Dear Fe User,

[JoSunshine]

I always have the feeling like I'm talking to people raised by wolves when it's an Fi/Fe discussion. Here's what I think: There are certain social conventions that you learn, growing up, hopefully, and these are a symbol language. We have these conventions of behavior so we can understand each other beyond our own individual peculiarities. So if someone is sick, perhaps you send flowers, or you visit and bring soup, or you send a card. Any of those things is a gesture expressing good will. It boggles my mind that someone's gesture toward another person's good would be spurned because it's not exactly what was wanted. IT'S THE THOUGHT THAT COUNTS.

The idea is that unless someone else is your intimate, they are not expected to know what you as an individual might prefer. This is where, after you get to know the person, you gently indicate that your appreciation for chicken soup is somewhat limited and actually you're a vegan, and you both laugh, and the next time you're sick, they send flowers instead.

Or is this the kind of thing you're even talking about? (What ARE you talking about, specifically?)

That's not what I am talking about I'm talking about when Fe pushes to get someone to not wear, drive or say something because "it's embarrassing". Or when an Fe user throws someone a party even though the person doesn't want it because "They'll have fun, they just don't know it yet!". Or when they/we try tell people how they "should" live because it's "better" when they are content with their lives. I see it as a listening problem...because we think we know what is best for people.

Anyone who would get mad at someone for sending flowers to the hospital is an asshole...unless they expressly told the person not to send flowers because they hate flowers and the person sent them anyway "to brighten things up"...then the person sending the flowers is an unintentional asshole.

 

[Glycerine]

AMEN, tilty!

 

[Tiltyred]

Now you're talking about my mother and I understand completely. Thanks.

 

[Jaguar]

Raised by wolves. Classic!

 

[highlander]

Anyone who would get mad at someone for sending flowers to the hospital is an asshole...unless they expressly told the person not to send flowers because they hate flowers and the person sent them anyway "to brighten things up"...then the person sending the flowers is an unintentional asshole.

Not to nitpick but maybe they're allergic to flowers and the person sending them the flowers knew that and they also knew what the person really wanted is that person to visit them.

 

[sleuthiness]

nfps (particularly mobilized socionics iee/iei variants) from my experience, compared to the average Fe user, are capable of being exponentially arrogant, domineering, blathering, dithering over precious memories using excruciatingly drawn-out monologue vessels. Probably all been said before.

Dick blanket sausage.

 

[Thalassa]

Not to nitpick but maybe they're allergic to flowers and the person sending them the flowers knew that and they also knew what the person really wanted is that person to visit them.

Criticizing someone's kindness just seems weird to me, though, unless the flower-sending person KNEW FOR SURE the sick person was allergic or would rather have a visit.

It's like telling someone "Happy Thanksgiving" then realizing you annoyed them after the fact, but why get annoyed with someone who didn't mean any harm and only wanted to be nice?

I remember my grandfather's wife telling me when I was a little girl not to pretend to be happy if my grandfather got me a present I didn't really like. I still think she's a bitch. Of course, then again, there are other reasons for that.

 

[Tiltyred]

Yeah. I used to be upset with my mother for wanting me to be a cheerleader. She was a cheerleader, and homecoming queen. She enjoyed it. She thought I would enjoy it. She meant well. It hurt my feelings because I felt like she didn't know me at all. But then I grew up and realized the important part is that she meant well.

Giving someone what you know they are allergic to and doing the opposite of what you know they really want you to do does not fall under anything MBTI. That's plain passive-aggressive right there. Maybe some types are more prone than others, but I don't think it has anything to do with Fe, does it?

 

[JoSunshine]

Not to nitpick but maybe they're allergic to flowers and the person sending them the flowers knew that and they also knew what the person really wanted is that person to visit them.

Then there is nothing unintentional about that asshole

 

[Thalassa]

Then there is nothing unintentional about that asshole

Oh it was a joke. I totally missed that.

Excuse my stupidity, Highlander.

 

[Salomé]

Fe didn't make Oberon leave, Oberon made Oberon leave.

Maybe it was tertiary temptation?

Fe, Fi, Foe bollocks. Why don't people just say what they mean instead of all this function-deflection?

 

[Ginkgo]

Maybe it was tertiary temptation?

Fe, Fi, Foe bollocks. Why don't people just say what they mean instead of all this function-deflection?

:moonwalk:

 

[highlander]

Fe, Fi, Foe bollocks. Why don't people just say what they mean instead of all this function-deflection?

