Victor's thoughts on makeup

[Thalassa]

Then the joke is that people are actually upset.

I'm glad I'm not upset.

 

[entropie]

[MENTION=4109]entropie[/MENTION], I don't think anyone who is complaining about Victor's tactics lacks the intelligence to understand his ideas. Some of them are interesting; others are half-baked at best. They are, in essence, only conversation starters. But he's so in love with them as-is that he doesn't want to let the world sully them by having an actual conversation about them. There are interesting conversations to be had that could be sparked by his theories about MBTI or makeup or whatever, but he's not willing to open his mind to the possibility of amending them. The rest of the world understands that our theories are constantly being amended as new perspectives are added, perspectives we haven't thought about as we sit alone in our rooms. Victor seems to see these other perspectives as an attack on his pristine idea. To me, that renders a lot of his ideas fairly useless. He doesn't acknowledge, as would the rest of us, that there's room for error, and it doesn't mean the person who pointed it out is a fearful bully. You seem to be reacting to him the way he reacts to himself--do you really believe that people are reacting to him the way they do out of fear?

I meant that people are always reacting negatively to what they dont understand. You want to discuss Victors ideas and wish for him to discuss his ideas rationally, maybe even from a scientific background, so one can see if what he says really makes sense. By that you want him to be like you, you demand things from him you would like for yourself, but you dont ask if he wants that or if he can do that. It's often the thing I engage in heavy conflicts about with intps.

Victor is prolly the only one of his species on this forum, if he is so in the real world, he never really had an opportunity to build some sort of self-confidence into his ways. Maybe his way of speaking is even the direct result of an unattend self-conciencse. Because he maybe had the feeling he wasnt special, he developed a role he plays for himself. But maybe its different and he is just like that, by analyzing that and not accepting it like it is, I am doing the same mistake. I try to explain everything rationally and by that way to seek understanding for myself, loosing the ability to empathise.

If Victor really wanted to make sense, he would do so, but there is more to it. He prolly cant open up just like that and the ideas he posutlates aint really the epitome of all wisdom. They are as you said often only an opener for dialog, but maybe thats what he wants in essence, a dialog that helps him to come out of his shell. You are able to learn a lot about people if you dont put them into a common worldview or demand them to make sense, it's the true essence of an abstract thinkers mind, but it is the highest danger as well, cause your interpretations could always be totally wrong.

I dont like Victor for his intelligence, but for the way he speaks. His attempt to reason thru lyrics is very unnormal and I like everything thats not normal and boring. I like his courage to make himself a clown and to speak like he does. And I recognize a hurt soul encapsulated in a thick shell, a feeling I can very much emphasize with, cause there was a time I talked like Victor myself, it took me some years to learn to reason and to speak my mind so everyone would understand as well.

 

[entropie]

I disagree with your definition of "genius". You cannot just create your own definitions lol....
"Genius is something or someone embodying exceptional intellectual ability, creativity, or originality, typically to a degree that is associated with the achievement of unprecedented insight."
Why are you spreading false information?!

Why false ? It said "a genius is someone embodying [..] eceptional creativity and originality" thats what I said as well. I'd be more worried about them saying "a genius is something [..]"

I think you assume I do not understand. It is others who do not understand. I am very studied in other areas of psychology. Just because I am choosing not to give my correct opinions, does not mean I do not have them.
I simply think that at least 99% of people fail to see a gigantic, pink elephant in their front yards, lucky for some. It intrigues me to watch it all take place.
It is not really up to me to show anyone (and for the most part, I do not think it would matter, anyway), but I do find some peoples responses to be quite telling and entertaining. Been through this same situation a number of times in my life....... but never on paper and in writing. I could spread the news easily, but I'''''''''m being nice.

I dont assume, I know you dont understand otherwise you would know that bragging with being studied in something as a means of reasoning does bring your reputation down with me.

I have not understood the rest of what you said, if you could explain that a bit more please.

Btw, are you 18 yet ? ( just that I know how offensive I can get in the upcoming posts )

 

[ICUP]

Why false ? It said "a genius is someone embodying [..] eceptional creativity and originality" thats what I said as well. I'd be more worried about them saying "a genius is something [..]"

