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Trump vs. Biden

Red Memories

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People cant understand that I dislike Trump so much and I'm pleased by his defeat but still want to see Biden defeated by some alternative later in the future, not a right wing alternative but some sort of democrat successor who is more like Bernie, it is not even to do with the likely economic and social policy so much as its about Biden himself.

I've seen a lot of concerning stuff about him in the last few days and I dont think its all propaganda. I just hate so much that this guy was considered the alternative to Trump. I'm pretty sure that Biden would not have won if he were running against an earlier alternative Republican candidate, such as Bush, maybe there's a lesson in that for the GOP. Chasing the populist vote they lost enough of the floating voters or middle to lose the actual election.

I wonder now too if the GOP will regroup and rethink or if they will become some sort of personality cult around Trump as many of his supporters on main street seem to be becoming.

It should be obvious from the actual growth in the independent vote for Jo Jergensen some people decided they couldn't hold their nose to either of these people. I was tempted but I didn't really want 4 more years of Trump, political hysteria, and our country driven by sheer anger.
 

Totenkindly

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So now comes the battle to reconcile my image of the people around me with the reality of what they think, and how to engage/relate to people with very different views of the world.

I've always been very introverted and not prone to real-world socializing. When I lived in PA, I kind of just kept my mouth shut while in church because I knew it was pointless to get into things except with a few people I knew well. And I didn't really have neighbors I spent much time with. (Reviewing my life, that has typically been the case -- I lived in neighborhoods but didn't really hang out with neighbors -- my few relationships were always cultivated with the few people I felt I could connect with, usually through a church setting or when my kids got older, other parents of kids my kids knew. OR people I worked with, the few I could relate to.)

I ended up moving a lot after my life transition, I think I moved eight times in 6-7 years. So I didn't really have a lot of grounded relationships IRL. My virtual relationships tended to be more intimate and ongoing. This point of saying all this is that it's hard to know how to have a meaningful relationship when I find out things about my neighbors and end up feeling conflicted over them.

Case in point, one of my next door neighbors. When I moved into this neighborhood (for reference, I closed on my house the same day as Trump's inauguration), my neighbor told me after that we "had a pretty good neighborhood and we were all able to get along with each other despite our differences -- when Trump was elected, there had been a number of parties around the neighborhood" -- and while I didn't say anything (because that's how I am... I mull over and decide what the best response is after time passes), inside I remember wondering immediately if I had picked the right neighborhood to move into.

But my neighbor hasn't been a bad neighbor to me. They have gone out of their way to volunteer to help if I ever needed it. we've had the occasional conversation. we both have adopted children from other countries (mine from China, theirs from South America). We both have special needs kids, of different sorts. They love their kids. They are not bad neighbors. I like them on a daily level. In fact, I genuinely like the people on my street, even though I'm not stupid and already had an idea of which 2-3 supported Trump.

So it wasn't surprising when one of them got kind of defensive as the week wore on. She wouldn't say anything specific, but she started making slight passive-aggressive jabs at the celebrators and then got really defensive by Thursday/Friday, complaining that she was getting shit from some of her friends for being a Republican, and she was announcing she was unapologetic for her political leaning. (She never mentioned Trump.) I just kind of shrugged. [My state is a clear blue state, with a 66/33 victory for Biden.]

But the other, the person I described above, finally after being grumpy and/or quiet on FB, finally went into a spiel about how the whole country was going to suck now. Only 3-4 of her friends responded, one of them to castigate her and another to tell her to "give things a chance" just as she expected Democrats to do in 2016 when Trump won. But she and the others basically griped about how 401Ks were going to suck now (side note: she is blue collar, demographically) but also how all of her tax dollars were going to be spent on low-income black people who were lazy, just got their nails done all the time, etc.

I didn't say anything on FB, and I know she has a lot more people on her list who refused to go near that dumpster fire; but I'm kinda like, how do I relate to this person now? Like I said, I never had an issue with them. They have helped me out when I've needed it. If I was being threatened by someone or there was a problem, I know they would physically defend me. We have points of commonality. But now I'm just like... wtf. It's not like I don't have a 401K, and I am way short for what I need to retire (we're the same age)... and I don't even have a spouse to depend on. But the economy is more than a 401K and cannot endure if it keeps running as it has been; my kids are already being shortchanged, and hers would be as well, unless drastic changes are made.

And as far as what amounted to a racist scree (there was other stuff too). Next time I see her, I'm not sure how I'm going to respond. But also I'm really sure I'm not the only one trying to figure this out. Biden might have won, but this stuff will persist and continue to eat like a cancer until we figure it out.
 

anticlimatic

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I'm looking forward to discussing things of actual substance- core worldview theories, direct/auxiliary impacts of policy, social structure/relations, risk/reward etc.
 

ceecee

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So now comes the battle to reconcile my image of the people around me with the reality of what they think, and how to engage/relate to people with very different views of the world.

