Ni, Ne, and Creativity

[NPcomplete]

I use Ne (I think).

I come up with ideas by brainstorming, either with myself or other people. The process is akin to word association games. Each idea has the potential to lead to various other ideas and those ideas can then give other ideas..aah a bit like nuclear fission.

If the ideas have to be generated for important stuff, it's definitely in a structured way and I'll try to stay focused, the main objectives in mind and make charts. I don't like this method, but it's how I can at least attempt to finish what I started. On the other hand, if it's for fun, then I just let the madness consume me. You never know where the ideas might take you.

 

[Venom]

I posted this in another thread already, but it just seemed to be really relevant:

I would venture that a lot of Ni people don't feel particularly "creative" in the modern day way as much as we are "novel". Creativity today seems to invoke the idea of being able to spawn 5 new ideas from every one, constant tinkering and recombination. Ni is more about a singular shift in perspective; a novel way of perceiving a data set by turning it on it's head. I'd compare it to taking a piece of paper with a design on it: you can extrapolate the design and make it more creative or you can see that the original design is actually a picture of bil murry

 

[King sns]

I use Ne, I think. Sometimes I'm not thinking about much at all. But sometimes if I get on a topic or something happens that stimulated my mind, the thoughts come rushing at me all at once. It's just like a hurricane/ tornado of thoughts.(Edit: I guess that's why they call it brain"storming"- get it?) I don't know if I would always call them ideas. Sometimes they are questions, sometimes they are better understandings, sometimes reinforcements or connections, and sometimes they are brand new ideas- which can be very bad or very good (or silly or morbid or strange or stupid or any other number of adjectives- they are just ideas of any form.) Most of my thoughts are in images. It can be like those dreams stereotypical in cartoons and TV shows, a bunch of nonsensical images floating in spirals in my mind- (actually, that is a good example of an "image" that I was unable to turn into solid words so I just described the image instead.) And that's what happens when I'm processing things. and when it's moving really fast hopefully I can pick a thought line and slow it down and break it down a bit. (Not always) and in the worst versions of these sessions, I'm back to nothing or square one. In the best ones, I come up with good solid connections, understandings, and things that I've never thought about before.

 

[Thessaly]

First, state whether you use Ni or Ne (doesn't have to be dominant or auxiliary). How do you come up with ideas? What do you think of brainstorming?

Brainstorming is a bit more of an extroverted function so it's not really something I benefit terribly from.

I'm an Ne user. My ideas come from anywhere and everywhere. I am constantly in creative mode. I'm just constantly linking unrelated things/thoughts/words/concepts.

For example, I think of the architecture of clothing or the philosophy of art. I'll warp a concept in mind entirely so that it's an oxymoron when I'm done with it. I just in general really enjoy the perversion of every day language. My brain is an Eskimo. I'd like to kiss you with my skin. Tomorrow is yesterday. I'd like to tra la la la in the who ha hee with your ob lob og. Making all those abstract connections that don't formally exist and creating novel scenarios in your head.

The more experiences/knowledge you have in life, the more you can twist those elements into something new. It's really just linking different things in interesting ways. A foot walking around in a shoe isn't very novel, but eating a foot out of a shoe (like a bowl) is strange and unusual.

 

[Qlip]

I brainstorm like a mofo. I don't really understand how people see their Ne or Ni or whatever. I guess I'm too close to it. Mostly I just think of things that remind me of whatever things I'm thinking of. Then sometimes I apply principals that apply to that 'other thing' to the 'thing I am thinking of' to see if I can scare something novel up. Sometimes I pare ideas down to their bones, sometimes I tweak them to see when they are no longer themselves. I guess none of this makes much sense.

 

[21%]

I want to scream "YES!" to so many posts here I don't know where to start

 

[Little_Sticks]

well...umm...I guess I shouldn't expect that anyone sees it the way I do or understand why I understand the functions the way I do. But I think it's worth saying my peace about this:

Ni is introverted, so you aren't engaging reality when using it. It closes you off from reality in an attempt to narrow it down in some fashion with a metaphor or insight or symbolism of thought or whatever you want to call it. It's like a philosophical involution.