I dont assume, I know you dont understand otherwise you would know that bragging with being studied in something as a means of reasoning does bring your reputation down with me.

I have not understood the rest of what you said, if you could explain that a bit more please.

Btw, are you 18 yet ? ( just that I know how offensive I can get in the upcoming posts )

Yes, this posting seems to be an attempt at the style of ICUP, ..... but I also have some substance thrown in there somewhere. This is nothing but fluff, entropie. You seem to have plucked out the fluff and left the actual points-to-be-made, for someone else.

We apparently disagree. So be it. And that wasn't meant to be bragging, it was actually a more covert message, and possibly meant for someone else to read.... (I don't consider myself "very" studied in anything, actually lol, but in this case, it seems more than usual compared to others, thank god.......... I just explain what-is to me, and I don't consider being "very studied" necessarily anything to brag about anyways......heh. I think alot of people around here do, so people assume I am bragging.) I've seen all-too-many "very studied" people who are as useless as tits on a bull, to consider it to be anything to brag about. You can have a fucking great education, and be useless in the grand scheme of things. I wasn't using that as a form of reasoning either; you claimed I didn't understand, and I was telling you I did understand. It's more of a disagreement. If you didn't get the message, just consider that it's a message you didn't receive, and call it a day, because I would consider trying to explain myself further to be a useless endeavor, since you apparently aren't really interested, but more interested in believing you know all the answers, and making fun of those who are trying to find them.

Oh, I've already seen you try to become offensive toward me, I don't need to understand that. I just honestly don't give a shit. In other words, I consider any further interaction with you a waste of my fucking time, considering it is going to lead me or you, absolutely nowhere. Where exactly were you going with this post, other than to try to irritate people, namely me? Yes, my posts are sometimes irritating, but I'm usually trying to make a point somewhere along the line, other than just trying to insult someone.
And if you haven't noticed, I'm not really worried about my reputation lol, and never have been, especially on an internet forum. There are enough freaks around to make me look like Mary Poppins.
Considering the 18 comment, I'm 41 lol..... I know I act rather young for my age, at times. I attribute this to the fact that I've never been married and have no kids. Also, my father was an estp 7w6 who never really acted his age haha. It's out-of-the-ordinary, but it makes me happy. Regardless of maturity level, I retain that sense of silliness and youthful vibe, that my father had. I don't think it's ever really been something I strived to do, but it just is.

Yes, I know that people think I'm not a good writer, and I know I'm not, but I honestly don't care enough to change it. I have bigger fish to fry. My understanding is much more than I can actually convey to people. I'm a horrible teacher, and horrible at explaining concepts to people. I've accepted that, and have decided to focus on skills I am more talented at. I also try to remain simple in interactions, because it's easy for me to lose people. If I write simply, there won't be as many misunderstandings that I then have to explain further. I try to remain basic, for that reason. It drives me nuts when people continue to misunderstand me. Honestly, I would trade actual understanding for written skills any day of the week, and that's where my focus lies.

If you want to be involved in all this behind-the-scenes bullshit with the girls, that puts you in a different category in my book. I try to stay as far away from that sort of social insanity as I can get. If I choose to talk about someone, it's for a reason of information-gathering and sleuthing, not because I'm interested in being involved in a bunch of F'ey girly social bullshit. Sometimes people take that kind of crap too far for internet, imo. If you want a real social circle and friends, go out irl and get them. I consider that if someone is talking shit about me, then they'll just have to talk shit. I couldn't care less about my reputation with people who operate in those modes, in fact, I hope they just go the fuck away from me. Anything they could add to my life surely is not worth the trouble, and I usually close the door completely on people like that. So, no, I don't think it is so stupid to test people in order to find out who they are, since the end result is that you will know if you want them around or not. And if you really couldn't care less about any consequences it may incur, why not? If someone is honorable, it will be in evidence, clear and true. And if they are not, it may show more people out to be the filth they are. There is nothing wrong with inquiring about others, and/or investigating strangers on a fucking internet forum. And there's nothing wrong with being involved in a lying, gossipy, F'ey little circle who is worried about their reputations, on an internet forum lol. It lies in which you prefer to do, and which you think is fun to do. If you want, you have my permission to go ask as many dumb bimbos as you want if I'm a mass-murderer, and accuse me of being one. Since I am not one and don't show any signs of being one, I'm sure they will all agree. I am sure that the first thing i will do is call "character assassination".

