[NT] NTJs...

[InvisibleJim]

And people wonder why people dont generally like INTJs. You guys come loaded with a set of very unique characteristics and a desire for controlling the world around you. The enfp told me the other day "Have fun being corrected by a three year old" as the intj never holds back. Part of being a good parent is to appreciate and laugh at the funny things your kids do, then do the best you can to be supportive of what they need to grow healthily and give the space to do so.

It is interesting how quickly kids learn to push each other's buttons though, even esoteric INTJ buttons. And enfps dont like to be controlled-unless another person has earned that right. So the enfp kid will continue to defy the INTJ kid in his funny ENFP way, just to push back on the INTJ's attempts to control him. A power dynamic.

INTJs do not have conundrums regarding fixed internal perspectives like other types. So complain all you like about INTJs questioning reality, but in truth you are forcing your internal axioms upon them and complaining when they return the favour to you in a different way.

Ji floods Pi with axioms 'this is how it should be', Je floods Pe once it is set 'this is how I choose to live, join it or be excluded'. By continually mocking the INTJs internal allowance for wiggle room you will just end up with an angry Fi-Se case that remembers what was done or wasn't done and when and knows exactly what it thinks about you and that I'm quite happy that my mother was SFJ sometimes.

But yes, Kalach is quite right: complain about NTJ boundary setting, then ask for permission from an NTJ to act within their boundaries. Could you be more glaringly internally inconsistent?

 

[Amargith]

Actually...that part I love *grin*

I'm just not embarassed to say that I *suck* at math and need all my wits about me for that one

Oro is right though...it's adorable to hear you guys rant on and on...and somehow very soothing


@jim: who's asking for permission? I'm just trying to finetune it...tailor it, to your breed, so I don't mess up what we have. I'm asking for explanation on how things work for you, so I can adjust accordingly

And hello...middle name is 'flake'. What were you expecting?

 

[Thalassa]

So this isn't a question about NTJs. It's some ridiculous question of the form, can I be meeee? What's up with asking permission to approach the world in the way you naturally do?

If all the world were to do this, not only would it be a more polite place, but very definitely closer to world piece. Why, I remember a time when the kids used to ask me, Pappy, can we play in the yard? And I'd tell em naw, and they'd squeal. Then I'd tell em go on, git out in that yard and play, but don't touch yer sister she has the plague. I liked to mess with the kids that way. For one thing it help the sister to grow up stronger, and ironically with some sexual problems, who knew that playing doctor at home was that important? Anyway, for another, it helped the kids learn boundaries. Sure, the boundaries changed often, but what of it?

And that's all I have to say about that.


Do tired ENFPs like to come home from work and be told important things in an abstract code that quite clearly relates to very important and real conditions but doesn't make clear the connection?

Sure they do. It's fun. When I were a boy we used to do it to the neighbourhood ENFP. She lived at the bottom of a well were her father had dumped one time. An aunt used to drop her some food sometimes. But we'd go over there and yell out abstract mathematics. Boy, would she squeal. Good times. Someone's not getting any, we'd call out.

SOMEONE'S NOT GETTING ANY!

I love this story. Such a perfect analogy.

Kalach winz the thread.

And yet it reminds me that life is very pain.

 

[sculpting]

LOL, welcome to the party, Kalach. That's a cute little story.

I don't mind being ranted at by an enthused INTJ about some abstract mathproblem, as long as he doesn't require me to think *with* him since my brain is already fried and tired.
So perhaps I shoudln't expect you boys to wanna do anything else but watch?

oh, how odd. you are right. it's a spectator sport mostly....hmmmm....that's interesting.

 

[ceecee]

So, I was in all seriousness wondering, if it would be considered more work if I were to draw their attention by deliberately creating chaos which they usually feel compelled to straighten out...something I very much enjoy experiencing firsthand

No, not when we are seriously occupied or busy. In fact that would piss me off to the point of withdrawing any and all pleasant activity. No predicament bondage and quiet time in a closet.

In all seriousness, I *know* how hard these guys/girls work. And as much as they enjoy being in control, I've also seen them come home, exhausted and wanting nothing more than a massage and hourlong sessions of cuddling, potentially leading to more, to recharge their batteries.