Ne is extroverted, so you are engaging reality when using it. But you aren't engaging it directly. It comes off as expressing new possibilities in an effort to see them manifest; but they are more like suggestions or possibilities removed from reality that could change it (hence not engaging reality directly).

That's closer to Jung.

MBTI seems to invert the way it looks at a type. For example, someone who uses Ni+Te in the Jungian sense might be typed Ti+Ne in MBTI. The reason seems to be that an Ni+Te type when extroverting will have a closer psychological understanding/utilization of Ne over Te because intuition is the most preferred; and their ability to use Jungian Ni with thinking in order to synthesize and deconstruct how certain ideas of thought or rationale play out in reality is seen as Ti. But it's a different Ti, one that doesn't really like or want to judge people impersonally, but is used as a tool to understand things and constantly question and re-evaluate their own conclusions, one that seeks to categorize the world symbolically and not typically seek ways to judge your actions. Jung's Ti requires that one judges other people impersonally in some manner.

I know this sounds like the J/P thing in socionics, but that's kind of a coincidence; the way socionics is applied apart from Jung is really intellectually dishonest/biased and thus stupid, imo.

A lot of people don't care about typology as much as I seem to, so I don't think anyone particularly cares what details I have here and probably the majority of members here think typology is just a lesson in bias, and a pseudo-science. Point being, it's a good idea to understand how someone is looking at this so you don't get confused, imo.

Maybe I just wasted 10 minutes of my life writing this for people that don't actually care what I think or think it's crazy to bother, but what the hell. That's my honest transient assessment at the moment.

 

[lunalum]

First, state whether you use Ni or Ne (doesn't have to be dominant or auxiliary).

Ne, I think. (That part is obligatory )

How do you come up with ideas?

How do I not come up with them? And I don't mean that in the sense that idea-generation never turns off but that it just happens in so many ways. I do have a lot of blank states where nothing at all comes to me. Sometimes one thing sort of cooks up and weaves itself inside of me and it is solid enough that I know it's a strong answer. A lot of times all sorts of things will just come up in some chaotic sort of chain and fly away and I have to try to catch them in a net to get them to work together and be expressable. A lot of times I go through seas of research and experiences with a net for those that inspire something. Sometimes I can go in my own head and find something spring enough to jump from. The only rule to ideas is there are no rules The new and shiny helps though... (that, and actually feeling 'well')

What do you think of brainstorming?

Very helpful if I have someone actually willing to play idea-catch with me. Paper is a nice substitute for the majority of the time that that is not available. Sometimes it will trigger one of those blank states though and the flow is better when I've tricked myself into focusing on something else and of course at that point my mind is willing to venture elsewhere In group settings it is something I can get kind of serious about, not that the session should be serious because it really has to be the opposite , but that since it's important it bothers me if things spiral into addressing the people in the group on a personal level or talking about what they are going to do later that week without any intention of using such sidetracking to make the session/project more awesome.

When I come up with a creative solution or idea, I usually wouldn't be able to explain how I came up with it. I just think about it and an idea comes to me. If I like the idea, I might go with that, unless I think I can come up with something better, then I'll keep thinking. I'm not really trying to grasp at many different possibilities and then evaluate them later, it's more like I'm diving into a sea of ideas, searching for the one perfect idea, and when I find it I'll just know that's the one. Though it's not often that I actually find "the one". I usually end up settling for an idea that's good enough, though not really what I'd been searching for.

I can relate to this somewhat. "Diving into the sea" is one of many appropriate analogies I have used... it could be a different sort of sea you are talking about here though.

I've never really liked brainstorming. To me it just doesn't seem necessary, because if I focus on the kind of idea I'm looking for, I can come up with something creative. I don't really need to make a list of possible ideas, because all I need is one good one. I also don't like writing down every idea I come up with because I like to filter it out right away and only keep it in mind if it's one of the best ideas.

This seems like it could be a I/E thing in general, rather than Ne/Ni, if it's just that you like to do all the filtering in your head.


