Uumlau answers your questions about Fi

[uumlau]

You are ascribing the interpretation of an inferior experience; I contend it is merely different, but I don't feel threatened in the least. Just because I use a passionate metaphor does not mean I am out to "bust his chops".

(uumlau - if you want me to prune the off-topic stuff, just let me know.)

There is no reason to prune.

I've got this big bad evil horn on my head, should things get too rough.

uumlau has been doing fabulous so far fielding what I'm pitching.

Thanks, PB.

To be fair, I did think the same thing that Peacebaby mentioned. Though, I also have to admit that PB went about it a bit more zealous than I would've, especially also coz I know Uumlau..and his tertiary Fi is pretty damn good.

PB, I think that if you were to make that thread on Te, it would probably get ridiculed and filled with NT jokes...but that's just an educated guess.

However, I do look forward on seeing a thread on Fi from the pov of the tertiary user, it'll be interesting to compare notes. *subscribes*

Thanks, Satine.

I think one of the main reasons I have to contribute to overall Fi understanding is that unlike an Fi dom, I started off ignoring it as best I could. The reason I have a "map to Fi" is that I had to go and find it again. I'd like to share that map with others who are looking for the same thing. I can understand your feelings and PB's feelings on the matter: a lot of what I say will "sound wrong" because of where I'm coming from. You might need to turn the map upside down, or perhaps I need to put a "You are here" on the part of the map where a truly advanced Fi user would be (or perhaps you and PB and other Fi doms can help put it there for me ).

The point of this is to share knowledge and understanding of Fi. If we put all of our "maps" together, we all win.

OK, you're going to prune off-topic (read PB's posts) out of an Fi thread?

Are you concerned that uumlau can't handle it? Of course he can. He's utterly capable but his descriptors of Fi can be as challenged as any other assumption ...

I've told Night to do no pruning.

INFP input is VERY WELCOME. Is that clear, everyone?

(as is xNFP input and, well, XXXX input, OK?! *sigh*)

I do intend to keep an eye on tangents, though. On that note, Sim, if you'd care to discuss your understanding of Fe, I'm sure Night would be happy to branch your comments into your own thread.

In this thread, Fi is the primary topic, and the other functions should generally just be mentioned in passing or to make a point about Fi. I will ask any nascent Fi/Fe debates to be pruned or put into a separate thread.

OK, I'm ready for more questions or challenges. Let's hear those Fi ideas.

 

[Jaguar]

This is a very strange thread.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Haha. Oh, the irony.

Night, it's not irony, it's a metaphor. I am using descriptive, metaphorical, symbolic language to address uumlau because I know he will "get it". (And so does every Fi user I suspect.) I am sorry you don't receive the message in the way I intend it. I have an INTP brother so I respectfully appreciate why you don't.

If you want to learn more about Fi in general, as my INTP brother now does at the tender age of 41, I welcome you with open arms.

And I send you a you big instigator. Sit back and enjoy the ride. Or not, it's your choice. But I hope you stick around despite your cynicism.

Yeah, it's clear you're in here to learn. . .

I am not in this thread to learn. I am here to critique and challenge and enjoy and toss around some ideas and concepts and have them challenged too. Perhaps I will learn something. That wasn't my intent upon entering the thread though.

If you want to see Fi through the Ni / Te lens, of course uumlau is the best to answer such queries. There's a great deal of value in examining it so.

And I hope LOTS of people ask questions!

But ice cream comes in many flavors. Mine is a just different flavor. I was serving some full-on Fi ... it can be very tasty my friend.

 

[uumlau]

You just saw one

PB is basically standing up for what she believes is right and true and considers it important that the nuances she stressed are noted by those who read this stuff, to make sure the context of what is being taught here is correct.

What's really cool about that is it's exactly parallel to an INTP wanting to make sure Ti-logic is all perfectly correct.

I'll admit my approach to Fi is, um, unrefined, but that's mostly because I'm not "there" yet. I am, however, a lot closer than some other people are, and sometimes it helps to have someone to blaze the trail. Sometimes the "unrefined" version is more clear to those who don't understand enough to see how the nuances matter.

 

[heart]

I tend to let Te "out to play" in my forum life. I'd shudder to think what my life would be like if I did that IRL.

