the expression of Feeling values and the expression of emotion. We may witness confusion between Feeling as a judging function and emotion as a state of physiological arousal. Jung (1976b) was explicit in his differentiation of the two: "What I mean by feeling in contrast to thinking is a judgment of value; agreeable or disagreeable, good or bad, and so on. Feeling so defined is not an emotion or affect, which is, as the words convey, an involuntary manifestation. Feeling as I mean it is a judgment without any of the obvious bodily reactions that characterize an emotion. Like thinking, it is a rational function." (p. 219)
Nevertheless, it appears true that dominant Thinking types, especially those who favor Introversion, do not have ready access to their emotions when they are operating in their habitual, dominant mode. Often they report not knowing or being able to describe a feeling at the time it is occurring. Some INTPs, however, report being able to infer the presence of a feeling by attending to intuitive cues; it may be recounted later in Thinking, analytical terms. They fear that once in the realm of intense emotion, they may become possessed by it and never be able to get out. That is why descending into “the depths†is rare and entered into against the will of the Introverted Thinking type.
Lack of familiarity with felt emotion is probably due to the fact that Thinking judgment typically excludes subjective values and affective data from the decision-making process. How the Thinking type or others feel about things may be judged irrelevant to the problem at hand and therefore as interfering with logical decision making. In contrast, Feeling types typically consider such data entirely relevant to their decisions. Their primary decision-making criteria include personal values, feelings, and consequences for important people and institutions. Due to limited experience, therefore, Thinking types' emotional expression lacks the differentiation and subtlety of feeling seen in well differentiated Feeling types. When positive feelings are involved, they may seem maudlin and sentimental. One INTP said she becomes “mushy, sentimental, very outwardly emotional, and unpredictably so.†A young ISTP said, “At times I feel really emotional when I'm by myself thinking about things that normally wouldn't bother me.†With greater intensity, inferior Feeling comes out as raw, extreme emotion."
The relationship between
unconscious and
irrational manifestation of "Feeling" is hopefully made explicit in these excerpts.
According to those who hold the notion that opposing functions (e.g Se/Ni, Te/Fi) work in conjunction with one another, this is outright false.
Then they are mistaken. The prompting of the inferior can push one towards growth, but this growth is best achieved by developing the auxiliary function, not the inferior directly. The inferior tends to interfere with one's effectiveness and compromises the dominant function.
Okay I glimpsed how an extraverted function could possibly have an ‘unconscious’ influence there for a moment, but now it’s gone.
As discussed above, inferior extraverted functions do not work like their 'superior' cousins. They are shadows of those processes. They are inverted. So while Fe might be experienced as a benign ability to adapt oneself to the needs and opinions and values and standards of others, iFe experiences / judges those same needs and opinions and values and standards as malign, even hostile. The unconscious component arises in the projection - the hostility is internally generated but is ascribed to the environment.
Se is experienced as a positive state of being in harmony with one's body and physical environment, as a state of unself-conscious "being" or flow. iSe is a negative experience of being cut-off from healthy expression of one's physicality, of being out-of-step, disconnected, self-conscious, clumsy, awkward, overwhelmed or out of control. The unconscious component again arises in the projection - the environment is not inherently dangerous or malignant - it is merely that the individual's ability to successfully navigate it is compromised/inferior.
The nit-picking can just be part of the smoke and mirrors if it's used to derail and control the conversation (and even control other people- though that latter is really more an ENP problem) rather than furthering the exchange of ideas.
How can you know what the motivation is? How can you know that you're not just shutting down and refusing to see something from another perspective? Isn't that a more forceful exercise of control?
"
Jung (1976a) incorporates the three qualities of inferior Extraverted Sensing (obsessive focus on external data, overindulgence in sensual pleasures, and an adversarial attitude toward the outer world) in the following comment:
What the introverted intuitive represses most of all is the sensation of the object, and this colours his whole unconscious. It gives rise to a compensatory extraverted sensation function of an archaic character. The unconscious personality can best be described as an extraverted sensation type of a rather low and primitive order. Instinctuality and intemperance are the hallmarks of this sensation, combined with an extraordinary dependence on sense-impressions. This compensates the rarefied air of the intuitive's conscious attitude. (p. 402)
Effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types are open to the widest variety of information from the environment— the more the better for them. Fully experiencing the outside world is their greatest pleasure. For an INTJ or INFJ in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, data from the outside world can seem overwhelming. Facts and details in the world demand the attention of the Introverted Intuitive type in the grip, so he or she obsesses about them. This may be experienced by both INTJs and INFJs as a state of intensity and drive. Their attempts to control the details in their environment are often expressed in such activities as feverishly cleaning the house, moving furniture, and organizing records and other materials. They may show an adamant concern about minute details and an unrelenting effort to control everything in their immediate vicinity.
