Poll: Do ENTJs have a tendency to micromanage the work of others?

[Jaguar]

You're the one always railing against set function orders. What about ENTJs who give more weight to Se than to Ni?

You don't think Te+Se is capable of micromanaging? Think again, champ.

Anyone is capable of doing anything.
Including you.

Pasting together functions as some type of evidence is not going to work here.
Try it on a Noob. They might fall for it.

 

[JHBowden]

Well, I really, really hate hassle, so the more tedium in my life that gets delegated, the better.

The ISTJs and the INTJs are more likely to micromanage in leadership positions, since the ISTJ has an uncompromising sense of what "should" be done, and the INTJ has an inflexible vision of perfection. An ESTJ with clear goals would be a better leader than those two types, imo.

Can't speak for everyone, but me-- get across the finish line, rack up some wins, and then it is time for fun! If others can make my life easier, more power to 'em.

 

[simulatedworld]

Anyone is capable of doing anything.
Including you.

Pasting together functions as some type of evidence is not going to work here.
Try it on a Noob. They might fall for it.

It should work if you understand what attitudes those functions represent and are able to intuit what behaviors and interaction styles they commonly produce.

I'd expect a strongly intuitive person to be able to do that, but then again, T > N for you, so I'm not surprised.

The ISTJs and the INTJs are more likely to micromanage in leadership positions, since the ISTJ has an uncompromising sense of what "should" be done, and the INTJ has an inflexible vision of perfection. An ESTJ with clear goals would be a better leader than those two types, imo.

New hypothesis: ETJs of both kinds rely on Te so naturally and automatically that they don't even realize they come off as too controlling/micromanaging to others. You guys literally don't realize you're doing it!

Micromanaging involves interacting with others and applying structure and order to the environment. It's inherently an extroverted process. How could an introverted judging type do this more than its extroverted counterpart? I really don't understand this.

 

[Jaguar]

It should work if you understand what attitudes those functions represent and are able to intuit what behaviors and interaction styles they commonly produce.

I'd expect a strongly intuitive person to be able to do that, but then again, T > N for you, so I'm not surprised.

You've known about functions for less than a year, Sim.
Stop embarrassing yourself.

 

[simulatedworld]

You've known about functions for less than a year, Sim.
Stop embarrassing yourself.

Objection, your honor: Relevance? Knowledge of any topic is dependent upon how much of your time you spend studying it, not how long ago your first introduction to it was.

I've met people that started playing guitar 30 years ago and have spent fewer total hours on it than I have in about 8. What's your point?

 

[Jaguar]

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...hinking-why-cognitive-functions-bullshit.html

 

[simulatedworld]

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...hinking-why-cognitive-functions-bullshit.html

You don't really get this "relevance" thing, do you? You're running out of ideas.

When I was five I thought Santa Claus brought me presents every year. Then I discovered new information and changed my perspective.

I know the idea of learning and change is difficult for you, but try to understand that it's necessary for growth.

 

[BlueFlame]

Objection, your honor: Relevance? Knowledge of any topic is dependent upon how much of your time you spend studying it, not how long ago your first introduction to it was.

I've met people that started playing guitar 30 years ago and have spent fewer total hours on it than I have in about 8. What's your point?

I'm going to have to rule that as an ad hominem.
Objection sustained.

We need more logical fallacy emoticons! They amuse me.

 

[Jaguar]

You don't get the relevance.
First you claim functions are bullshit and now you see yourself as an "expert."
Put the two together, and you have an expert in bullshit.

All you do is quote, parrot, or plain rip off Lenore Thomson.
It's become an obsession for you.
If you actually knew something, you wouldn't resort to such tactics.

 

[JHBowden]

You guys literally don't realize you're doing it!

Ah, nothing is as it seems!

You're an ENTP, so I imagine you're good at recognizing group dynamics. Make people feel empowered, valuable, and part of the team, and they'll get stuff done. Extroversion, yo!

Do you spaz when you don't get your way? Didn't think so. ENTJs don't spaz either. INTJs and ISTJs are different. ISTJs spaz out when things aren't the way they think they "should" be. INTJs spaz when something pollutes their vision. And they're more likely to be fussy about it because of the thinking preference. So they're not as effective in leadership positions that require initiative, adaptability, a nose for trends and possibilities, et cetera. If someone else has a good idea, it needs to be assimilated. Like the Borg.

Think of it this way-- what is the weakest ENTJ function? Feeling, of course. Like Peter Gibbons from Office Space, it isn't that I'm lazy, it is that I just don't care. The less drama, the better.

 

[miss fortune]

My favorite part was when he made the absurd implication that S types have no idea when to keep their behavioral tendencies in check, and then got all up in arms about about an ENTJ stereotype. I figured the only way to make this point in Te language would be to show some hard evidence, so here we go.