Hmmmm...that exhausted is a just let me sleep kind of thing. Even cuddling is irritating at that level.

 

[Amargith]

But when you come home from work and feel on top of the world..youd be up for it?

 

[InvisibleJim]

But when you come home from work and feel on top of the world..youd be up for it?

Do our faces look busy? Often we don't need a PC or a notepad to be working you know.

 

[Thalassa]

I don't understand - are you basically asking if you can torment a tired person, Satine? I would say in the case of most people the answer would be no, especially for introverts.

And I got told very quickly that INTJs don't like a lot of drama.

Are you being ignored or something? That's freaking tough. What to do about that...*is all big Peterbald cat ears*

 

[ceecee]

But when you come home from work and feel on top of the world..youd be up for it?

If you ask my exhausted ENFJ he would say I need to be in a coma to not be up for it. But even he knows there is a limit and when I'm busy I'm fucking busy and do not get in my way.

 

[sculpting]

INTJs do not have conundrums regarding fixed internal perspectives like other types. So complain all you like about INTJs questioning reality, but in truth you are forcing your internal axioms upon them and complaining when they return the favour to you in a different way.

Ji floods Pi with axioms 'this is how it should be', Je floods Pe once it is set 'this is how I choose to live, join it or be excluded'. By continually mocking the INTJs internal allowance for wiggle room you will just end up with an angry Fi-Se case that remembers what was done or wasn't done and when and knows exactly what it thinks about you and that I'm quite happy that my mother was SFJ sometimes.

But yes, Kalach is quite right: complain about NTJ boundary setting, then ask for permission from an NTJ to act within their boundaries. Could you be more glaringly internally inconsistent?

1. who said I was complaining? I am observing and describing. Is it funny? sure. I reserve the right to laugh at things that strike me as different from what I see. This isnt mocking-it is gentle humor

2. who said I constantly mock my child? really? I described how he and his brother interact. It's funny stuff. It's interesting. But everytime I learn something new like this, I go out of my way to try and incorporate it-to give the little guy what it is he needs growing up. I actually work my ass off to adapt to the way he learns and give him the freedom to do so. My entire goal of understanding how INTJs think has very little to do with big INTJs and everything to do with understanding what he needs and it really pisses me off that you would make assumptions about my intentions toward my child and what my child will feel for me when he grows up. You do not know me or my child and all you see are a few quotes on an internet forum, so to imply my child will hate me when he grows up is a bit over the top. I love my kids. EVERY SINGLE THING I LEARN allows me to meet his needs better.

any you seem to have missed a huge piece in the middle regarding Ji-Je. There is constant negotiation and constant respect across that boundary. Both myself and the larger INTJ set Te boundaries which are not absolute but are negotiated. Within that negotiated space we each have the freedom to explore and understand our own Fi and until we trespass upon each other's Fi space inadvertantly, there is a great deal of respect and freedom.

EDIT-also the ENFP ability to laugh and find humor even in things that are sometimes frustrating is likely part of the reason we can tolerate some INTJ mannerisms better than most-we can laugh off frustration as we accept the entire person as a whole-thus faults are no longer faults but simply characteristics of the other.

 

[FDG]

yeah i like bondage

 

[Amargith]

Reread the thread marm. I'm finetuning. That's what I said I was doing. I'm trying to figure out how to add spice to the life of these workaholics, provide some entertainment, have some fun and at the same time respect their needed quiet time when necessary. I'm trying to work out dosage, time frames, moods, needs and urges, as well as the motivations, drives and other variables that come into play. I rather know, before I tinker

 

[Amargith]

Lol, ok, that' does it, I guess I'm finding another avatar. Sigh. This was like the fifth one I tried on and the first one to actually fit within the new limits on avatars, sizewise.

 

[Thalassa]

Reread the thread marm. I'm finetuning. That's what I said I was doing. I'm trying to figure out how to add spice to the life of these workaholics, provide some entertainment, have some fun and at the same time respect their needed quiet time when necessary. I'm trying to work out dosage, time frames, moods, needs and urges, as well as the motivations, drives and other variables that come into play. I rather know, before I tinker

Well I didn't think my interpretation was that far off since the NTJs themselves were responding with things like "hell no" and "that sounds immature" and more or less "fuck off."