I've always been very introverted and not prone to real-world socializing. When I lived in PA, I kind of just kept my mouth shut while in church because I knew it was pointless to get into things except with a few people I knew well. And I didn't really have neighbors I spent much time with. (Reviewing my life, that has typically been the case -- I lived in neighborhoods but didn't really hang out with neighbors -- my few relationships were always cultivated with the few people I felt I could connect with, usually through a church setting or when my kids got older, other parents of kids my kids knew. OR people I worked with, the few I could relate to.)

I ended up moving a lot after my life transition, I think I moved eight times in 6-7 years. So I didn't really have a lot of grounded relationships IRL. My virtual relationships tended to be more intimate and ongoing. This point of saying all this is that it's hard to know how to have a meaningful relationship when I find out things about my neighbors and end up feeling conflicted over them.

Case in point, one of my next door neighbors. When I moved into this neighborhood (for reference, I closed on my house the same day as Trump's inauguration), my neighbor told me after that we "had a pretty good neighborhood and we were all able to get along with each other despite our differences -- when Trump was elected, there had been a number of parties around the neighborhood" -- and while I didn't say anything (because that's how I am... I mull over and decide what the best response is after time passes), inside I remember wondering immediately if I had picked the right neighborhood to move into.

But my neighbor hasn't been a bad neighbor to me. They have gone out of their way to volunteer to help if I ever needed it. we've had the occasional conversation. we both have adopted children from other countries (mine from China, theirs from South America). We both have special needs kids, of different sorts. They love their kids. They are not bad neighbors. I like them on a daily level. In fact, I genuinely like the people on my street, even though I'm not stupid and already had an idea of which 2-3 supported Trump.

So it wasn't surprising when one of them got kind of defensive as the week wore on. She wouldn't say anything specific, but she started making slight passive-aggressive jabs at the celebrators and then got really defensive by Thursday/Friday, complaining that she was getting shit from some of her friends for being a Republican, and she was announcing she was unapologetic for her political leaning. (She never mentioned Trump.) I just kind of shrugged. [My state is a clear blue state, with a 66/33 victory for Biden.]

But the other, the person I described above, finally after being grumpy and/or quiet on FB, finally went into a spiel about how the whole country was going to suck now. Only 3-4 of her friends responded, one of them to castigate her and another to tell her to "give things a chance" just as she expected Democrats to do in 2016 when Trump won. But she and the others basically griped about how 401Ks were going to suck now (side note: she is blue collar, demographically) but also how all of her tax dollars were going to be spent on low-income black people who were lazy, just got their nails done all the time, etc.

I didn't say anything on FB, and I know she has a lot more people on her list who refused to go near that dumpster fire; but I'm kinda like, how do I relate to this person now? Like I said, I never had an issue with them. They have helped me out when I've needed it. If I was being threatened by someone or there was a problem, I know they would physically defend me. We have points of commonality. But now I'm just like... wtf. It's not like I don't have a 401K, and I am way short for what I need to retire (we're the same age)... and I don't even have a spouse to depend on. But the economy is more than a 401K and cannot endure if it keeps running as it has been; my kids are already being shortchanged, and hers would be as well, unless drastic changes are made.

And as far as what amounted to a racist scree (there was other stuff too). Next time I see her, I'm not sure how I'm going to respond. But also I'm really sure I'm not the only one trying to figure this out. Biden might have won, but this stuff will persist and continue to eat like a cancer until we figure it out.

My neighbor took his Trump flag down and replaced it with an American flag. I wonder if he'll ever ponder it - I took down the American flag that represents all Americans and replaced it with a Trump flag - I voted for a brand. I replaced love for America with my love of Trump and made sure to advertise that fact.

This isn't something that the right/conservatives grasps right now, they may never grasp and yes we need to figure that out. But I can't help but feel the right is just waiting around to replace America with a much worse neo-fascist or right wing populist yet again. I really don't see why I need to entertain that or the rest of the nation needs to tolerate that.
 

xenaprincess

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And as far as what amounted to a racist scree (there was other stuff too). Next time I see her, I'm not sure how I'm going to respond. But also I'm really sure I'm not the only one trying to figure this out. Biden might have won, but this stuff will persist and continue to eat like a cancer until we figure it out.

I understand your pov. My SO would write off that "friend". I would too, but my question would be...why does this person think that black people get free money and spend that money on their nails? She must be getting that impression from something - either a past experience or something in the media.

