[Type 4] What's a 4w5?

[brainheart]

What the hell is a self-help book, anyway?
Let's see... I got into personality theory because I'm interested in understanding myself and others. Also, I wanted to heal myself... So isn't that self-help?

I'm a library junkie. At this point I am reading walden, the short stories of ernest hemingway, a book on raven biological research, and a book on how to de-clutter your house.

 

[Southern Kross]

Huh. Well what's the difference between that and 5w4?

Perhaps I'm not the best person to say as I have a very strong 5 wing and sometimes test 5w4. I feel that I'm more of a 4w5 because 5w4s can separate themselves from their own personal drama better. 5s are less apologetic for any differences or deficiencies they possess and therefore aren't as interested in addressing them, whereas 4w5s dwell on them a great deal. While 4w5s are more likely to experience inner turmoil, we are self-reliant, introspective, students of the human condition. This makes us better at acknowledging the dark and twisted sides of ourselves, facing it and dealing with it. 5s tend to think that if they distance themselves from others, the drama will naturally disappear - they cope through avoidance. And in general 5s are more interested in the pursuit of knowledge, than the pursuit of self-enlightenment.

I hope that answers your question

 

[Amargith]

Bring them forth. Tell me about yourselves.
(Also, I thought vala was a 7...)

I test as one sometimes and when I'm on one of my hyper kicks, I do appear as one I guess (also, it's part of my tritype: 4-9-7).
Compare me to Lady X or Agent Furrina though, to see the difference between enfp 7 and enfp 4. I'm more dramatic, less energetic and more introverted than they are.

What would you like to know? What sparked your interest in the type?


As for your question:

I decided on a 4 because I recognize the whole dramatic, self-reflecting, need for 'feeling right'-thing that 4's do. I've been called a 2, a 9, a 7 and a 4, but I become an unhealthy 2 when I'm stressed (4 turns into 2 when stressed), and I use the 9 only in large groups to keep the peace...it exhausts me though after a while (tritype theory), and the 7 when I either have excess energy to burn or when I'm passed caring about *anything* and just wanna have fun (tritype again).

I've also been called an 8 before, but that was when people who didn't know me that well saw me in 'that's it, I'm outta patience!'-mode
I blame that one on my sx-instinct (from the 4 sx-so profile, paraphrased: 'they sometimes can appear 8-ish, but don't have the stamina or the grounding to keep it up)

 

[Amargith]

Huh. Well what's the difference between that and 5w4?

Huh. Well what's the difference between that and 5w4?

Ime, the difference is that 4w5's live and breathe their emotions and have a penchant for collecting knowledge which they infuse with emotions (this I like, this I don't), whereas (from what I've seen), 5w4's do the opposite, they gather knowledge in order to face the world in a rather detached way, but still feel like outcasts and very individualistic in the process.

Both are fond of their freedom and independence and individualism, but the 4 goes about that by creating their own identity whereas the 5 uses 'hermitting' and knowledge to safeguard their cocoon and independence from the world.

 

[chickpea]

you should ask questions, i feel weird straight like writing a paragraph about myself.

i'm too unique and special and 4w5 for that!!!

 

[Tiltyred]

I'm a 4w5.

 

[King sns]

Perhaps I'm not the best person to say as I have a very strong 5 wing and sometimes test 5w4. I feel that I'm more of a 4w5 because 5w4s can separate themselves from their own personal drama better. 5s are less apologetic for any differences or deficiencies they possess and therefore aren't as interested in addressing them, whereas 4w5s dwell on them a great deal. While 4w5s are more likely to experience inner turmoil, we are self-reliant, introspective, students of the human condition. This makes us better at acknowledging the dark and twisted sides of ourselves, facing it and dealing with it. 5s tend to think that if they distance themselves from others, the drama will naturally disappear - they cope through avoidance. And in general 5s are more interested in the pursuit of knowledge, than the pursuit of self-enlightenment.

I hope that answers your question

Ahh, that answers my question, thank you.

I test as one sometimes and when I'm on one of my hyper kicks, I do appear as one I guess (also, it's part of my tritype: 4-9-7).
Compare me to Lady X or Agent Furrina though, to see the difference between enfp 7 and enfp 4. I'm more dramatic, less energetic and more introverted than they are.

What would you like to know? What sparked your interest in the type?


As for your question:

I decided on a 4 because I recognize the whole dramatic, self-reflecting, need for 'feeling right'-thing that 4's do. I've been called a 2, a 9, a 7 and a 4, but I become an unhealthy 2 when I'm stressed (4 turns into 2 when stressed), and I use the 9 only in large groups to keep the peace...it exhausts me though after a while (tritype theory), and the 7 when I either have excess energy to burn or when I'm passed caring about *anything* and just wanna have fun (tritype again).

