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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    I've run across more people with nihilistic thoughts on climate change than I wanted. I lol at the claims of absolutely not caring about climate change. If that were the case there would be an even bigger surge in suicide.

    I feel they come to this conclusion because the solution is larger than they can comprehend. They also seem to think activists are only preaching individual lifestyle changes but in reality activism is aimed more at corporate and government - the ones actually responsible and governments that coddle them. Individual change, like eating less meat or using less disposable plastic is, let's face it, so incredibly hard for these people that they feel climate change rhetoric is nothing more than an attack on their values or culture or lifestyle (even typing that sounds insane but I'm only relating what people have said to me).
    I think that's really the crux of it.

    It really doesn't help matters that the two interrelated processes of global warming and climate change have bloated from being oversensationalized by popular media, so that average people can't distinguish between the impact of emissions on the environment vs changes in ocean currents, weather patterns, and temperatures - though they may seem to overlap, they are indeed separate. That, and environmental issues have been ensconced as the new political paradigm of the 21st Century replacing the sullen stalemate of the Cold War. But comparing apples to oranges for the sake of illustration: the sudden support for LGBT rights and protection is just as extreme a paradigm shift from the established heteronormal culture of just 20-years ago. The difference here is that while political campaigns for sexual identity (or sexual freedom of past generations) can be hugely successful, marketing sexual identity is both embarrassingly obvious and insubstantial. Comparing this now to environmental policy-making however, we find that marketing greening - whether through sustainable business practice, reuse of materials, emission mitigation to organic growing, humane animal welfare, to individual-level product choices (chemical-free shampoos, homespun clothing, high-reliability electronics, or organic cuisine) - has found massive appeal in 15-years time because it's trendy, practicable, and the demand is complicated and at times contradictory. But changing individual beliefs is not as simple as marketing product choices, as anyone that's spent a Sunday afternoon trying to convince a stubborn grandparent to broadening their outlooks. Ironically, reminds me of a story of how my grandmother would force-feed geese corn (foie gras) as a village girl. Something that McDonough and Braungart successfully predicted was a market-level shift to greening and subtle social conditioning of consumers and the next step of whittling away at the anti-science, anti-intellectualism, 'speciesism,' or religious dogma of citizens; an altogether vexing process.

    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    We already see plenty of people that do not care if their lives deteriorate, regardless of the reason. So long as the people they believe deserve it most, suffer as well. But this is never the actual entities that cause their economic and physical suffering - they blame people like immigrants. So like the OP says - just shrug and let things take their course. Because doing nothing is much easier and much less difficult to think about.
    It's best to leave individual understanding up to the educators or the individual to work out in their own terms. Itinerant, self-destructive politics masquerading as belief systems are symptoms of something else entirely: like banal self-loathing turned outwards, or what Hannah Arent described as "tyranny without a tyrant."

  2. #12
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    First of all: climate change will not extinct humans. Depending on how things and our actions play out the process it will kill something like 25 to 95% of us, it will destroy plenty of infrastructure, crash global economy as we know it and it will extinct endless forms of life. However some scattered humans will survive for sure unless the process triggers massive nuclear war over depleting resources. So the idea that climate change is the end of the world is generally unscientific, especially since on the scale of solar system not much will change. While on the scale of the galaxy the problem isn't even visible. In a way all this religious passion and hysteria about climate change is exactly why we can't have a honest conversation on the topic, even if there are very evident problems all over the map.


    On the other hand most of this world isn't really democratic, so thinking that individual decisions, education and lifestyle changes will fix the problem is probably quite idealistic position. Since it all comes down to dictators that expand their power with fossil fuels and will you be able to counter them if you get off the oil and they don't (if dictatorships take over the situation the climate change wouldn't be solved for sure). Therefore thinking about climate change without geopolitical factor in the mix is destined to miss the reality. However the clock is ticking while both sides are going hysteric and unrealistic over the topic, which is exactly why I place my bet on the "disaster". (I am nihilist in this topic, what I find reasonable under the circumstances)



    In the end it all come down to: Are average humans smart enough to save their own life if the problem is global, complex and multi-dimensional.