For me, Fi is the parent.

Seems like you're going beyond simply "busting his chops".

I'm confused by your behavior.

The words "bust his chops" with PB's name makes me .

I thought she raised a valid point and was respectful about it.

 

[uumlau]

I tend to let Te "out to play" in my forum life. I'd shudder to think what my life would be like if I did that IRL.

For me, Fi is the parent.

I'd like to hear a more detailed description of this, heart.

 

[miss fortune]

You just saw one

PB is basically standing up for what she believes is right and true and considers it important that the nuances she stressed are noted by those who read this stuff, to make sure the context of what is being taught here is correct.

I actually find the difference between Fe and Fi standing up for their beleifs to be entertaining, because both can be pretty combative but Fe users seem to argue in broader strokes in a way...

PB's stressing of specific notes to make sure that the context is correct is almost focusing in on the details of the offense and her corrections of it. My sis is an ENFJ and I've NEVER seen her get that specific in her "smiting of the evildoers"- she tends to be more interested in taking offense to overarching principles and arguing on a global scale instead The looking at things on a micro vs macro level is kind of an interesting concept of how Fi works versus Fe (I understand Fe much better!)

Did I get the point?

 

[miss fortune]

I'd like to hear a more detailed description of this, heart.

ever read a political thread in which heart was a participant?

 

[heart]

ever read a political thread in which heart was a participant?

Yeah, see I thought it didn't take any explaination whatsoever.

Well, that's all the devestating self-honesty I am up for right now so...

 

[Amargith]

I actually find the difference between Fe and Fi standing up for their beleifs to be entertaining, because both can be pretty combative but Fe users seem to argue in broader strokes in a way...

PB's stressing of specific notes to make sure that the context is correct is almost focusing in on the details of the offense and her corrections of it. My sis is an ENFJ and I've NEVER seen her get that specific in her "smiting of the evildoers"- she tends to be more interested in taking offense to overarching principles and arguing on a global scale instead The looking at things on a micro vs macro level is kind of an interesting concept of how Fi works versus Fe (I understand Fe much better!)

Did I get the point?

The devil's in the details
So, in a way, yes

You're right, Fe does go over things in broader strokes, to have a workable model that doesn't take that long to figure out. A general practical way of how the world works, though still plenty detailed in Fe-doms. Fe also seems to work more with the 'this is right' and 'this is wrong' thing than Fi does (exceptions do exists, such as the corevalues, see below). Sure, there is a grayscale, but to be efficient socially, Fe is way more willing to judge, in order to get things moving and get to the part where you can fix it and smoothing things out.

Fi on the other hand is all about nuances. The grayscale gets dragged out even more. Every piece is a precise and vital piece of the puzzle. Right and wrong is therefore very much dependent on the context, and ultimately often irrelevant. It's about understanding the situation, and the proper context to perceive it in, in order to gain a deeper knowledge, a blueprints as to how something works. It's like a work of art really. Certainly not practical, forever slow and nitpicky, but oh so beautiful when done just right

The exception I am talking about, is often more clearly viewed in younger enfps. Certain pristine, pure values are upheld, and those will be defended vehemently. They're like axioms in math. Truths to be upheld. With age and experience, you can still redefine them, add a grayscale, but it takes a lot of insight and wisdom to do so without corrupting them. Fi either finds right and wrong irrelevant or..in the other extreme, Fi dictates there is no other way to do it. When that rears its head..you've hit upon one of those sacred values. Back away slowely and nobody will get hurt

 

[uumlau]

(So... I talk about Fi "wanting" things here... clearly it's not separate entity, and it would be more accurate to say that "Fi tends towards a perspective that tends to value..." but life is too short and I'm verbose enough as it is.)

Your description is interesting since I experience my own Fi as, to a large degree, assigning good/bad, congruent/incongruent, please/displeasing values to things. It is extremely exacting in its own idealistic way, although its metrics are entirely different than Te's.

I think that Fi, like Ti, wants to stay true to the essence of things. It seeks to fine tune understanding and bring parts of the self into harmony. It definitely emphasis the importance of harmony of values and feeling in a way that Te does not.