I've also been called an 8 before, but that was when people who didn't know me that well saw me in 'that's it, I'm outta patience!'-mode
I blame that one on my sx-instinct (from the 4 sx-so profile, paraphrased: 'they sometimes can appear 8-ish, but don't have the stamina or the grounding to keep it up)

This is along the lines of what I'm looking for. I'm interested in 4w5's because I believe it to be the second factor in my tritype. It's less explored, and I can't find a lot of information about it.

Ime, the difference is that 4w5's live and breathe their emotions and have a penchant for collecting knowledge which they infuse with emotions (this I like, this I don't), whereas (from what I've seen), 5w4's do the opposite, they gather knowledge in order to face the world in a rather detached way, but still feel like outcasts and very individualistic in the process.

Both are fond of their freedom and independence and individualism, but the 4 goes about that by creating their own identity whereas the 5 uses 'hermitting' and knowledge to safeguard their cocoon and independence from the world.

you should ask questions, i feel weird straight like writing a paragraph about myself.

i'm too unique and special and 4w5 for that!!!

I'm a 4w5.

I'm looking for similar answers to the above. I guess if you want a straight forward question, i'd like to know what made you decide that you were a 4w5 to begin with. You could also talk about your motivations, hopes, dreams, hobbies, day to day life. It's an open ended topic. If you feel completely uncomfortable, even links would be fine. Specific stories or broad generalizations are fine. 4w5 in the second place is good, too.


Edit: From the couple of things I read, it makes 4w5's sound like really morbid mythical creatures or something. I don't experience it like that at all. I find it to bring me more to the real world, closer to the truth of things. (possibly ar result of the rest of my personality.)

 

[Amargith]

Alright ... you asked for it

I find that I doubted a long time between 9 and 4 and even got repeatedly asked why I went for 4, especially on the forums (which triggered my 9 to keep the peace). But I relate to the 4 feeling of shame. That dramatic feeling of 'nobody understands me
Also, 9's tend to avoid intense dark feelings while 4's wallow in it. Trust me, I've done my share of spelonking and can even enjoy the intense emotion of jealousy, paranoia or fear, when my mood is right. It's beautiful in its own right. From what I understand, 9's prefer not feeling to feeling dark feelings. Not me. If I feel nothing, I feel dead. Actually, I believe it to be a faith worse than death. Yeah, I know, drama-queen ftw.

I don't like conflict between people, but I do enjoy investigating contradicting feelings within myself, and fleshing out how it works. I enjoy pushing buttons and tinkering with dialing up feelings and turning them down. I enjoy indulging in fantasies (all the things 4's should avoid ) that allow me to intensify that feel. Less so these days, but I am addicted to intensely feeling. On top of that, I have a finicky taste in creativity, arts and esthetics. It has to feel *just* right, and don't ask me to explain it, it's something I cannot put into words.

What drives me is finding out who I am and how that differs from what I consider to be 'ideal' and finetuning myself to become that person, or adjusting the ideal image along the way as I gather more information.

My hobbies include dancing, singing, crafting jewelry, psychology, animal behaviorism, learning new things by reading books on *everything* (my w5), so really *anything* that either explains people's/animals drives so I can better understand myself and others or anything that allows me to express myself, and to make an impact upon the world with that. To inspire others along the way on my quest to find myself. I realize how flowery I'm sounding atm, and I hate it, but I find it hard to bring it into words. I strive to find a balance and a zen without losing that intensity I love so. I find myself enjoying pushing my limits on how much negative emotion i can take, to want to endure and conquer each emotion in the book in all its intensity. And i can tell you that even positive ones at their highest intensity are a bitch to take..but also utter bliss (infatuation anyone?).

I love people, but I find it easier to be by myself as it requires conscious effort to monitor myself and not overload them, or have them overload/trigger me. It's easier to do my own thign when nobody is around, though I do enjoy having company. So I shift between those two needs. Some people are able to take me fully as I am. Those, I treasure immensely. Most of the time though, I try and behave or isolate myself when I find myself too moody to deal with people. I also find that when I stress, I seek out (as an unhealthy 2 would, which 4 turns into when stressed) others to get reaffirmed and exchange affection with. Of course, I'm aware that this isn't exactly desirable behavior, so I try and curb it as much as I can. I also find that when I'm alone and not have to worry about impacting others, and can focus on being creative or the project I'm interested it in, I see that 1-streak coming through, which is a very satisfying feeling.