I'm starting to get a little tired here so as a shortcut I'll say pretty much all that [MENTION=10491]mmhmm[/MENTION] said applies, especially the part about mutant idea babies

 

[alcea rosea]

I have dominant Ne and I love brainstorming. I come up with new ideas of doing things etc. very often. Brainstorming is very natural for me. I'm also good in combining "old" things to "new things". This brainstroming of mine concentrates more on thoughts/ideas than on actualy physical world. I mean, I'm creative but not creative as a artist who does something with his/her hands. I'm more creative in idea/thought-level. And I'm good in promoting my ideas ot other people but I'm also willing to change a view-point if somebody has good enough idea in my opinion. And I'm always able/willing to come up with better ideas. I get inspired with brainstorming but my interest in the ideas that I come up with isn't that long lasting... So, I have short attention spam also. But the ideas that really inspire me, I am able to make them happen. Because even if I have ideas of things that aren't realistically able to make happen (what if-kind of things), most of my ideas can be implemented to real life. I am also good in organizing people to make things happen, and it's sometimes better than other people implement and test my ideas.

 

[21%]

Interesting. You made me consider this a bit deeper. I see you do not brainstorm. It looks like you use a form of deduction to understand an issue/problem...Then you just wait for a solution to appear? That seems very Ni. But not so much Ti, as Ti is all about finding a solution, and making something work. But maybe as tert Ti, Ti is more just about deduction and understanding and not so much about finding a solution?

...

So, you made me consider I really do use deductive methods (Ti?) to understand something/someone, but then I also use induction to put it all back together, which I think is Ni at work (with Fe/Te?). So it's like a V^ (mountain) of breaking down, putting back together. But mostly I lean toward inductive reasoning, which I perceive is due to my dom Ni.

It's hard for me to differentiate between Ni and Ti. I know Ni is supposed to be about the perspective -- like where you are looking from, and Ni is supposed to be like running around a thing trying to get a look from all angles to decide what it is, but there's gotta be Fe and Ti at work there somewhere.

When I look at an INTJ's Ni+Te and compare it to my own thought processes, I find Ni+Te extremely structured and rather rigid. I can relate a lot of why Ni+Te would come up with a certain train of thought -- but I wouldn't go down that path myself. It's like a piece of information that Te considers important is not considered as important by Fe, or Ti, even in logical reasoning.

Ti doms jump too quickly to solution's oriented thinking for me, have you noticed that as well? Not thorough enough. My Ti is definitely slave to my N.

I feel like Ti doms jump to all kinds of conclusions very quickly, but can afterwards change their mind just as quickly
Ti also feels very broad, for some reason. Te cares about the details. Ti doesn't. That's just my impression anyway (with nothing to back it up, unfortunately)

Overall, I am a VERY slow thinker, but I'd say very thorough. (when it's a 'subject' I like).

Me too! It takes ages for me to 'settle' on an opinion. But once I have an opinion, it's pretty hard to change it.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

It's hard for me to differentiate between Ni and Ti. I know Ni is supposed to be about the perspective -- like where you are looking from, and Ni is supposed to be like running around a thing trying to get a look from all angles to decide what it is, but there's gotta be Fe and Ti at work there somewhere.

When I look at an INTJ's Ni+Te and compare it to my own thought processes, I find Ni+Te extremely structured and rather rigid. I can relate a lot of why Ni+Te would come up with a certain train of thought -- but I wouldn't go down that path myself. It's like a piece of information that Te considers important is not considered as important by Fe, or Ti, even in logical reasoning.

Yes, it is. Ni/Fe allows Ni to fly higher because Fe doesn't constrain Ni as much as Te does. INTJs' Ni is limited by the need of Te to be correct and logical. Fe, because it is necessarily more rooted in the heart, has not as many constraints. Ni/Te also needs to inform others, teach them and acquire them as followers; even more reason for them to be rationally informed.

I just feel Ni surrounding my psyche and filtering (with Si) the rational functions, in their contrasting attitudes, through it. As with anything ethereal, the more you look at it head on, the less you can really see it or know it or feel it. Ni (and Si, and the other irrational functions) in me is something I more intuit at work.

These specific ideas regarding Ni/Fe and Ni/Te are not my own. They are from Solitary Walker's works. His blog regarding it is on Type C.

I feel like Ti doms jump to all kinds of conclusions very quickly, but can afterwards change their mind just as quickly
Ti also feels very broad, for some reason. Te cares about the details. Ti doesn't. That's just my impression anyway (with nothing to back it up, unfortunately)

Perhaps Ti and Ne? I know Ti/Se intimately and I don't find that istps change their mind very easily. I think Ti feels detailed and Te feels more far-reaching. Ti must find what makes something work. From my understanding (Lenore Thompson's wiki is very good with function definitions), Ti is very specific.