No offense meant to any F's, as I think there are some fine examples of F's on this forum, who are nothing like I am describing. But we all know how the stereotypes are......
and some people seem to fit them to a T, with T's being involved too.... don't leave those out.
---------------------------------------

I suppose I need to learn that if you see a duck, and you show someone a duck, they might think it looks like a seahorse. This whole situation has made me realize how vicious people are to cling onto beliefs that will protect them, regardless of reality. Again. LoL.... people are whacked. Whoever said that people react to Victor out of fear, is probably mostly-right. He seems to bring out issues in people, to show them in the light, all brilliant and glittering, which is why I have always appreciated people like Victor. They can show us the worst side of people. I always end up feeling very disappointed in people, and I lose a bit more faith in them. On the up side, I gain a little more faith in myself and the people I hold dear. My S.O. is the most intelligent, most loving person I have ever known. And he's an 8 ha.

I think a good 75% of you possibly need to see a therapist, at this point lmfao. And to study personality disorders.......Possibly join a forum to learn more about pd's.

 

[Agent Jelly]

But what would Victor consider tattoos then?

 

[Tiltyred]

I suppose I need to learn that if you see a duck, and you show someone a duck, they might think it looks like a seahorse.

Yes. And you can show them pictures of ducks, and recordings of duck calls, and duck feathers, and serve them duck soup, and they will still maintain that it's a seahorse, and when you ask them why they refuse to look at any evidence and reconsider, they say because it's their opinion, and get angry with you for not valuing their opinion, and get conceited about their originality and their ability to steadfastly maintain an opinion unlike anyone else's in the face of all evidence to the contrary, when all you want to do is go along with everyone else who sees a duck and calls it a duck.

 

[Salomé]

A lot of people have noted this phenomenon, it's not something I just made up, and furthermore it's because of my endless study of type that I now know my type, and am not just guessing or picking one that sounds good.

Jung himself said we often need the insight of other people to see ourselves correctly.

It’s nice that you have a hobby, but you’ll forgive me if someone who vacillates as much as you do over something as simple as whether she is an introvert or an extrovert is not exactly my go-to person on type.

Simulated World loves Lenore Thomson and is no longer with us here at Type C, but his Jungian insight can still be found on PersN. He's the one who I first saw suggest the Fi/Ni loop for Vic, and I realize now that I grasp function theory better just how well ISFP fits than INFP for him.

And why is he no longer with us? I appreciated Sim’s insights, but not his insistence on forcing his opinion of someone’s type down their throats. In fact, iirc, you kicked up such a stink about his unsolicited typing of you that it got him a ban. And yet here you are, doing exactly the same thing. Doesn’t that seem a bit hypocritical?

Why? The nail polish/makeup thread was accomplishing the purpose it was started for. No one intended to solve any major world issues in that thread, and yet some (yes, intelligent) posters found answers to questions they had about something they use in their daily lives. Talking about nail polish doesn't make one a half-wit. And threads like that are also a way that posters share their experience with other posters, creating good will. I think that's pretty useful.

I don’t see any threads calling for a ban on inane topics, do you? I tend to ignore things that don’t interest me, I think that’s a pretty rational approach. If lots of threads like that started springing up, I’d probably just disappear for a bit (or forever). No big deal.

Victor starts threads about the same two ideas, then refuses to engage people in an honest debate about his ideas. He decides to interpret genuine engagement as bullying, and nothing happens except a discussion about Victor and his methods. People then jump in and defend him, as you are doing, but the defenses always imply that there's some element of genius that the rest of the board is missing
...
Frankly, I'm not sure why we aren't allowed to be annoyed with Victor's tactics. He's off-limits, where others can be ripped to shreds at will. He's not defenseless or weak, and he is perfectly capable of coming up with a tactic to reach more people with his "message," if that is truly what he desires. But it's not. Perhaps he feels like amending his style of communication renders him inauthentic. That's fine. But it will be received the same way each and every time.

I’m not defending him. He hasn’t done anything requiring a defense. Nor have I said at any point that I think the man is a genius. It’s kind of bizarre that you think he needs defending. What, exactly, is his crime?