/histrionic drama queen act.

 

[Tiltyred]

The descriptions fit.
At random: I feel turned inside out sometimes, like there's normal and then there's me, the opposite. I don't care about money, only care about things in so much as they might entertain me, I don't care for the most part if anybody likes me or they don't or what they think about my hair, I am happy alone indefinitely, I almost never speak unless spoken to (at which point I'm warm and friendly but secretely mostly hoping it will be over soon), I think about everything all the time, I do what I feel because I honor my heart. If I have a hobby, it's learning more about people, but at a deep level, like, where do their ultimate motivations come from, what causes them, why are we here ... I like to ponder the inpenetrable mysteries. I like Kurt Kobain and Sylvia Plath and Anne Sexton (are you seeing a pattern here?) I don't try to be weird - I aim to be genuine - it's often interpreted as weird, I've always been gifted or special or something other than ordinary in some way. I live in my head. I want life to be beautiful but not in the Disney way -- I mean that I would like to have enough detachment to be able to appreciate every single part of it, the "good" and the "bad." My goals are all internal. I don't like to go out. I'm good to talk to if you have a problem or if you feel misunderstood, but once the problem is solved, I go back inside. If I let you in, it's a big deal. I don't answer the phone. I don't do things for the result they create or for a reward, so it's hard to motivate me. I need a small niche where I can belong and do my thing undisturbed. I'm not flashy. I'm always looking for the underpinnings and the hidden.

 

[chickpea]

i'm very much in my own head, i don't feel like a lot of people get me. i can be very laid back and detached from life, but will get very intense and obsessive about certain things, especially my relationships. when i'm upset about something i think about it constantly and analyze every aspect of it to death. i don't think i try very hard to be different, but i always have been, and i tend to rebel against things that people i dislike and don't relate to like. i've gotten increasingly more quiet over the years, because i'm either afraid of being misunderstood or i just don't think it's that relevant or important for people to know. i don't feel the need to push my values and beliefs on others, and i resent it when people do the same to me. i don't worry about my physical safety a lot, i can be reckless and fearless but then get very anxious about stupid little things like a phone call or seeing someone i don't want to. i hate looking like i don't know what i'm talking about, if i see something i know i always try to look it up myself and i get annoyed with people who are content being ignorant or ask a lot of stupid questions they could easily answer themselves. i think i'm pretty good at figuring people out, seeing through the bullshit, knowing their strengths and weaknesses. this makes me kinda scary when people get on my bad side, because i don't have a bad temper at all but i can usually find the best way to push someone's buttons or upset them (this doesn't happen a lot.) i value my independence a lot, and i definitely like my alone time, but i like having people i can relate to. i don't hurt people often or put a lot of demands on people, but i will admit to being pretty selfish and i think about my own needs before others, because i figure if i don't look out for myself who will? i'm really lazy and pretty content spending my whole day doing nothing but hanging out, reading, watching tv or movies, listening to music. i have no desire to be someone big or important, i just want to be happy and comfortable and have a few people around that care about me and vice versa.

 

[King sns]

Alright ... you asked for it

I find that I doubted a long time between 9 and 4 and even got repeatedly asked why I went for 4, especially on the forums (which triggered my 9 to keep the peace). But I relate to the 4 feeling of shame. That dramatic feeling of 'nobody understands me
Also, 9's tend to avoid intense dark feelings while 4's wallow in it. Trust me, I've done my share of spelonking and can even enjoy the intense emotion of jealousy, paranoia or fear, when my mood is right. It's beautiful in its own right. From what I understand, 9's prefer not feeling to feeling dark feelings. Not me. If I feel nothing, I feel dead. Actually, I believe it to be a faith worse than death. Yeah, I know, drama-queen ftw.

I don't like conflict between people, but I do enjoy investigating contradicting feelings within myself, and fleshing out how it works. I enjoy pushing buttons and tinkering with dialing up feelings and turning them down. I enjoy indulging in fantasies (all the things 4's should avoid ) that allow me to intensify that feel. Less so these days, but I am addicted to intensely feeling. On top of that, I have a finicky taste in creativity, arts and esthetics. It has to feel *just* right, and don't ask me to explain it, it's something I cannot put into words.

What drives me is finding out who I am and how that differs from what I consider to be 'ideal' and finetuning myself to become that person, or adjusting the ideal image along the way as I gather more information.