So, in one sense I can totally see the "It's OK" and "forgiving" attitudes in one side of Fi. It definitely leaves a lot of room for self-determination and individual agency in a way that Te doesn't always. Fi wants to harmonize the outside world to itself when it can. In additional, there is a sort of emotional vulnerability that is characteristic of Fi... you let the outside world in in order to understand it and yourself.

But, conversely, it can be extremely judgmental when it feels its turf is intruded upon. It's extremely territorial about a small territory (at least for an INFP), but fairly accepting about anything beyond that territory. So, while there is acceptance in aspects of Fi, Judging that which clashes with one's values is Fi, too.

That's not to say I know what the experience of tertiary (or inferior) Fi is or isn't.

Yes, Fi is very judgmental. It is a judging function, after all. However, if you try to understand Fi matters with a pre-assigned set of values, you will get confused. You have to drop the assumptions and look at it raw. What is happening is that you are building your own framework based on your own observations. It then develops into its own set of values that does not necessarily align with values you learned before.

I should also note that the Tao is a very particular and peculiar approach, that I think produces a "less judgmental" set of Fi-values than most other approaches. Personally, I don't find the complete divestment from oneself of good/evil values to be useful: some things need to be cataloged as being "intrinsically very bad ideas". However, a lot of standards of good/bad are entirely arbitrary, and it's helpful to drop them and figure out where you stand on your own.

 

[miss fortune]

The devil's in the details
So, in a way, yes

You're right, Fe does go over things in broader strokes, to have a workable model that doesn't take that long to figure out. A general practical way of how the world works, though still plenty detailed in Fe-doms. Fe also seems to work more with the 'this is right' and 'this is wrong' thing than Fi does (exceptions do exists, such as the corevalues, see below). Sure, there is a grayscale, but to be efficient socially, Fe is way more willing to judge, in order to get things moving and get to the part where you can fix it and smoothing things out.

Fi on the other hand is all about nuances. The grayscale gets dragged out even more. Every piece is a precise and vital piece of the puzzle. Right and wrong is therefore very much dependent on the context, and ultimately often irrelevant. It's about understanding the situation, and the proper context to perceive it in, in order to gain a deeper knowledge, a blueprints as to how something works. It's like a work of art really. Certainly not practical, forever slow and nitpicky, but oh so beautiful when done just right

The exception I am talking about, is often more clearly viewed in younger enfps. Certain pristine, pure values are upheld, and those will be defended vehemently. They're like axioms in math. Truths to be upheld. With age and experience, you can still redefine them, add a grayscale, but it takes a lot of insight and wisdom to do so without corrupting them. Fi either finds right and wrong irrelevant or..in the other extreme, Fi dictates there is no other way to do it. When that rears its head..you've hit upon one of those sacred values. Back away slowely and nobody will get hurt

And you hit on the most terrifying thing about Fi people there- their tendancy to suddenly lash out like an angry snake when you accidentally tread on their core values... it can be startling and confusing to the rest of us (especially for a clumsy footed ExTP ) It's like seeing a nice smooth pane of glass shatter into pointy shards right in front of you- going from calm to prickly

So it's like the difference between a Renoir and a Gaugin in a way... one detailed and meticulous though in less dramatic shades, while the other is loosely done in broad, brightly colored strokes.

Fe is the moral judge, jury and exocutioner while Fi is the moral legal scholar, focusing on the details of the emotion and argument as opposed to quickly making an emotional decision and executing it... it seems like an almost foreign concept to me in a way unless I relate it to Ti, which uumlau suggested before (not in the thread)- wanting to understand the details, building blocks and underpinnings of a concept or an idea instead of executing sudden logic based decisions

*wonders if she's still clueless*

 

[Amargith]

Sounds pretty spot on

Tip: The snake usually warns by using its rattle first (unless you were unfortunate enough to be the 50th person that day to step on their tail). Back away when you hear the rattles and put a leash on your curiosity. Ask questions from outside the personal space circle and proceed really really slowly

And try to understand..it would be like taking away the basis on which your logic is build, for instance insisting that gravity doesn't exist and laughing at you for believing it does, when you threaten those values. Do not touch the axioms

 

[uumlau]

And you hit on the most terrifying thing about Fi people there- their tendancy to suddenly lash out like an angry snake when you accidentally tread on their core values... it can be startling and confusing to the rest of us (especially for a clumsy footed ExTP ) It's like seeing a nice smooth pane of glass shatter into pointy shards right in front of you- going from calm to prickly

So it's like the difference between a Renoir and a Gaugin in a way... one detailed and meticulous though in less dramatic shades, while the other is loosely done in broad, brightly colored strokes.