I could defend his ideas and explain why I think, rather than evidence of his “misogyny”, they are entirely in line with the opinions of feminists like Greer, Wolf and Levy (to name a few). But unpacking all the meaning embedded in the phrase “women mimic arousal” would take several pages, which is more investment than I’m prepared to give this forum right now. Perhaps more than he is too, when he is met with such unreasoning hostility.

I find Victor stimulating (and whether you like it or not, so do you, or you wouldn’t continue to engage in these threads). It’s the kind of stimulation he offers (as well as that offered by people like yourself) that makes visiting this place occasionally worthwhile to the likes of me and I detest the kind of intolerance and bullying that goes on whenever he expresses his opinion. You have to ask yourselves why you want to shut him up so badly. Even if I disagreed with everything he said (and I don’t often find myself in agreement with him), I’d still defend his right to say it.

As for him being “off-limits”, almost every time he posts he’s met with a stream of abuse and personal attacks which are entirely sanctioned, even engaged in, by the mods, so your perception is a bit off.

I think the strength of feeling against Victor says more about the audience than it does him, and that offers us significant insight into ourselves. Isn’t that why we became interested in typology in the first place? You can choose to acknowledge that or dismiss it, but what shouldn’t be allowed to happen is the kind of lynching party that immediately sets itself up to assassinate his character.
It’s playground bullshit.

I'm not sure whether you really mean what you say half the time, but I can explain to you why derailed threads upset me. It's as if you are listening to music that you thoroughly enjoy, and then somebody abruptly puts on bagpipes or marching band music full blast, and you have no choice then but to listen to bagpipes or marching band music.

You have “no choice”? Really? I don’t think that’s the case. I think you can ask for the derail to be removed and then you can go back to enjoying your thread. Getting your panties in a wad about it is nonsensical.

The first time I heard Victor’s “women mimic arousal” mantra I think I responded much as you have here. I’m actually glad he repeated it though, because eventually, I began to understand the many layers of what he was driving at. And even if I read nuances into it that he hadn’t intended, that’s cool too. That’s what art is about. That’s what intuition is for. I never thought I’d see people condemned for using metaphorical language on a board that evolved out of iNtuitive Central. It’s kind of sad.

Also, I don't understand why @Salome believes the members discussing cosmetics in the other thread are half-wits. Are you willing to elaborate?

It was a hypothetical. I haven’t read the thread, but I admit, my heart sunk when I saw the posts come up in iSpy. Perhaps because I visit places like this to get away from people talking about stuff that I find so dull it makes me want to stab myself in the eye for some distraction.

The point is I don’t have to like the things you like, or want to talk about the things you want to talk about. But I resent it when others seek to ostracize and silence the people who talk about stuff that does interest me. There should be space enough for both, but if there isn’t, then I would suggest that Victor’s preoccupations are more relevant to the ostensible purpose of this board than a bit of fluff about how to apply lip gloss.

 

[Tiltyred]

God help me, talk about wanting to stab yourself in the eye with frustration, Salome! I'm surprised at you! I think it's been said repeatedly that the prime point of objection, and how the rage comes down, is that he keeps derailing threads.

If he had started his own thread about women, my reaction would be 1) oh, crap, not THIS again, which I hate as much as you hate makeup threads, and 2) there's got to be something else here to engage in.

He jumps into a thread of women enjoying a conversation about makeup to bring up the old business of women mimicking arousal.
He jumps into a thread of men enjoying a conversation about sports to tell them they have no inner life and make graphically insulting remarks about sports.

Then he complains when people get angry at him, complains he's being bullied, and threatens to have people banned.

Get the big picture ...

And p.s., getting my panties in a wad may be nonsensical, but I never claimed to be a plaster saint. --The point remains that he loves to bust your groove.

And p.p.s., for pete's sake, who's condemning him for using metaphorical language? It's being incomprehensible that's the problem, and metaphorical language when you refuse to elucidate just gets old after awhile, or it has for me. He never pursues his discussions. Yes, part of the reason is that he's jumped on, but he's jumped on because he often puts them where they are in direct contradiction to a conversation other people happen to be enjoying.