 

[Amargith]

Actually, some of them are, some of them aren't. I'm just polling here, and doing research. Ya mind?

 

[Thalassa]

No I was just curious at what you were actually asking.

 

[InvisibleJim]

2. who said I constantly mock my child? really? I described how he and his brother interact. It's funny stuff. It's interesting. But everytime I learn something new like this, I go out of my way to try and incorporate it-to give the little guy what it is he needs growing up. I actually work my ass off to adapt to the way he learns and give him the freedom to do so. My entire goal of understanding how INTJs think has very little to do with big INTJs and everything to do with understanding what he needs and it really pisses me off that you would make assumptions about my intentions toward my child and what my child will feel for me when he grows up. You do not know me or my child and all you see are a few quotes on an internet forum, so to imply my child will hate me when he grows up is a bit over the top. I love my kids. EVERY SINGLE THING I LEARN allows me to meet his needs better.

I should apologise for seeming as if it were a target, it was just an example of the 'Generic INTJ' and how it can react in situations that don't seem so negative to others, people were enjoying the INTJ maths.

However: you did state that

The other way to piss off the baby intj is to laugh at one of his carefully formulated ideas. He will walk up with very seriously considered ideas and then state his conclusion. Because he is context shifting he mixes all his categories up so the conclusion can be hysterical. If you laugh at him, he becomes EXTREMELY irate and petulant and stomps off so I had to learn to listen very seriously and give him feedback.

I was just explaining how this causes the INTJ to force those external controls on their environment when they feel under stress and attacked. This 'mocking' is the way that Se inferior can see the world, especially for a very young INxJ, where sensing as a function is moved into the 'anger/nasty/do not want' zone. I'm didn't say anything else, nor make presumptions you did not supply to me. This made me frown.

All I was explaining was I am sometimes happy that my xSFJ mum was quite happy to respect my boundaries and to make sure others wouldn't push on them for mere amusement, also my brother was an IxTJ so we get along swimmingly. Is it wrong for an INTJ to have a positive opinion?

 

[Amargith]

*smiles* They're children, Jim. They're bound to be immature in their interaction with each other, though granted, it is advisable to make sure the introvert gets enough time to do his thing, especially as the extravert at this point probably doesn't get that need yet. At the same time...siblings tend to be this way, whatever their type. I'm pretty sure O was just amused at the dynamic

 

[Amargith]

No I was just curious at what you were actually asking.

I'm not sure yet, that's what I'm finetuning. Can't put my finger on it yet.

Either way, this thread kinda took a nose dive. For those that part took and were willing to indulge my curiosity, thanks. You've given me some material to mull over

 

[sculpting]

I was just explaining how this causes the INTJ to force those external controls on their environment when they feel under stress and attacked. This 'mocking' is the way that Se inferior can see the world, especially for a very young INxJ, where sensing as a function is moved into the 'anger/nasty/do not want' zone. I'm didn't say anything else, nor make presumptions you did not supply to me.

All I was explaining was I am sometimes happy that my xSFJ mum was quite happy to respect my boundaries and to make sure others wouldn't push on them for mere amusement, also my brother was an IxTJ so we get along swimmingly. Is it wrong for an INTJ to have a positive opinion?

oh, sorry, it came across more as global condemnation. Not really upset, just a bit defensive, my apologies for the raised hackles and emo-tweak.

The part about Se is actually very enlightening. To clarify-I laughed his idea one time-when I saw how badly he responded i felt really terrible, so now I try really hard to not laugh at all and to be very serious and give him corrections or just listen even if it is silly. I smile on the inside, but the big INTJ said being taken serious is very important so I try and do so to the little one. He gives me little mini lectures about the topics he knows about-stars and clouds and planets and stuff.

Did your mom being an Fe user frustrate you at all? My little one already can be very Te and direct. Rather than make him "speak nicely" I try and let him speak naturally, expecting "nice" to be a skill he picks up later. He isnt rude-but he is very Te at times, which many would interpret as rude. I suppose I would assume that being Te would drive you to control your world in a different way from your mom-thus potentially create conflict. A different sort of boundary conflict.

Satine has a point about the enfp teen. Fi-not for use on siblings it appears.