It's a typology forum. There is a significant difference in perspective by people who prefer one function over the other. I finally get why there is so much Fe vs Fi discussion. It confused me for a long time.

One reason that people are indirect in their communication is that they are looking to influence another's point of view and it is often more effective in accomplishing that purpose.

 

[Salomé]

One reason that people are indirect in their communication is that they are looking to influence another's point of view and it is often more effective in accomplishing that purpose.

That sounds like Fe-reasoning.

 

[highlander]

That sounds like Fe-reasoning.

I think you are right.

 

[Kalach]

I always have the feeling like I'm talking to people raised by wolves when it's an Fi/Fe discussion. Here's what I think: There are certain social conventions that you learn, growing up, hopefully, and these are a symbol language. We have these conventions of behavior so we can understand each other beyond our own individual peculiarities.

"We", kemosabe?

The fact that a group's norms and values are a certain way does not mean those are right.

Actually, since Fe is utilitarian, in the absence of group norms and values, there isn't anything else. If standardised signs and symbols are all those poor saps have to go on precious currency in emotional exchange, then right or wrong there isn't any other way humanity demands it. How can you be an Fe user human otherwise?

Isn't it grand that introverted functions exists alongside these tiresome externally validated judgment makers? They allow some kind of balancing act where meaning and substance of those external signs can be reinvented by actual people. And judged. Like when Te/Fi people ask themselves if they're being too utilitarian and hurting otherwise valuable interests, Fe/Ti people can ask themselves if they're not sometimes investing in false expressions.

Such a pity though that functions are ordered. Every person always makes one set of priorities formally more important than another, and the other set sits back being both weaker and stronger, more reactive and less conscious.


Pffft. Probably shouldn't say this stuff too loud, people'll start in on Te next.


Dear Te user,

just as an aside, so hot! No you! Pshaw, you the man.

But seriously, all that deciding stuff? It's gotta stop. K?

Yeah, I know, right? Like that's going to happen. But thank the lord we don't have to just go by group norms, right? Gah, imagine that. Suckers.

 

[OrangeAppled]

This is something I used to be terribly guilty of doing...and have to constantly remind myself NOT to do it now...although I am sure I sometimes fail. I walk amongst Fe users and it is indeed a common thread that I have observed. It's a really unappealing quality However, I can say that I believe the intentions to always be good...just at times misguided. It's the flip side of what is usually a good quality (among healthy Fe users).

I believe the intentions are good also, and that it often does lead to good, and that goes a looong way with me, as far as patience goes. I suppose being aware of it can go a long way also, especially when someone informs you something is not helpful....they're not just being unappreciative. I wish more Fe dom/aux types were aware of it, IRL.

 

[entropie]

Well, this a difficult topic for me. I've come to get to know that there is a real difference between Fe and Fi users just lately in my life thru my girlfriend. She is an infp and sometimes it looks to me when we move in a public situation as if she's looking for guidance in my behaviour. She's stubborn and has her own ways of doing things, I greatly like her attitude it makes me smile and happy every time and if we are with friends, we generally are the odd couple cause we behave completly differently from what is expected. She does her thingsa because she is just like that and I do my things because I know I upset other people with it and together we do our own thing. It works quite well because we both give a shit if we follow any things which are subconciously expected from us.

Then again when we were at a business meeting the other day, with all those important people and we were just right in the middle, I noticed she's looking a great amount of time to how I am doing things. Well and I feel not very secure in the things I do aswell. But I noticed that she changed the way she talks (did put much more effort in using proper language) and the way she behaved. This of course good and I greatly appreciate she did that for me, we tho as quickly as possible got out from this boring party but it was the first time I noticed this difference between us.

In me, I noticed early in life, is the natural ability to just get along in social situations. I know all the tricks and what people want from you, I am not quite secure using them yet, but I know them. When I met the mum of my girlfriend, who is esfj, I immediantly had some sympathy with her. It sometimes feel, I can communicate better with her mum than my girlfriend can and of course this's all very dangerous.

The good thing is, we hadnt had any problems due to this, my girlfriends dad is infp and she was since she was born always more a dad person. So it's ok if I side with her mum sometimes just to mock her. Deep down from my innermost values, I stand 1000% with her and if my girl is overcomplicating a thing emotionally from my PoV, I listen to her and respect her. I'ld never tell her listen to what your mom said. She does talk to me in great deatil about what she feels and I think that's a gift you shouldnt give away when infps do that.

I admit sometimes I do not listen to everything she tells me, but that's because I am an asshole not because I am aux Fe .