An INFJ described her obsessiveness and withdrawal from her usual interests this way: “I stew about what's going on. I can't sit still and am restless. I am mentally fatigued and find myself compulsively putting things in order and trying to control everything around me.†An INTJ said that when he is in this state, he feels like a top spinning faster and faster. If he is working with tools and getting frustrated and angry, he has learned that it is best for him to stop or he will get hurt or break something. An INFJ described “obsessing about details.â€
Se-dominant Types
• Focus on external data
• Seeking sensual/aesthetic pleasure
• Delight in the outer world
Se-inferior Types
• Obsessive focus on external data
• Overindulgence in sensual pleasure
• Adversarial attitude toward the outer world
An INFJ said, “I alphabetize my compact discs; or suddenly it's time to do that thing I thought about doing two months ago. I drop everything and do it; or I fixate on smells and sounds.†“I organize or clean. I feel pressured and can't think clearly,†reported another INFJ. “I nitpick about things in the environment. I bombard people verbally and obsess out loud.â€
One INTJ said, “I get into verbal raving and am out of control. I regress emotionally and act childish. I feel anxious, exposed, childlike.†Another INTJ said, “If I bump my head on a cupboard, I get mad at the world for putting a cupboard there. Others think I'm cursing at myself— but it's really at the inconsideration or stupidity of the cupboard being there.†An INFJ observed, “I am angry, unreasonable, totally irrational, closed-minded, and impatient. I feel vulnerable and then become angry at others for it. I can't communicate with anyone. I am hard, callous, unfeeling, and I have no energy to be bothered with anyone else.â€
Heh. "
Stupid cupboard."
I believe you are the one who once said that an ENTP will hurt your feelings and then make you apologize to them (whoever said it, I agree and it’s a good example of ‘ENTP controlled by their own unconscious impulses’) .
You do have a good memory.
With ENTPs we are talking about inferior Si. If this is an unconscious reaction (as opposed to a deliberate ploy), I guess it's possible that they register your pain as something to defend
themselves against. This time we are dealing with not so much projection as introjection - which makes sense, because the inferior function in this case is introverted. Inferior functions essentially lead us to misattribute the cause of a problem or origin of an affect. This happens because we are conscious of the effect but unable to discern the origin - precisely because it originates in the part of our psyche we have disowned. Therefore, we wrongly determine that an internal conflict originates in a hostile environment, or conversely, we internalize a conflict that is rightly external. I have seen this effect of inferior Si in ENFPs too, who are, much of the time, oblivious to environmental cues that would bug / discomfort Sensors, but who can become withdrawn and even physically ill as a result of internalizing external conflict.
NTP nit-picking can be geared to serving some hedonistic core. And the less they're willing to see it, the more control it has over 'what should be nit-picked'.
It's kind of funny how you've just described something akin to inferior Se...
I'm not saying this is something all NTPs do- just like not all TJs are ruled by some dogmatic irrational core and all FJs aren't ruled by batshit projection. I'm just saying that's what the NTP pitfall looks like: solipsistic meandering
Well, I know what my own pitfalls are, and mistaking accuracy for something else is not one of them. Nor is this something I can say is true of other NTPs. They have an unparalled ability to cut through all the extraneous crap and get to the heart of a problem.
Nit-picking is definitely something I see more of in IxxJs than NTPs (and is supported by the observations/theory above). The NTP focus is usually on "the big picture". I find myself frequently frustrated with the IxxJ tendency to miss the forest for the trees - obsessively focussing on criticising irrelevant details rather than the meat of an argument. I could cite many examples just from this forum..
NTPs are sometimes guilty of hair-splitting - taking precision too far; pedantry. (You might say I am nit-picking about this distinction - but you'd be wrong. I'm hair-splitting.
)
Actually small distinctions and nuances in meaning can be important. If they were not we'd still be grunting in caves...
Nit-picking, on the other hand, doesn't contribute anything to a discussion other than a negative vibe.
Js have more access to stored information, particularly IxxJs, I think. And paying attention to the external world is taxing. I only need to touch a scalding hot pan handle once or twice to realize it's something to be avoided, or (on a lesser scale) watch a couple of Soderbergh movies to realize I don't get much out of Soderbergh movies. When I see indications that observations I've made should be modified- e.g. if I observe someone grabbing the handle of a hot pan without negative consequences- then I'll reconsider the precedent I've set for myself.
How can you have
more access to stored information, if you tend to close down an avenue of exploration after a negative experience?
But until I see some reason for reconsidering, repeating an action which will likely yield unfortunate consequences is just a senseless waste of energy and time. INJs don’t like being tied down to superfluous interaction with the external world and we avoid it where we can, just like NPs don’t like superfluous rules restricting their interaction with the external environment.
Drawing an analogy between the unequivocally harmful effects of touching a scalding pan and communicating with an NTP seems rather ... extreme. How very inferior Se of you though...
And it's only an ad hominem if the reason for dismissal does not directly apply to the reason something is dismissed.
Actually, no (and I'm not hair-spliiting). It's
ad hominem if you dismiss it because of who made it (or the reason you
think they made it) rather than objectively assessing the argument on its own merits.
In fact, in this case, (especially in light of your scalding pan analogy) it looks a lot like prejudice - you have had some negative interactions with NTPs, so you assume that NTPs argue in bad faith and feel that qualifies you to dismiss their arguments.
For me, I think the shutting down is because the emotion is there and I can’t really figure out what’s causing it, so I need to chalk it up to ‘this person is too different from me’ and leave it alone.
Chalking it up to difference is definitely better than chalking it up to bad faith.
I too feel there are fundamental differences between Ps and Js which make communication difficult. When I disagree with NPs, I always at least understand where they are coming from and why we disagree. I cant say the same for NJs. The outlook is oftentimes so alien to me...
I keep coming back to brain-hemisphere dominance, because it's such a neat way to explain why we struggle to see things from the other's point of view - and why we often conclude that the other point of view is "inferior".
Of course, I’m also e5, so the ‘shutting down’ may be related to that as well- but it really does seem to me like a common INFJ problem.
Hence, the "INFJ doorslam".
I'm e5 and I don't react in this way - when I don't understand something my response is to keep pushing for more and more information. I actually find ambiguity energising. Certainty is what shuts me down / turns me off.
) So I’ll just let it go.