As always, generalizing is great until it's my group being generalized about it. Then it's unfair and ridiculous!!

where was THAT?! I have some smiting to do!

and I know quite a few ENTJs... they seemed to prefer the approach of more broadly crushing people's souls and grinding them down with arguments than bothering with micromanaging them... THAT sort of work fell below them :rolli:

(and yes, they're even my friends! )

 

[simulatedworld]

You don't get the relevance.
First you claim functions are bullshit and now you see yourself as an "expert."
Put the two together, and you have an expert in bullshit.

All you do is quote, parrot, or plain rip off Lenore Thomson.
It's become an obsession for you.
If you actually knew something, you wouldn't resort to such tactics.

It's funny how every time I quote any source someone decides that that's the only source I listen to.

I quote Jung and evilrobot tells me I'm taking a "purist Jungian approach."

I quote MBTI literature and you tell me I'm sticking dogmatically to its function molds.

And now I quote Lenore and you tell me it's the only source I pay attention to.

Here are a few topics I disagree with Lenore on:

--Shadow functions. She says Se and Fi are the first functions an ENTP will resort to when Ne and Ti have failed, but I don't see the shadows of dom/aux coming up very often in many people at all.

--Positioning of tertiary and inferior functions relative to shadows. Lenore claims all four shadow functions are used more easily and confidently than the tertiary and inferior functions, which I don't believe is the case. I think shadows are most often weaker than all four "primary" functions.

--Type testing. She offers a type test in her book and, though she does qualify it with numerous disclaimers about how people might test inaccurately, I find the whole idea of typology testing a frivolous waste of time, because of poor question wording and self-report, among other problems.

--Positive use of the inferior function. Lenore seems to think the answer to all of life's problems lies in developing the auxiliary. While this is an important thing to do, she goes on to say that use of the inferior should be avoided as it can't be developed well at all. I don't agree with that--I think given time and practice we can learn to harness the inferior function for positive use.

--Overlapping definitions of Ti and Se. A lot of her Ti definition involves directly interacting with a situation and responding instinctively according to what feels like the right response at the time, which I think is more accurately described as Se. I believe Ti is much more about understanding and less about experience.

--Brain imaging techniques involved in her declarations of Pe/Ji as "right brain" and Je/Pi as "left brain." There doesn't seem to be any real science backing up these assertions, because we can't be sure which tasks involve which cognitive functions--since the functions themselves are subjective, nebulous concepts.

--Type designations of various popular characters, such as Dana Sculley (of The X-Files) as ENTJ, or Captain Kirk as an Ne dom. I think both of these characters are more accurately described as S types, and there are numerous other examples from popular culture throughout the book where I disagree with her type analysis.

So let me guess--you've never erroneously believed something and then later realized you were wrong about it?

Gosh, that might explain your tenacity in maintaining such faith in the idiotic nonsense you keep writing to me on a daily basis.

I'm not even responding to half of your dumb shit posts these days because they get increasingly nonsensical and less worth reading by the day. You're not even trying.

 

[Fecal McAngry]

Again I'll ask you: Why do you think this ENTJ overbearing stereotype exists?

Nobody disputes that ENTJs are often overbearing or bossy.

 

[sculpting]

where was THAT?! I have some smiting to do!

and I know quite a few ENTJs... they seemed to prefer the approach of more broadly crushing people's souls and grinding them down with arguments than bothering with micromanaging them... THAT sort of work fell below them :rolli:

(and yes, they're even my friends! )

yes, this sounds correct. Except they dont even realize they are doing it and seemed confused when people protest. I actually love knowing I am right and then getting in a "discussion" with an ENTJ... It is often loud. But they always respect you for it. Worked for two ENTJs. Loved them-although you have to put on your tough outer shell to be productive and be willing to go Te bare knuckles.

I also worked for two ESTJs-one was a horrific micro manager. The second was controlling but gave me unlimited free rein. She would actively dominate others but not me. When drunk she would tell me how awesome she thought I was and give me Te life lessons like "Never apologize for anything." I would be distinctly NeTe and she would be distinctly TeNe when we interacted. She gave me a huge promotion and a 30% salary increase. I dunno...it was odd but a workable relationship if you dont need a lot of mentoring.

 

[Jaguar]

Here are a few topics I disagree with Lenore on:

The fact that you are still stuck on Lenore tells me this is a waste of time.
Sim, I'm someone who wants the latest knowledge on any subject.
That woman is prehistoric.

You can't keep ignoring the developments after MBTI.
Why do you think I posted about Singer and Loomis?
They came on the horizon years ago.
Here you are behaving as if MBTI is actually, "the cutting edge."
In reality, MBTI is the equivalent of a horse and carriage.

