Yeah, I think Eddie Van Halen and Sting look enough like ISTJs where it's plausible. They both have that arrogance about them (the disconnect from the object tends to give us unfounded confidence in our perceptions), that deep seriousness. I've seen Eddie on stage and of course on video a few times, and every smile and posture looks totally forced. Not only do I think he could be an ISTJ, I think he's pretty unhealthy. He's highly technical, and amazingly skilled due to tons of practice. I don't think improvisation is a strength of his either as a result of his lack of development.
Eddie's at left, with the beard, for those who are not familiar. Not sure why Wolfgang's not there, maybe it was past his bedtime.
Sting also has that typical ISTJ seriousness and as I said, arrogance. He may be better off than Eddie, but I think he's pretty by-the-book in his performances. He's got a great voice though. Looking at this video though, I think this needs reflection. He's a bit too warm/charming... but then, I've been told the same, maybe he's a six also. He's got that... vigilance going on.
Thoughts?
I totally agree that Eddie, whatever type he is, is not very "healthy". I mean, in a literal sense...he's been in and out of rehab so many times...but he really does sound very controlling and paranoid. It's a shame because he is a great musician and I thought he was a cutie when he was younger (although at the time I was too young to realise it!).
Sting is VERY arrogant, I have to say. I adore the man but he annoys me sometimes.
Of course, various types could be arrogant but it comes across more J than P to me. I wonder if ISFJ is a possibility too. For some reason, both ISTJ and INFJ seem more likely for him than INTJ or ISFJ.
Not sure about e-types but I'd be interested to explore further!
I wouldn't rule out Eddie being an SP though. I don't know enough about his personality, really - I know more about Sting. But actually, the tight-knit family aspect of VH (first Eddie and Alex, and now Eddie/Alex/Wolfie) seems quite SJ, too. It sounds like the VH family members versus the other band members caused a lot of tension over the years.
Your whole post was awesome, and I wanted to add to this. Enlightenment is often described as finding peace and happiness with the present moment. If this is the case, then any enlightened person of any type can be content with the rules, or content with a desk job.
I wish I could work at a desk...
And - if you know what I mean - different people might have different definitions of "the rules" or even "a desk job". Especially "the rules." You could be counter-culture but follow "the rules" of your chosen group or way of life...in fact, I want to write a bit more about that.
I know -- which is why I brought up Ne as a creative force. And [MENTION=15167]Stephen[/MENTION] was right to bring up the possibility that Eddie Van Halen is a not-very-developed ISTJ, because that would mean that he was an ISTJ using Si as a tool to bring what he considers (Fi) to be top-quality music, to the world. Being an innovator without much aid from N!
I wasn't sure if you were going to reply that way -- "oh, nothing is certain, I thought that was a given" -- but there it is. The only way I can think to reply to that, is that you yourself said that you'd be shocked if there were ANY ISTJs who were well-known innovative musicians, because of the limiting tendencies of Si. However, I wouldn't be shocked, because, like I was saying, the MBTI is not a foolproof tool of distinguishing the innovators who take risks (anyone besides SJs) from the non-innovators who don't take risks (SJs). You say that you know ISTJs, but it's worth re-reading [MENTION=7063]SilkRoad[/MENTION] 's first few posts on this thread (including the one that Stephen quoted above), to make sure that you aren't suffering from some confirmation bias.
I think it's very possible for an SJ, "healthy" or not, to have natural talent as a musician and be extremely hard-working to develop it and become successful. Natural musical talent isn't limited to certain cognitive functions, that's for sure. Eddie is a very technical musician which seems Si-ish. Sometimes I feel his playing really has "heart", sometimes not so much. My brother, incidentally, is probably an ISTJ (though I type him IxTJ for the moment) and loves music, and he's always been more impressed by music which shows amazing technical ability than music which is highly "soulful" or whatever. (His favourite kind of music is "awesome", ie air-punching riffs - which I can totally get on board with too! - and also fast and technical.)
I wonder what type Jimmy Page is... I am a huge Led Zeppelin fan and to me Page is both incredibly technical, and incredibly soulful. Maybe ENTP or INTP? However, my brother and I always argued about whether Page or Eddie VH was the better musician.
Maybe INTJ. The way you've described Sting sounds almost just like Roger Waters and what happened with Pink Floyd, although I don't think Sting is quite as cranky and abrasive as Roger. I'm pretty sure Roger is an INTJ 4w5 sp/sx (either 4-5-8 or 4-8-5 tritype).
Yeah I could see Roger as INTJ and I know what you mean about the dissolution of Pink Floyd/the Police. But for some reason I don't see Sting that way... I'd be much likely to go for ISTJ or maybe INFJ. Perhaps he is a little too normal?
Roger never sounded "normal". Sting is a highly talented and hugely successful musician, but he's also got the charming family, the beautiful country houses where he likes to be the lord of the manor, the organic farm with his wife, etc... Which honestly sounds fairly SJ-ish to me, though maybe I'm subscribing to stereotypes too.
Just in terms of the question of what types can and can't be like, for whoever is still in this thread and interested: I was thinking again of an ESTJ I used to know. [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] and I discussed this guy before. I considered other types for him, but nothing else fits as well as ESTJ. So many traits both positive and negative: he's super-hard-working (to the point of "workaholic" and "keeping busy to avoid other stuff"), shows he cares about others by being helpful in practical ways, is intelligent but much more prone to being practical than intellectual, quite devoted to his friends but far more devoted to his family members, etc. (I think one of his biggest compliments is considering friends to be like family, and he tends to get involved with women who are family-approved... from what I heard I suspect his current girlfriend was picked out for him by his Italian mom and his sister.
) He can be almost ESTP-ish when having fun but he makes it clear that the "fun" episodes are so he can be refreshed and get back to his hard working life. On the negative side, he's distinctly controlling, prone to angry outbursts, seeks out relationships with weaker people he can control (or even manipulate), tends to belittle things he doesn't understand or feels threatened by, has low self-esteem which he tries to cover with a confident veneer, oblivious to others' emotions (and his own too, I think)...etc. I concluded he was quite healthy in some ways and quite unhealthy in others, I think being insecure due to some negative experiences and so on.
Anyway, the reason I bring up this almost-certainly-ESTJ is because when he was a young man, he was a punk/anarchist. (Not the kind of anarchist who blows things up, but the kind who rejects established government and society, nonetheless.) I've seen pictures of him with the most spectacular mohawk you ever saw. He took loads of drugs which he says was in large part a quest for the meaning of life. And popular wisdom would probably have it that an ESTJ couldn't be in this kind of counter-culture...but he was. Now he's a Christian though not of a very mainstream denomination, but he changed his beliefs and lifestyle because he felt it was the right thing and probably had been looking for something like it for a long time. See what I mean? You can be an ESTJ or some kind of SJ and still be counter-culture or controversial...but acting like an SJ within that, loyal to your group and its beliefs, hard-working, etc.