P.P.P.S. The "women mimic arousal" idea is one I've explored pretty extensively. I have a strong liberal arts background, bunches of courses in Women's Studies, have done a good bit of study and writing on the subject of Victorian women, etc., so there's very little he can say on that subject that I don't already know the all the moves to, if that makes sense. It's entirely predictable and no good ever comes of it. If it is enlightening to you, that's good, but it bores me senseless and I find it tedious.

AND it came right on the heels of his pm-ing me threatening to have me banned if I insulted him.

 

[mrcockburn]

^ uh dude...*everyone* here derails threads. It's like standard procedure.

 

[ICUP]

Yes. And you can show them pictures of ducks, and recordings of duck calls, and duck feathers, and serve them duck soup, and they will still maintain that it's a seahorse, and when you ask them why they refuse to look at any evidence and reconsider, they say because it's their opinion, and get angry with you for not valuing their opinion, and get conceited about their originality and their ability to steadfastly maintain an opinion unlike anyone else's in the face of all evidence to the contrary, when all you want to do is go along with everyone else who sees a duck and calls it a duck.

Heh, this isn't the first time I've seen this happen, by far. It seems to be human nature. People are too afraid, can't, or don't want to face reality. Irl, especially; this is just an internet simulation of it, which is different, of course, because it's on the internet and less serious. Unfortunately, they will pay to save their fears, over and over again.

 

[Ginkgo]

I could defend his ideas and explain why I think, rather than evidence of his “misogyny”, they are entirely in line with the opinions of feminists like Greer, Wolf and Levy (to name a few). But unpacking all the meaning embedded in the phrase “women mimic arousal” would take several pages, which is more investment than I’m prepared to give this forum right now. Perhaps more than he is too, when he is met with such unreasoning hostility.

True. The claims that Victor is misogynistic and has a mother complex, which have been echoed several times, doesn't fall in line with the ideas he promotes. When I first booted up my account here, all he could talk about was the emancipation of women through liberal democracy and how much he loved it. He wouldn't ever shut up about it. Honestly, I think these claims about Victor are due to 1) ignorance about Victors ideas, 2) reading in between the lines to fill in the blanks.

As for him being “off-limits”, almost every time he posts he’s met with a stream of abuse and personal attacks which are entirely sanctioned, even engaged in, by the mods, so your perception is a bit off.

Exactly.

I think the strength of feeling against Victor says more about the audience than it does him, and that offers us significant insight into ourselves. Isn’t that why we became interested in typology in the first place? You can choose to acknowledge that or dismiss it, but what shouldn’t be allowed to happen is the kind of lynching party that immediately sets itself up to assassinate his character.
It’s playground bullshit.

Exactly. Especially when you consider that Victor is such an enigma, most of the responses to him don't proceed from understanding him. They ultimately stem from the posters responding.

You have “no choice”? Really? I don’t think that’s the case. I think you can ask for the derail to be removed and then you can go back to enjoying your thread. Getting your panties in a wad about it is nonsensical.

99% of the time, the "no choice" plea is putrid BS.

 

[Tiltyred]

Um, he's spoken himself about his mother complex.
And, I repeat, for me and for others, he's not the slightest enigmatic. He appears to want to be, but he isn't.

 

[Ginkgo]

Um, he's spoken himself about his mother complex.
And, I repeat, for me and for others, he's not the slightest enigmatic. He appears to want to be, but he isn't.

He's spoken about his fear of women. Upon further inspection, he seems to have fears about a multitude of people all over the board. If you look at it from a broader context, women aren't exactly an exception. If they aren't an exception, then perhaps his views aren't as narrow and pigeon-holing as one might think.

 

[ICUP]

He's spoken about his fear of women. Upon further inspection, he seems to have fears about a multitude of people all over the board. If you look at it from a broader context, women aren't exactly an exception. If they aren't an exception, then perhaps his views aren't as narrow and pigeon-holing as one might think.

I think you are right, and I don't think he fears women or men in general, but only certain women and men. I think it's more of an innate occurrence, not an environmental circumstance, although environment initially contributed to the end result. I also think he prefers the company of women, and that he is quite androgynous. He seems to actually hate everyone equally, and view people in general as manipulative, not just women. (No, my intent is NOT to assassinate, but to understand. I am guilty of disliking many people myself, for cripes sakes.) Victor has never done anything to me directly to make me dislike him, anymore than ignoring my posts and moving to get me banned, which in this case, I don't find to be a big enough deal to assassinate anyone. I think he's using it as a manipulative tactic, in an attempt to get some women on his side, honestly. I also think he has some real issues with authority. It's as if he is obsessed with obtaining attention from the mods, sometimes.