Fe is the moral judge, jury and exocutioner while Fi is the moral legal scholar, focusing on the details of the emotion and argument as opposed to quickly making an emotional decision and executing it... it seems like an almost foreign concept to me in a way unless I relate it to Ti, which uumlau suggested before (not in the thread)- wanting to understand the details, building blocks and underpinnings of a concept or an idea instead of executing sudden logic based decisions

*wonders if she's still clueless*

No, not clueless.

With respect to "Fi lashing out", that is another Fi lesson: how to deal with other people crossing one's own core values. It is possible, in most cases, to gently rebuke people who violate one's Fi axioms/principles.

Recall that not all Fi principles are necessarily goodness and light (hence my evil unicorn avatar). One might erroneously (or perhaps by very conscious choice, though that's a different matter) a very evil/dark/wrong value, that causes one to lash out for poor reasons. Any axioms that seem to be causing one to do bad things in real life need to be reevaluated, and perhaps relearned or discarded. This is the same process that is involved in developing one's Fi in the first place. The learning never ends.

 

[uumlau]

And try to understand..it would be like taking away the basis on which your logic is build, for instance insisting that gravity doesn't exist and laughing at you for believing it does, when you threaten those values. Do not touch the axioms

What if one is insisting that the world is flat?

Cannot some Fi axioms can be wrong or need fine tuning?

 

[Amargith]

What if one is insisting that the world is flat?

Cannot some Fi axioms can be wrong or need fine tuning?

Oh most definitely, but that's something that's very hard to change unless the Fi-user is open to that debate and you ahve someone who is very *very* diplomatic trying to explain it to them. Most discover it over time, I think.

Ime, it's usually emotional baggage/trauma that causes a certain value to surface. Often, the value has merit, but has been completely twarthed and taken to the extreme as a reaction to the pain that was experienced. Like an allergy almost..or a malfunctioning gun that goes off at the slightest touch. It takes time to build up resistence against that allergy and disable the sensitive trigger on the gun.

I was merely trying to give Whatever a way to deal with coming across those rattlers, hence i didn't elaborate


Edit: after some pondering, I wanted to add that...my Fi for instance for a long time had( and sometimes still does) issues with regulating intensity. Because Fi-users tend to experience things so intensely and they aren't always aware others do not, it can create an overdramatic effect on others, and the negative backlash of that can increase the hypersensitivity even more (how can they not understand me!??), causing a negative loop. This in turn can lead to (intense) disillusionment, loss of faith in the world, and bring out the more dark gloomy 'faux' Fi values like 'I hate people', 'People need to die', 'There's no point to living this life', etc. I call them 'faux' because I believe most Fi-users to adhere to them out of protection of their vulnerable core, to keep them from hurting again, instead of those values representing who they truly are.

It took me quite a while to learn how to 'tone' it down without being inauthentic (and it still costs me a lot of effort to this day) in order to make it palatable to others.

 

[miss fortune]

Sounds pretty spot on

Tip: The snake usually warns by using its rattle first (unless you were unfortunate enough to be the 50th person that day to step on their tail). Back away when you hear the rattles and put a leash on your curiosity. Ask questions from outside the personal space circle and proceed really really slowly

And try to understand..it would be like taking away the basis on which your logic is build, for instance insisting that gravity doesn't exist and laughing at you for believing it does, when you threaten those values. Do not touch the axioms

I think that a lot of that comes from the Ti-Fe v Te-Fi manners of discussing things as to why an ExTP might not pick up on the signals in some cases... we'll just be joking about something and assume that the Fi person is joking as well, completely missing out on the rattle

though I remember becoming quite annoyed when my aunt insisted that obviously north was up because pictures from space showed it that way even though I logically explained that she was wrong :steam: NOT... RIGHT... :steam:

I refused to speak to her for a week

No, not clueless.

With respect to "Fi lashing out", that is another Fi lesson: how to deal with other people crossing one's own core values. It is possible, in most cases, to gently rebuke people who violate one's Fi axioms/principles.