My hobbies include dancing, singing, crafting jewelry, psychology, animal behaviorism, learning new things by reading books on *everything* (my w5), so really *anything* that either explains people's/animals drives so I can better understand myself and others or anything that allows me to express myself, and to make an impact upon the world with that. To inspire others along the way on my quest to find myself. I realize how flowery I'm sounding atm, and I hate it, but I find it hard to bring it into words. I strive to find a balance and a zen without losing that intensity I love so. I find myself enjoying pushing my limits on how much negative emotion i can take, to want to endure and conquer each emotion in the book in all its intensity. And i can tell you that even positive ones at their highest intensity are a bitch to take..but also utter bliss (infatuation anyone?).

I love people, but I find it easier to be by myself as it requires conscious effort to monitor myself and not overload them, or have them overload/trigger me. It's easier to do my own thign when nobody is around, though I do enjoy having company. So I shift between those two needs. Some people are able to take me fully as I am. Those, I treasure immensely. Most of the time though, I try and behave or isolate myself when I find myself too moody to deal with people. I also find that when I stress, I seek out (as an unhealthy 2 would, which 4 turns into when stressed) others to get reaffirmed and exchange affection with. Of course, I'm aware that this isn't exactly desirable behavior, so I try and curb it as much as I can. I also find that when I'm alone and not have to worry about impacting others, and can focus on being creative or the project I'm interested it in, I see that 1-streak coming through, which is a very satisfying feeling.

/histrionic drama queen act.

I wouldn't call it a histrionic drama queen act. Seems kind of anti-society, though. Thank you for the in depth reply.

The descriptions fit.
At random: I feel turned inside out sometimes, like there's normal and then there's me, the opposite. I don't care about money, only care about things in so much as they might entertain me, I don't care for the most part if anybody likes me or they don't or what they think about my hair, I am happy alone indefinitely, I almost never speak unless spoken to (at which point I'm warm and friendly but secretely mostly hoping it will be over soon), I think about everything all the time, I do what I feel because I honor my heart. If I have a hobby, it's learning more about people, but at a deep level, like, where do their ultimate motivations come from, what causes them, why are we here ... I like to ponder the inpenetrable mysteries. I like Kurt Kobain and Sylvia Plath and Anne Sexton (are you seeing a pattern here?) I don't try to be weird - I aim to be genuine - it's often interpreted as weird, I've always been gifted or special or something other than ordinary in some way. I live in my head. I want life to be beautiful but not in the Disney way -- I mean that I would like to have enough detachment to be able to appreciate every single part of it, the "good" and the "bad." My goals are all internal. I don't like to go out. I'm good to talk to if you have a problem or if you feel misunderstood, but once the problem is solved, I go back inside. If I let you in, it's a big deal. I don't answer the phone. I don't do things for the result they create or for a reward, so it's hard to motivate me. I need a small niche where I can belong and do my thing undisturbed. I'm not flashy. I'm always looking for the underpinnings and the hidden.

This is interesting. What is your instinctual variant, and why not 4w3? I see a lot of INFJ weaved in here.

i'm very much in my own head, i don't feel like a lot of people get me. i can be very laid back and detached from life, but will get very intense and obsessive about certain things, especially my relationships. when i'm upset about something i think about it constantly and analyze every aspect of it to death. i don't think i try very hard to be different, but i always have been, and i tend to rebel against things that people i dislike and don't relate to like. i've gotten increasingly more quiet over the years, because i'm either afraid of being misunderstood or i just don't think it's that relevant or important for people to know. i don't feel the need to push my values and beliefs on others, and i resent it when people do the same to me. i don't worry about my physical safety a lot, i can be reckless and fearless but then get very anxious about stupid little things like a phone call or seeing someone i don't want to. i hate looking like i don't know what i'm talking about, if i see something i know i always try to look it up myself and i get annoyed with people who are content being ignorant or ask a lot of stupid questions they could easily answer themselves. i think i'm pretty good at figuring people out, seeing through the bullshit, knowing their strengths and weaknesses. this makes me kinda scary when people get on my bad side, because i don't have a bad temper at all but i can usually find the best way to push someone's buttons or upset them (this doesn't happen a lot.) i value my independence a lot, and i definitely like my alone time, but i like having people i can relate to. i don't hurt people often or put a lot of demands on people, but i will admit to being pretty selfish and i think about my own needs before others, because i figure if i don't look out for myself who will? i'm really lazy and pretty content spending my whole day doing nothing but hanging out, reading, watching tv or movies, listening to music. i have no desire to be someone big or important, i just want to be happy and comfortable and have a few people around that care about me and vice versa.

That seems like a common 4 mentality to me. Seems like the end goal is a bit different from what society thinks and "end goal" should look like. Being true to yourself is an end goal in itself.