  3. #13
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    This is what I think about cynical capitalist libertarians, conservatives and other sorts of alt righters.
    That’s too broad a demographic to make any sense. Plenty in that group live enviously rich and happy lives. Don’t confuse pity with contempt.

  4. #14
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengri View Post
    I think that's really the crux of it.

    It really doesn't help matters that the two interrelated processes of global warming and climate change have bloated from being oversensationalized by popular media, so that average people can't distinguish between the impact of emissions on the environment vs changes in ocean currents, weather patterns, and temperatures - though they may seem to overlap, they are indeed separate. That, and environmental issues have been ensconced as the new political paradigm of the 21st Century replacing the sullen stalemate of the Cold War. But comparing apples to oranges for the sake of illustration: the sudden support for LGBT rights and protection is just as extreme a paradigm shift from the established heteronormal culture of just 20-years ago. The difference here is that while political campaigns for sexual identity (or sexual freedom of past generations) can be hugely successful, marketing sexual identity is both embarrassingly obvious and insubstantial. Comparing this now to environmental policy-making however, we find that marketing greening - whether through sustainable business practice, reuse of materials, emission mitigation to organic growing, humane animal welfare, to individual-level product choices (chemical-free shampoos, homespun clothing, high-reliability electronics, or organic cuisine) - has found massive appeal in 15-years time because it's trendy, practicable, and the demand is complicated and at times contradictory. But changing individual beliefs is not as simple as marketing product choices, as anyone that's spent a Sunday afternoon trying to convince a stubborn grandparent to broadening their outlooks. Ironically, reminds me of a story of how my grandmother would force-feed geese corn (foie gras) as a village girl. Something that McDonough and Braungart successfully predicted was a market-level shift to greening and subtle social conditioning of consumers and the next step of whittling away at the anti-science, anti-intellectualism, 'speciesism,' or religious dogma of citizens; an altogether vexing process.


    It's best to leave individual understanding up to the educators or the individual to work out in their own terms. Itinerant, self-destructive politics masquerading as belief systems are symptoms of something else entirely: like banal self-loathing turned outwards, or what Hannah Arent described as "tyranny without a tyrant."
    If you are unable to grasp the concept of environmental disruption and can't even remain on that subject, we have nothing to discuss.This isn't political, corporations turned it into a political argument and think tanks did the rest. If that's an issue for you, take it up with the fossil fuel industry that commissioned the research and has know about the problem since about 1970 and continued to make the issue worse.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.
    Likes Lark liked this post

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    That’s too broad a demographic to make any sense. Plenty in that group live enviously rich and happy lives. Don’t confuse pity with contempt.
    I get it, you dislike liberals, therefore they must be mad.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    If you are unable to grasp the concept of environmental disruption and can't even remain on that subject, we have nothing to discuss.This isn't political, corporations turned it into a political argument and think tanks did the rest. If that's an issue for you, take it up with the fossil fuel industry that commissioned the research and has know about the problem since about 1970 and continued to make the issue worse.
    That's for sure.

    I remember someone telling me long ago when green politics first emerged that they thought the green issues should be subsumed into other parties and that that "single issue" didnt deserve to be a political tendency or party by itself.

    The extent to which all other parties and tendencies have choosen to be in total denial about environmental impact and degradation has only prove how its important to have an exclusively green agenda or party.

  7. #17
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I get it, you dislike liberals, therefore they must be mad.
    I am liberal, and I don’t dislike anyone.

  8. #18
    awwwwwwwk Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    I am liberal, and I don’t dislike anyone.
    You mean in the European sense?
    A path is made by walking on it.

    -Zhuangzi



  9. #19
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julius_Van_Der_Beak View Post
    You mean in the European sense?
    Maybe the dictionary sense?

  10. #20
    awwwwwwwk Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    Maybe the dictionary sense?
    You vote Democratic?
    A path is made by walking on it.

    -Zhuangzi



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