Recall that not all Fi principles are necessarily goodness and light (hence my evil unicorn avatar). One might erroneously (or perhaps by very conscious choice, though that's a different matter) a very evil/dark/wrong value, that causes one to lash out for poor reasons. Any axioms that seem to be causing one to do bad things in real life need to be reevaluated, and perhaps relearned or discarded. This is the same process that is involved in developing one's Fi in the first place. The learning never ends.

so people who "wrongly" cross a Fi's core values are like an "obtuse idiot" is to a Ti person

 

[uumlau]

Edit: after some pondering, I wanted to add that...my Fi for instance for a long time had( and sometimes still does) issues with regulating intensity. Because Fi-users tend to experience things so intensely and they aren't always aware others do not, it can create an overdramatic effect on others, and the negative backlash of that can increase the hypersensitivity even more (how can they not understand me!??), causing a negative loop. This in turn can lead to (intense) disillusionment, loss of faith in the world, and bring out the more dark gloomy 'faux' Fi values like 'I hate people', 'People need to die', 'There's no point to living this life', etc. I call them 'faux' because I believe most Fi-users to adhere to them out of protection of their vulnerable core, to keep them from hurting again, instead of those values representing who they truly are.

Very helpful thoughts, which inspire a slightly different idea ...

Perhaps the whole "unicorns and bunnies and kittehs and hearts and flowers" stereotype of Fi users is a similar "faux Fi value?" That the difficult part is actually coming up with real Fi values?

It took me quite a while to learn how to 'tone' it down without being inauthentic (and it still costs me a lot of effort to this day) in order to make it palatable to others.

I think it's still rather strong for INTJs, as well. The difference is that rather than using faux values or toning it down, we just shut it off (more or less, with predictably bad results). All different defenses for the same Fi issues.

 

[sculpting]

Perhaps the whole "unicorns and bunnies and kittehs and hearts and flowers" stereotype of Fi users is a similar "faux Fi value?" That the difficult part is actually coming up with real Fi values?

Nary a unicorn did I long for (well not counting when I was five and wanted to actually be a unicorn)-until I came to type C. Then it was fun to stumble into the stereotype. But my user name then-Happy puppy, ah, well that was from day one. When not an incinerating bitch or hyperanalytical ENTP groupie, I am like a little kid, galloping through life. A happy puppy with big, stupid, hopeful eyes, just wanting to play, love and be loved, full of silly.

Analytically:
Does the unicorn stereotype ring true for infps or just enfps? Seems more like enfps-but please correct if I have remembered incorrectly.

Perhaps the stereotype of the unicorn is closer to the Jungian child archetype? The unicorns/bunnies/rainbows are all symbolic of innocence, a niave understanding of the world, an acceptance of everything in it with open love and utter acceptance. A lack of understanding of malice almost.

A real question:
What are Fi values? Can you list some concrete examples of Fi values?

 

[William K]

Perhaps the stereotype of the unicorn is closer to the Jungian child archetype? The unicorns/bunnies/rainbows are all symbolic of innocence, a niave understanding of the world, an acceptance of everything in it with open love and utter acceptance. A lack of understanding of malice almost.

I don't really see a unicorn as symbolic for innocence. Perhaps I'm more used to it from an AD&D point of view

"Unicorns exist to protect forests from intelligent creatures. They dwell deep within their forests, and shun most creatures, only conferring with feys such as pixies, dryads, and sprites. They will show themselves to save their forests, however. Unicorns are strongly magical creatures, with most of their abilities coming from their horn. They can live up to 1000 years, and show effects of aging only weeks before death. They are able to sense evil nearby, and radiate an aura which protects them from most evil spells. The touch of their horn can both heal wounds and cure poison. Also, once a day, a unicorn can teleport to anywhere in its forest home (although they cannot teleport in from outside the forest). Unicorns attack by impaling foes on their horns, or with their hooves."

A real question:
What are Fi values? Can you list some concrete examples of Fi values?

I don't think you can differentiate Fi values from non-Fi values. It's more a matter of how an Fi-user would weigh the values differently. When making an important decision, my personal value would usually take precedence; even if it clashes with the community standards.