I do not know, there is infact this difference you described high, I can sign this and it's infact a thing Fe users should be aware of. I am generally very receptive to the crazy things my girl likes to do that's the reason why I've choosen her because she can make me smile and she can make me happy, while hanging out in a pure Fe round it would be more like mutual head nodding and eventually would become kinda depressive or silent. My girl has an unique way to see the world thru her heart and it makes my heart bloom if she lets me participate.

I guess my Fe is just enough to get us safely thru the supermarket without an incident, tho if I have a bad time and my short temper is awake this wont be the case aswell .

Well I guess my girl and me will never blend in

 

[sculpting]

Are you saying that Fi is less certain that it's right, because it's more individualistic? I'm just unsure what the perception of arrogance is tied to. Or are you saying it comes off as arrogant some other way that's unconnected to its message?

Fi will be feel like "absolute right" but seems to come hand in hand with a live and let live mentality. It is much less likely to impose an individual value on others. OA did a very nice job describing this in her post-but as Marm also noted-I suspect enfps will have a tendency to stand up and share Fi values more than INFPs-but only if the Fi value is worthy. For me it has to be a really good one to try and inflict it on others.

You seemed to be implying here that people (not sure if everyone or just Fe-people) are agreeing just to be agreeable, or perhaps because of the Fe-polite way it was said, or because they think everyone else agrees...even if they would ordinarily disagree with that perspective. Am I understanding somewhat correctly or way off-base here?

Pardon me Random as I rant just a bit...^^This shit kills me. literally on a daily basis. I have watched million dollar projects bomb due to the need for agreeability. If you stand up and point out flaws, you are not invited to future meetings as you are being "pessimistic". After a few months, the whole project is being run in these land of miracles where cotton candy blooms from the trees and little dwarfs go swim in rivers of chocolate. Everybody is soooo nice and the whole project is doomed to fail. It is like the goal of the group is to be happy and harmonious and continue to exist from day to day rather than actually produce a product. When you give them info on logistical failures you hear "That's really not acceptable. I told CEO it would be finished by December. I need you to go finish it now." like you havent been killing yourself to get it done already. A built in assumption that I would try and defer my work onto others rather than the real answer which is take on as much work as I can possible bear. If other external groups say "X cant be done because we dont have Y materials" the answer? "Well that isnt acceptable, they just need to do the work" never fucking understanding what the work is, why the work is being done, being oblivious of timelines, not even posessing the basic mental capability to understand the fucking timelines.

Based on the theoretical definitions it would be impossible to use only Fi or Fe.

I dont use Fe. I actually have enormous respect for your insight and have learned a great deal from your posts Annwn, as you exhibit a beautiful soul, but most often I note that it is Fe users who claim to be able to use both Fe and Fi-leading me again to suggest the Fe user is mistaking their internal Fe mindset for something more universal. I have seen two INFPs who might use Fe-but when they do it can be a bit catty.

Neither is good or bad, right or wrong, it's just that, yes, in the end whatever way ends up fulfilling the needs of the greatest number of people (greatest number of individual opinions) will tend to 'win'.

But is the goal to meet the needs of the people in the immediate moment or is the goal to implement a long term change that will result in better circumstances for all by implementing the most robust idea? Fe often chooses short term harmony by sending the "rude" Te users packing. The result is that they deliver a final result that is flawed logistically. By not allowing the direct honest critique that would yield a better design, an inferior result is achieved and in the end the company goes out of business. The averaged opinion of the majority WILL be inferior to the best idea. The best idea is at the top of the gaussian curve-it is an outlier. To gain adoption and end up being presented for approval by the group, it has to migrate through a bunch of negotiation and at each round, it is minimized.

(sorry this is totally a non Fe containing post....it has been an Fe day and I am drinking at 3 pm...)

 

[sculpting]

Fe, Fi, Foe bollocks. Why don't people just say what they mean instead of all this function-deflection?

Because if they say what they mean, it promptly becomes "Well that isnt quite right because it's obvious that WE all know these obvious things. Everybody knows these things. It's common sense. Oh, you dont know these things? Oh you choose to disagree? well, you are obviously defective because if you werent broken, this would all make sense to you..."

I am not WE. Or what he said:

"We", kemosabe?

Actually, since Fe is utilitarian, in the absence of group norms and values, there isn't anything else. If standardised signs and symbols are all those poor saps have to go on precious currency in emotional exchange, then right or wrong there isn't any other way humanity demands it. How can you be an Fe user human otherwise?