Bill Maher had a very good episode the other day. He had a guest on who was a Georgetown law professor who said that people are stuck in their little alternate realities, which shifts the blame from the individual people.

I was very surprised that Bill was for unity and moving on. I would've thought he'd be harping more about 'locking him up'.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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So now comes the battle to reconcile my image of the people around me with the reality of what they think, and how to engage/relate to people with very different views of the world.

I've always been very introverted and not prone to real-world socializing. When I lived in PA, I kind of just kept my mouth shut while in church because I knew it was pointless to get into things except with a few people I knew well. And I didn't really have neighbors I spent much time with. (Reviewing my life, that has typically been the case -- I lived in neighborhoods but didn't really hang out with neighbors -- my few relationships were always cultivated with the few people I felt I could connect with, usually through a church setting or when my kids got older, other parents of kids my kids knew. OR people I worked with, the few I could relate to.)

I ended up moving a lot after my life transition, I think I moved eight times in 6-7 years. So I didn't really have a lot of grounded relationships IRL. My virtual relationships tended to be more intimate and ongoing. This point of saying all this is that it's hard to know how to have a meaningful relationship when I find out things about my neighbors and end up feeling conflicted over them.

Case in point, one of my next door neighbors. When I moved into this neighborhood (for reference, I closed on my house the same day as Trump's inauguration), my neighbor told me after that we "had a pretty good neighborhood and we were all able to get along with each other despite our differences -- when Trump was elected, there had been a number of parties around the neighborhood" -- and while I didn't say anything (because that's how I am... I mull over and decide what the best response is after time passes), inside I remember wondering immediately if I had picked the right neighborhood to move into.

But my neighbor hasn't been a bad neighbor to me. They have gone out of their way to volunteer to help if I ever needed it. we've had the occasional conversation. we both have adopted children from other countries (mine from China, theirs from South America). We both have special needs kids, of different sorts. They love their kids. They are not bad neighbors. I like them on a daily level. In fact, I genuinely like the people on my street, even though I'm not stupid and already had an idea of which 2-3 supported Trump.

So it wasn't surprising when one of them got kind of defensive as the week wore on. She wouldn't say anything specific, but she started making slight passive-aggressive jabs at the celebrators and then got really defensive by Thursday/Friday, complaining that she was getting shit from some of her friends for being a Republican, and she was announcing she was unapologetic for her political leaning. (She never mentioned Trump.) I just kind of shrugged. [My state is a clear blue state, with a 66/33 victory for Biden.]

But the other, the person I described above, finally after being grumpy and/or quiet on FB, finally went into a spiel about how the whole country was going to suck now. Only 3-4 of her friends responded, one of them to castigate her and another to tell her to "give things a chance" just as she expected Democrats to do in 2016 when Trump won. But she and the others basically griped about how 401Ks were going to suck now (side note: she is blue collar, demographically) but also how all of her tax dollars were going to be spent on low-income black people who were lazy, just got their nails done all the time, etc.

I didn't say anything on FB, and I know she has a lot more people on her list who refused to go near that dumpster fire; but I'm kinda like, how do I relate to this person now? Like I said, I never had an issue with them. They have helped me out when I've needed it. If I was being threatened by someone or there was a problem, I know they would physically defend me. We have points of commonality. But now I'm just like... wtf. It's not like I don't have a 401K, and I am way short for what I need to retire (we're the same age)... and I don't even have a spouse to depend on. But the economy is more than a 401K and cannot endure if it keeps running as it has been; my kids are already being shortchanged, and hers would be as well, unless drastic changes are made.

And as far as what amounted to a racist scree (there was other stuff too). Next time I see her, I'm not sure how I'm going to respond. But also I'm really sure I'm not the only one trying to figure this out. Biden might have won, but this stuff will persist and continue to eat like a cancer until we figure it out.
A huge percentage of my FB friends from the past are Trump supporters. I feel disoriented about how to relate. I also think some of these people believe in kindness, but now I think they are capable of levels of enabling, denial, compartmentalization, believing fragments of reality while dismissing serious violations, that my ability to trust is damaged. I didn't unfriend people (except one), but I don't understand how we intersect in terms of values and morality. It does feel like finding out grandma was a Nazi, even though she made lovely dolls for the kids at Christmas. In my life the same has been true of the people who did violate me. They were loving in their way, but it too was compartmentalized.