In actuality, if he fears women like he says he does, then why is he corresponding with some of them, and using manipulative tactics to try to get them to do what he wants them to do? I think he fears the ones who are aware of his ways, and who show no signs of being victims themselves, irl.

 

[Salomé]

--The point remains that he loves to bust your groove.

If that's the case then I wonder why you love to give him what he wants so much...

And p.p.s., for pete's sake, who's condemning him for using metaphorical language? It's being incomprehensible that's the problem, and metaphorical language when you refuse to elucidate just gets old after awhile, or it has for me. He never pursues his discussions. Yes, part of the reason is that he's jumped on, but he's jumped on because he often puts them where they are in direct contradiction to a conversation other people happen to be enjoying.

Jenaphor was one, Randomnity another, there were probably others.
In one breath you say "he's incomprehensible" (which, btw, isn't a crime afaik) in the next you tell us that you understand him perfectly. Which is it?

P.P.P.S. The "women mimic arousal" idea is one I've explored pretty extensively. I have a strong liberal arts background, bunches of courses in Women's Studies, have done a good bit of study and writing on the subject of Victorian women, etc., so there's very little he can say on that subject that I don't already know the all the moves to, if that makes sense. It's entirely predictable and no good ever comes of it. If it is enlightening to you, that's good, but it bores me senseless and I find it tedious.

OK, so then you'll know that what you posted below is a complete mischaracterization of his message, presumably to whip up more murmuring amidst the mob?

I'm amazed that people think he's so profound. What did he say, in the end? Women should not wear makeup. And the reasoning is pure 18th century, pretty much borrowed from this piece:

An Act to protect men from being beguiled into marriage by false adornments. All women, of whatever rank, age, profession or degree, whether virgins, maids or widows, that shall, from and after such Act, impose upon, seduce or betray into matrimony, any of His Majesty's subjects, by the scents, paints, cosmetic washes, artificial teeth, false hair, Spanish wool, iron stays, hoops, high-heeled shoes and bolstered hips, shall incur the penalty of the law in force against witchcraft and like misdemeanours and that the marriage upon conviction shall stand null and void.

But because he phrases this in a way that suits your fancy, you think it's fine. Whereas if he said it in plain English, you'd scratch his eyes out.

How very disingenuous.

 

[Tiltyred]

Yes, but people aren't filling in blanks and making stuff up. He has spoken specifically about his mother complex. Whether women are an exception or not.

 

[Tiltyred]

If that's the case then I wonder why you love to give him what he wants so much...
Jenaphor was one, Randomnity another, there were probably others.
In one breath you say "he's incomprehensible" (which, btw, isn't a crime afaik) in the next you tell us that you understand him perfectly. Which is it?

OK, so then you'll know that what you posted below is a complete mischaracterization of his message, presumably to whip up more murmuring amidst the mob?


How very disingenuous.

Uh-huh.

 

[Viridian]

[MENTION=6877]Marmie Dearest[/MENTION], if I may ask, what are your thoughts on Victor's reaction to the claims made here about him? Do you find them warranted?

 

[Ginkgo]

Yes, but people aren't filling in blanks and making stuff up. He has spoken specifically about his mother complex. Whether women are an exception or not.

If you don't understand his metaphorical language, but still make statements about what he's saying, then yes. You are essentially making assumptions, though not necessarily "making things up" with a deliberate intention to deceive. At the very best, you are unaware of your self-deception.

Yes he's made allusions to it. However, if you don't understand him, perhaps your understanding of his "mother complex" isn't quite as lucid as you're claiming it is.

 

[Tiltyred]

If you don't understand his metaphorical language, but still make statements about what he's saying, then yes. You are essentially making assumptions, though not necessarily "making things up" with a deliberate intention to deceive. At the very best, you are unaware of your self-deception.

Yes he's made allusions to it. However, if you don't understand him, perhaps your understanding of his "mother complex" isn't quite as lucid as you're claiming it is.

What?