If you're too lazy to update your knowledge, there really is no point in a discussion.
You're the one who isn't trying.
You choose to use inaccurate information.
I don't.

 

[tcda]

The answer to the OP's question has already been given rather succintly:

Just for fun:

ESTJ: Micromanager
ENTJ: Macromanager
ENFJ: People Manager
ESTP: Disaster Control (aka Kick-Ass-and-Take-Names) Manager

ESFJ: Master of Ceremonies (manager)
ESFP: Collegiality and Diversion Manager
ENTP: Chaos Production Manager
ENFP: Possibilities and Brainstorming Manager

ISFJ: Personnel Manager
ISTJ: Industrial Manager
INFJ: Manager for the Protection of Workers' and Human Rights
INTJ: Systems Manager

ISTP: Device Manager
ISFP: Trend Manager
INTP: Development Manager
INFP: Manager of the Better Bureau and Ethics Department

Makes theoretical sense and ties with experience.

 

[Windigo]

ENTJs are Choleric in control. yes? They arent into micromanaging things that just dont matter (ESFJ moms? yes they do enjoy micromanaging the most mundane!).

I see ENTJs as more likely to just want to do everything themselves (not trusting others). Micromanaging seems to imply that you are constantly meddling in other peoples business.

EXACTLY! Thank you Babylon Candle! I knew I liked you more than just for your taste in books!

I don't see myself meddling in other peoples business, but sadly I do get perceived that way a LOT!

1. I don't let my family clean my kitchen because I have a certain system for where everything goes. I get very frustrated the nth time I have told some one where things go and they are not put there. It may not matter to my Ps, but I don't want to spend an extra 10 minutes searching for a needed utensil, etc. I have enough to do in a day.

2. My kids accuse me of micromanaging science/art and other school projects. But that's just because I get EXCITED about them. Now they are on their own.

3. People at my work think I butt my nose in areas that don't concern me. For example, our company hosted a seminar. After the main speaker was finished, everyone was supposed to break up into individual groups. One group looked confused as to where they were supposed to go and what they were supposed to bring with them. I looked around to see if anyone was available to help and saw that everyone was busy, so remembering what was said, I directed them to the place they were supposed to go. After they seminar they came and thanked ME for putting it on. I told them I wasn't in charge, but the people who were were NOT HAPPY.

So others might say butting in or micromanaging . . . I say, just being helpful.

Well, I agreed with the other poster, which was describing other qualities. i could see myself giving a rather vague picture of an assignment, while having quite a clear picture in my head of what I want it to be, and then get pissed if the result don't match. Which is quite bad.
Micromanagement tho would mean that I'd have to check the whole process of execution constantly...jesus...deadly boring. I'd rather develop some other new idea while other people do their work.

I HATE having to stand over someone and tell them what to do . . . but what I ABHOR is having someone make the same mistake more than twice! I get REALLY angry. On the other hand I don't think everyone is incompetent. In fact I will give them the benefit of the doubt, until they prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are indeed incompetent.

Case in Point: When there is trouble in my company everyone comes running to tell me because they know I'm the only one with the confidence to truthfully tell the boss what's going on. In fact, I was laid off precisely because I told the boss what she was doing wrong.
I thought I was being nice and helpful about it. Apparently she didn't feel the same way. I wish however she had taken my advice, because less than six months later she was politely asked to retire by the board who finally realized as I did that she was incompetent. I was willing to work with her, but hey, don't listen to an ENTJ at your own peril . . . .

 

[BlueFlame]

Why, because your MBTI profile says, "Ss like details and Ns don't"?

Hate to break it to you, but that's a nasty oversimplification of a much more nuanced functional theory.

Te can pay excessive attention to minor details on its own, without the help of an introverted perception function.

You guys are kidding yourselves if you think auxiliary Ni prevents you from ever getting mired in irrelevant details.

Much as Ns may like to believe otherwise about themselves, they can very petulant about things that violate the principles of their judging functions.

If you think Ns can't focus excessively on minor details, look at the way INTPs nitpick the shit out of logical incorrectness and slightly off shades of meaning. Why would they have a reputation for nitpicking if Ns always ignore trivial details?

xNxx types don't ignore details; the N function does.

Unfortunately, half of the xNxx types place a judgment faculty in a higher position than their N function, and judgment functions quite frequently do focus on minor details.

Micromanaging the environment is a function of Te/Fe, not a perception function. ESTJs will do it worse than ENTJs, but you're relying on a dumb MBTI oversimplification of N/S types if you think being an N type means you're immune to focusing on minor details.

Go read up on Te.