And now a person can profess Christianity to love their neighbor, to be like Jesus, and embrace a man who destroys families at the border, who brags about being a sexual violator, and condones racism. There were two choices on the shelf, and they chose this one not caring the contents of the jar. "The choice was offered, so who are you to judge? I have my right to my candidate. If he was offered, he was legit. I am so persecuted you don't recognize that." I do think that the person who accepts Trump's behavior will accept it in others who are in a position of power. Even if they seem nice to me, they might not believe a rape allegation if someone high up in their church committed the violation. I don't feel safe with people who accept violators because there is some condition in which I could be victim which they will accept. Whether that actually happens is not certain, but the possibility exists.

Edit: I also think that Trump ripped off the facade of American racism with his blatancy, so in a way those who didn't delve more deeply into the denial culture, but felt forced to see it in Trump, are now more suddenly seeing the America that a lot of minorities have known all along.
 

Jaguar

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In Pittsburgh, in Allegheny County, the contentious election brought strife to Democrat Brendan Miller, 34, who voted for Biden.

He said he is contemplating moving with his wife to a more liberal state and excommunicating most of his other family.

"I would, absolutely, at this point. It's beyond politics," he said. "I'm voting on ethics. People are getting more ignorant, and they're proud of it."


Food for thought.
 

Totenkindly

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Food for thought.

I kind of did that, although I had an excuse of a job, when I moved to a blue state 8 years ago.

Except now I am torn between staying here where life is more sane and I am happier, vs moving back where my vote will do more good and I could have more influence. But damn, that just exhausts me to think about, and my job is still here, I won't find something similar back there.
 

Jaguar

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I kind of did that, although I had an excuse of a job, when I moved to a blue state 8 years ago.

Except now I am torn between staying here where life is more sane and I am happier, vs moving back where my vote will do more good and I could have more influence. But damn, that just exhausts me to think about, and my job is still here, I won't find something similar back there.

Clearly something is missing. Your vote? Your vote for what? And what kind of influence are you referring to?
 

Totenkindly

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Clearly something is missing. Your vote? Your vote for what? And what kind of influence are you referring to?

I'm not sure what you mean, since I'm pretty sure you already understood what I meant.

But fine: my vote here is unneeded for the kinds of things I support -- they are going to win regardless. But there are places in our country where my vote might be more needed.
 

Z Buck McFate

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I'm not sure what you mean, since I'm pretty sure you already understood what I meant.

But fine: my vote here is unneeded for the kinds of things I support -- they are going to win regardless. But there are places in our country where my vote might be more needed.

And where, thanks to EC, will actually count proportionately more.

I've been wondering if there's any way to coordinate blue exoduses (exodusi?) into red areas, to maximise chance at making Congress all blue long enough to get rid of EC. I mean, it's legal, right? And far more ethical than gerrymandering.

eta: And I guess, what's more, if some analysts were to set up a site letting people know specifically where they could move for their vote to make the biggest impact, I'm guessing at least a few younger people would act on it? In groups? :shrug:
 

Red Memories

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after my grandpa heard Biden's address, he actually warmed up to him being President.

maybe others will too? my grandpa has been a die hard trumper.
 

Jaguar

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I'm not sure what you mean, since I'm pretty sure you already understood what I meant.

But fine: my vote here is unneeded for the kinds of things I support -- they are going to win regardless. But there are places in our country where my vote might be more needed.

That must be some superhuman vote you have there, sweetheart. I sure don't have one. But then I'm a mere mortal, what do I know? ;)
 

The Cat

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He's actually really great when Jim Carrey isn't trying to be Jim Carrey. His serious films such as The Truman Show and his darker comedies like me, myself, and irene are really good.

Indeed, I also enjoyed him in the number23
 

Lexicon

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He's actually really great when Jim Carrey isn't trying to be Jim Carrey. His serious films such as The Truman Show and his darker comedies like me, myself, and irene are really good.

I hated Ace Ventura, but Cable Guy is something I will always enjoy.

*cough*
(I love how the mods are derailing this thread)
 

The Cat

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I hated Ace Ventura, but Cable Guy is something I will always enjoy.

*cough*
(I love how the mods are derailing this thread)

Cable Guy is the best. Now off with the lot us the movie thread!
 

Totenkindly

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My eldest just told me he got a message from his cousin's wife, celebrating Biden's victory. That would be the wife of my ex (?) nephew, since i'm divorced and they're all from my ex's side of the family and living in Ohio. I'm sure that family all voted for Trump because he's pro-life :whistling: and Biden kills babies. She is obviously religious too, having married into that group -- but contacted my kids because she "has no one to celebrate with on that side."

Well, she is always welcome in MY family! :D

Indeed, I also enjoyed him in the number23

The movie sucked, but he was decent enough.

Mostly I love him for Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, since he and Kate Winslet played against type -- and he was good.
 
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