Me too! It takes ages for me to 'settle' on an opinion. But once I have an opinion, it's pretty hard to change it.

I have a hard time knowing if this is true for me. I guess it depends on how Fe + Te play in the decision. If I only have Fe on board, or Te on board (and the other hasn't really decided or I lack info in that regard), I won't be so hard headed about it; leaving room for Ni (or Si) to adjust to new information. If, however, Fe and Te have both corroborated some information, I will likely be much harder to sway. Like have the stubbornness of an infj/intj rolled into one. Otherwise, I perceive myself as pretty open-minded. Not sure if others would agree or not, but, yeah.

 

[freeeekyyy]

Perhaps Ti and Ne? I know Ti/Se intimately and I don't find that istps change their mind very easily. I think Ti feels detailed and Te feels more far-reaching. Ti must find what makes something work. From my understanding (Lenore Thompson's wiki is very good with function definitions), Ti is very specific.

Yes, but this is often taken to mean that Te is less objective or less concerned with truth, which I don't think is true. It's lack of detail has more to do with a different focus than it does with being any less meticulous. Te is more universal than Ti, which kind of forces it to put things into abstractions, and to not look at details. It tries to create a single rule set that can be applied in any situation, where Ti seems to be more dependent on context. Te isn't so much "logic" as it is cause and effect.

I'm sure my interpretation is colored by my own use of the function, though. To somebody else, it may appear different.

 

[EJCC]

I feel like Ti doms jump to all kinds of conclusions very quickly, but can afterwards change their mind just as quickly
Ti also feels very broad, for some reason. Te cares about the details. Ti doesn't. That's just my impression anyway (with nothing to back it up, unfortunately)

I would say that's the opposite impression of mine. My dad is an INTP and he's all about the little details. One way we have consistently clashed (well not really "clashed", but driven each other a little bonkers), is that when we're trying to make a decision together, I always feel like he takes way too long -- not because he's moving slowly per se in terms of his thought processes, but because he does so much research that I would consider unnecessary. I'd say that a lot of what you were describing about Ni -- i.e. moving around and trying to recognize something from all angles -- included a little bit of Ti, too, i.e. that there's a focus in getting all possible information before deciding on something, whereas Te is about getting only the information required to get something done, and then getting it done. You could say that Te makes the presumption that it can judge what information is "relevant", whereas Ti presumes that there's no way to know what information is relevant initially because it could all be of use somehow.

Me too! It takes ages for me to 'settle' on an opinion. But once I have an opinion, it's pretty hard to change it.

Definitely sounds like Ni, to me. The Ne types I know are very quick to change their opinions if enough evidence is brought to them. STJs included. But the Ni types are so cemented in what they think -- probably because, like you said, they put so much silent effort into putting together a perfect, flawless system, that if a fact is presented to them that contradicts just a small part of that system, they feel like they'd have to rip the whole thing apart and start again -- like a spiderweb. (This is from my experience with INFJ friends and family.) Whereas Ne seems more like, say, some tentacled creature, where every appendage is something they know -- and if you cut off an appendage, that doesn't do anything to the central part of the beast. It just grows a tentacle back and goes about its business. <-- of course, that could be biased since I'm an Fi user too; I don't know if Ne/Ti users have that same "core" that all the little appendages come out of.

 

[Redbone]

Great thread.

Creativity.

I have images in my head of how I'd like things to be. I use information as tool to change the focus of the idea. Make it sharper. Or to change the shape of it. I often discard those ideas because they are not perfect. Some part of the plan may not exist or it may be so difficult to achieve that it pulls me off the main goal. I'm very reluctant to discuss these ideas with others. It can be hard to put into words or the idea itself becomes "tainted" upon exposure to others, especially if it is still half-baked.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I always thought of brainstorming as an activity designed to help people who aren't naturally "idea people"; they have to consciously form connections. Those little brainstorm charts in school seemed tedious & pointless to me. Let's just jump to the end.