This actually helps my point. I'm dominant in an N function and I can still focus on trivial details when they violate the principles of my judgment faculty, Ti. "BUT I'M AN N TYPE SO I'M IMMUNE TO GETTING STUCK IN TRIVIAL DETAILS WAAHHHHH"

Nope, the judgment function is responsible for that, not your perception.

Try working with an INFP on an artistic project and see how much his incessant perfectionism insists that every detail be precisely as he wants it. Being an N type doesn't give you a magical free pass to never get stuck on minor details--what a dumb argument.

Um, no. It's not a straw man. Look at his post:



He italicized "with excessive attention to minor details" in order to illustrate his contention that Ns don't manage with excessive attention to minor details. This is based on the popular MBTI myth that "Ss like details and Ns like the big picture."

Unfortunately for him, Ns can and do manage with excessive attention to minor details when a non-N Judgment function is governing their behavior...which happens quite often with types who place a Judgment function above the N function.

This is really not that difficult.

I'm sorry, but yes it is. I don't think anyone has even claimed that N's are incapable of paying attention to detail. At least not in this thread.And your entire argument rests on ripping apart the fact that someone, somewhere said that the ENTIRE reason ENTJs don't tend to be micromanagers because they don't have an S in their name.

Straw. Man.



Anyone is capable of stressing over details OR the big picture, given the correct situation. Is that really even worth discussing?

Your poll is split almost evenly last I checked, and you can take my initial "yes" vote out of the equation because I changed my mind while I was writing my first response.

The anecdotal evidence combined with that fact that ENTJs are not theoretically wired to be the ultimate micromanagers in most general situations together imply that, yes, ENTJs can be micromanagers, but it simply can't be accepted as a broad generalization at this point. Theory is nothing if it doesn't hold up in experimentation.

 

[highlander]

Do you spaz when you don't get your way? Didn't think so. ENTJs don't spaz either. INTJs and ISTJs are different. ISTJs spaz out when things aren't the way they think they "should" be. INTJs spaz when something pollutes their vision. And they're more likely to be fussy about it because of the thinking preference. So they're not as effective in leadership positions that require initiative, adaptability, a nose for trends and possibilities, et cetera. If someone else has a good idea, it needs to be assimilated. Like the Borg.

Think of it this way-- what is the weakest ENTJ function? Feeling, of course. Like Peter Gibbons from Office Space, it isn't that I'm lazy, it is that I just don't care. The less drama, the better.

First, I disagree with your statements about INTJs not as effective in leadership postions that requires initiative, adaptability, a nose for trends, and possibilities. I think in change situations, INTJs often find themselves in leadership positions. They know what do to when other people are confused, due to the clarity of their intuitive perceptions in the face of ambiguity, and how they are able to effectively exercise NiTe together. EDIT: I've mostly made my career on these situations, so perhaps it doesn't apply to this type of INTJ anyway.

When it comes down to ENTJs, I realize I'm generalizing and many may not hit the pattern, but I think what really bothers me the most is them turning their critique against people - that is judging people as unqualified, bad, not right fit, etc. and the speed with which they take action. They seem to seek to move bodies into positions where they can fit the right cog in the grand scheme. If there is a cog they don't like, or thinks differently than them, they toss it way. Perhaps it is my reaction, but I don't react well to loud, controlling, leaders particularly well. I have also seen decisions arrived at on the disposition of people - "this one's no good, then fire them" when in fact is it is the ENTJ's inability to appreciate people who are different from himself. This one guy tears through people - fatal flaw because other than that, he's quite capapable. It is a bit of a hatchet man's approach to managing people in my experience, not caring about the people they impact in the least. Though this person can be very inspiring to a crowd, the problems are with those that work directly for him. He seems to lack some ability to listen, is intolerant of mistakes, has quite a large ego, doesn't stick up for his people at key times, and these things get him in trouble because he has no loyal team that lasts to follow him. He is not nearly as successful as he could be.I'm not saying all ENTJs all do this, but have seen it enough times to notice a pattern of similar behaviours in several others - jumping to conclusions, taking actions, without sufficient information or evidence to base it on. It always seems to be an ENTJ exhibiting these behaviors. I'm not sure why.

ENTJ Spaz Example as relayed by someone else last week. ENTJ screws up his need to approve his own paperwork. Screams at poor administrative assistant that they're not doing their job (they should do it for him) and then hangs up on him. Complains to the poor guys supervisor that he isn't doing his job and it impacts his assistant's performance review. Administrative assistant is in tears over unfair feedback. Yet, actually, the ENTJ was the only one who could approve his paperwork in the first place. He realizes this later of course after the fact but does not ever admit that he is wrong or go back to the person's supervisor to apologize. True story.

 

[theplacesyoullgo]

Only if what the other person is doing really impacts my own life. Then yes, I micromanage, because people can't be trusted to make the right decision or follow up a lot of the time.