 

[Anew Leaf]

I think I am 4w5 but I am not that knowledgable about the enneagram soo yeah. everytime i take it i get different answers so i remain unconvinced that it has scientific merit. same with the instinctual variant thingys. from reading the description of what each one is, I know I am SX/SP because that makes the most sense... but I don't really see myself in the description for what that combined means. which is possibly because the site i read about these things had glowing things to say about SO/SX and SX/SO and then basically talked about how horrible the other types are. But, I digress.

 

[King sns]

I think I am 4w5 but I am not that knowledgable about the enneagram soo yeah. everytime i take it i get different answers so i remain unconvinced that it has scientific merit. same with the instinctual variant thingys. from reading the description of what each one is, I know I am SX/SP because that makes the most sense... but I don't really see myself in the description for what that combined means. which is possibly because the site i read about these things had glowing things to say about SO/SX and SX/SO and then basically talked about how horrible the other types are. But, I digress.

Testing aside, what makes you feel that you're a 4w5?

 

[Anew Leaf]

Um... I guess since I am fairly independent and am ok with being by myself. I like intellectual pursuits. I am good at math.... or I used to be.... I like unicorns.... I like science.... I love astronomy!

 

[21%]

4w5? Me!

I feel like a 4w5 because there are two people inside me. One is very emotional, dreamy, dramatic, highly idealistic and passionate, not to mention slightly self-destructive at times; the other is analytical, calm, reserved, safety-oriented and loves to figure things out rationally. The problem is the two don't always get along. However, if they fight, the first emotional one almost always wins, but just barely -- so that makes me a 4w5 and not 5w4.

I'm older now and I feel like my 4 is settling a little bit. I think I'm moving towards 1, hopefully in a healthy way. But I'm still pretty certain my main type is still 4 and not 1, because I'm still obsessed with being unique and couldn't care less about being right

 

[Anew Leaf]

Does anyone have a good website with descriptions of these subtypes specifically? I have tried looking up 4w3 and 4w5 descriptions and I get nothing of value.

Thanks

 

[King sns]

Does anyone have a good website with descriptions of these subtypes specifically? I have tried looking up 4w3 and 4w5 descriptions and I get nothing of value.

Thanks

Someone just posted this site in a thread. I have found it very helpful. http://theenneagram.blogspot.com/2007/09/new-to-ennegram.html

(It makes people sound less like cartoon characters.. It helped me understand fours.)

 

[Anew Leaf]

Someone just posted this site in a thread. I have found it very helpful. http://theenneagram.blogspot.com/2007/09/new-to-ennegram.html

(It makes people sound less like cartoon characters.. It helped me understand fours.)

Thanks

I found this:

Healthy side of this wing brings a withdrawn, complex creativity. May be somewhat intellectual but have exceptional depth of feeling and insight. Very much their own person; original and idiosyncratic. Have a spiritual and aesthetic openness. Will find multiple levels of meaning to most events. May have a strong need and ability to pour themselves into artistic creations. Loners; can seem enigmatic and hard to read. Externally reserved and internally resonant. When they open up it can be sudden and total. When entranced or defensive, Fours with a 5 wing can easily feel alienated and depressed. Many have a sense of not belonging, of being from another planet. Can get lost in their own process, drown in their own ocean. Whiny - tend to ruminate and relive past experience. Prone to the emotion of shame. Air of sullen, withdrawn disappointment. May live within a private mythology of pain and loss. Can get deeply morbid and fall in love with death.

I can relate to a lot of what is said here, except for the bold part. I'd prefer to fall in love with a volcano instead of that. Ironicaly enough if I did fall in love with a Volcano, it would most likely result in my death.

Definitely see more of myself in wing 5 than wing 3.

So I guess the "mystery" of me is solved with a few letters: INFP, SX/SP, 4w5. Add in some stardust and you are almost there.

 

[Anew Leaf]

I also found this description in another thread *yoink!*

Type 4 with a 5 wing: Type Four individuals are intensely emotionally aware, and often retreat to their rich inner world of concepts and ideas. They are the most artistic type in the Enneagram and driven to create their own, unique identity. Type Fours value authenticity highly and express themselves whenever they can. They are one of the most individualistic types in the Enneagram. Type Fours, when in a state of growth, become principled like Type Ones. When stressed, Type Fours can become clingy like an unhealthy Type Two. You are a Type Four with a Five wing, which means that the individualist nature of a Four combines with the cerebral nature of a Five to make you one of the most creative types in the Enneagram.

Rings pretty true for me as well.

 

[King sns]

I also found this description in another thread *yoink!*



Rings pretty true for me as well.

That one's quite good. doesn't say the word, "magical" either. That makes me cringe.