Ideas have to flow naturally for me too. They often arrived fully formed; sometimes I just get an image or phrase that is interesting & inspires me to use it exactly as is or as a theme of sorts. I know something is interesting enough for me to do when it keeps "bothering" me. Other stuff just amuses me & then I forget about it.

However, other people's ideas can inspire me; when you work in art departments or in teaching settings, you really HAVE to be open to collaborative idea-forming. I think this is Ne related because of the interaction involved; it can be energizing to ping ideas around. A lot of times, it can just help to shape & clarify an already existing idea I have. Maybe it's not so much inspiring as refining ideas, combining them with others, so as to make something useful of it all. I get really annoyed when people mention ideas they don't want to explore. I think, "Why would you suggest this if you have no intention of doing it ever?". I think this is Ne too - it's not simply mental exploration, but really pursuing that idea & creating something real. Je types always seem to want to plan ahead, and so they suggest things they never do because they put off planning it - we could have done it a million times over if we just DID it & forwent all that planning waste of time. Although I don't mind silliness - going down the rabbit hole just to see. That's fine, but if it morphs into something really interesting, then be prepared to DO it. I was rather secretly mischievous as a child because of this tendency. My ENFP best friend & I were always blowing marshmallows up in the microwave, burying headless barbies in the garden, or spray painting goofy limericks on the park asphalt. I built a playhouse entirely out of paper once - just to see if I could do it. It was awesome; my mom still talks about it to this day.

I do sometimes take from other things too; I like looking at fashion magazines for inspiration. I don't copy what I see; I just use it as a springboard & then form something of my own. My brain sort of immediately discerns the base concept & tosses the obvious; a lot of this is Fi-ish too - there's some feeling-tone attachment that says "this is good, keep this, toss that" so you end up with a very vague framework to use. Nothing is wholly original anyway; it's all derivative if you consider it closely enough. I'm driven to improve also, and I think that is a Fi (maybe just Ji) influence. It can be frustrating to know exactly how something could be better but not have the ability to do it, whether financially or talent-wise or whatever. I'm very much a "dreamer", always thinking of a better future.

I sometimes find doing something else that is unrelated to the task helps to get ideas. When I do graphic design, I have to create on command, which is hard when you're not in the mood; so when I get stuck, I take a break. I do something else. Doing something else gives me ideas. It's very indirect & it looks like goofing off . If I were to map backwards how an idea might have formed, then it might look like brainstorming, but I don't consciously do it. Instead I just focus on other things, stop thinking about it, and wait for some inspiration to strike. You learn these "methods" to harness inspiration when creating is your paycheck.

Frankly, I think most of my creativity comes down to Fi though. I was most creative when younger, when Ne seemed less developed. I had more concentration, more focus on a singular idea, and I was way more productive. I spent a lot of time creating things which mirrored some fantasy ideal I had or expressed my view of how people/the world are, and I didn't even quite know it then. The desire to create to express a hard to articulate concept - that is Fi motivated. I will often get ideas when thinking about what I want/need or some general truth about people/the world, but via some mental fantasy story or exploration of a mood (aka imagination). Wallowing in a (good or bad) mood helps a lot . Then an idea pops up, and if it's interesting enough, then I'll do something with it.

 

[strychnine]

I use Ne, I think. Sometimes I'm not thinking about much at all. But sometimes if I get on a topic or something happens that stimulated my mind, the thoughts come rushing at me all at once. It's just like a hurricane/ tornado of thoughts.(Edit: I guess that's why they call it brain"storming"- get it?) I don't know if I would always call them ideas. Sometimes they are questions, sometimes they are better understandings, sometimes reinforcements or connections, and sometimes they are brand new ideas- which can be very bad or very good (or silly or morbid or strange or stupid or any other number of adjectives- they are just ideas of any form.) Most of my thoughts are in images. It can be like those dreams stereotypical in cartoons and TV shows, a bunch of nonsensical images floating in spirals in my mind- (actually, that is a good example of an "image" that I was unable to turn into solid words so I just described the image instead.) And that's what happens when I'm processing things. and when it's moving really fast hopefully I can pick a thought line and slow it down and break it down a bit. (Not always) and in the worst versions of these sessions, I'm back to nothing or square one. In the best ones, I come up with good solid connections, understandings, and things that I've never thought about before.

I get the thought rush too -- I like to call it a thought explosion lol. It's like one thought and then 2304348932043 thoughts, in all directions, of all kinds, out of seemingly nowhere. And it only happens when something sufficiently interesting comes along, otherwise I am just bored and mentally dead.

I have to stop the flow to some degree to choose one and dissect it, which means I lose the other thoughts.

I totally relate to this post. But I always thought this was Se because it's based on existing data...idk.

I have realizations or understandings usually after I think about something for a while... but I thought this "aha" comes from Fi or Ti rather than Pe, because I have to go in-depth/dissect/take-apart to get the realization. It doesn't seem like perception. It's also much more certain, it's not "Maybe it's like this..." it's "I know this is correct." But then again I am probably not your same type so... lol... don't mind me.


[MENTION=5857]LunaLuminosity[/MENTION] : I relate to your post as well. I need someone to help me filter the ideas out, but it seems no one wants to do that (at least offline). Or the person gets interested as well which results in further amplification of the ideas and it gets out of control. But why does it need to be controlled? I guess it doesn't, but I need to stop at some point and go deeper rather than expand further.... so I think this is an E thing, because I find it easier to get breadth which corresponds to Pe > Ji. </ramble>


I guess I still don't really get Se and Ne, let me read about that more lol....

 

[rav3n]

This is Ne in action:

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLDbGqJ2KYk"]Ne[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Sniffles]

This is Ne in action:

So is this!

 

[King sns]

I get the thought rush too -- I like to call it a thought explosion lol. It's like one thought and then 2304348932043 thoughts, in all directions, of all kinds, out of seemingly nowhere. And it only happens when something sufficiently interesting comes along, otherwise I am just bored and mentally dead.

I have to stop the flow to some degree to choose one and dissect it, which means I lose the other thoughts.

I totally relate to this post. But I always thought this was Se because it's based on existing data...idk.

I have realizations or understandings usually after I think about something for a while... but I thought this "aha" comes from Fi or Ti rather than Pe, because I have to go in-depth/dissect/take-apart to get the realization. It doesn't seem like perception. It's also much more certain, it's not "Maybe it's like this..." it's "I know this is correct." But then again I am probably not your same type so... lol... don't mind me.


[MENTION=5857]LunaLuminosity[/MENTION] : I relate to your post as well. I need someone to help me filter the ideas out, but it seems no one wants to do that (at least offline). Or the person gets interested as well which results in further amplification of the ideas and it gets out of control. But why does it need to be controlled? I guess it doesn't, but I need to stop at some point and go deeper rather than expand further.... so I think this is an E thing, because I find it easier to get breadth which corresponds to Pe > Ji. </ramble>


I guess I still don't really get Se and Ne, let me read about that more lol....

I thought it was Se too. But Ne actually develops it's ideas from the environment and preexisting things a lot of the time. But the focus is more on the flow of ideas than the detail itself. It's still extroverted. Ni would draw from within, as far as I understand. (Excuse me, I'm just thinking out loud, they are all hard to differentiate.) An Se user wouldn't be as likely attach meaning to the things, they are more likely to see the world as is. So, they can take the world in much greater detail than others. (Which why they may be prone to action- because they can move from one physical detail to the next without going off exponentially on tangents in their minds.)

 

[strychnine]

I thought it was Se too. But Ne actually develops it's ideas from the environment and preexisting things a lot of the time. But the focus is more on the flow of ideas than the detail itself. It's still extroverted. Ni would draw from within, as far as I understand. (Excuse me, I'm just thinking out loud, they are all hard to differentiate.) An Se user wouldn't be as likely attach meaning to the things, they are more likely to see the world as is. So, they can take the world in much greater detail than others. (Which why they may be prone to action- because they can move from one physical detail to the next without going off exponentially on tangents in their minds.)

So they are seeing the environment mostly in terms of the idea it produces. I guess there is nothing 100% novel anyway, there are only different syntheses of the environment or existing ideas, and some of those syntheses are so "far-out" that they seem like they are completely novel. (That is not to undervalue Ne of course -- the vast majority of people can't even do that...)

In any case, though I don't seem to attach meaning to things. I do, but using Ji, not Pe. I think that means I'm Se and not Ne.