Toxic Feminism

[Doctor Cringelord]

I don't really know who that guy is, but I did see some of Laci's Red Pill content. What I caught seems healthy, actually.

Laci's a feminist youtuber; recently she pissed off some other youtube feminists for reaching out to anti-feminists like Blair White for debate and discussion. Raygun is a well-known youtube antifeminist/anti-SJW.

I dunno, I don't really watch any of these people anymore but if Green and Raygun can come together, maybe there's hope for other lonely, wayward feminist and anti-feminist souls.

 

[Qlip]

Laci's a feminist youtuber; recently she pissed off some other youtube feminists for reaching out to anti-feminists like Blair White for debate and discussion. Raygun is a well-known youtube antifeminist/anti-SJW.

I dunno, I don't really watch any of these people anymore but if Green and Raygun can come together, maybe there's hope for other lonely, wayward feminist and anti-feminist souls.

I know Laci, in her Red Pill phase she's been trying to relate to people outside of SJW rhetoric, which, obviously is of very limited use in communication nowadays. I respect her a ton, I think she's a great example of a feminist, most of her work focuses on just putting out the message on sexual/psychosexual health, all genders to benefit on that one and she knows her subject.

 

[Starry]

The pendulum swings as I always say, and we are watching our cultural pendulum swing right now.

The cultural dominance of feminist ideology is waning. Re are being reborn (painfully) I wonder what America looks like on the other side.

If the pendulum has the kind of power/momentum to swing that far to the right or left that I get the sense you are imagining (and I don't think it does...I think the pendulum in this context is more of an illusion if anything...for both liberals and conservatives alike)... What does this new world look like in your opinion? What role do women play?

I think one of the things I struggle with is I want anti-feminist sentiments to make sense and they never do. If an anti-feminist...male or female...thinks women are inferior to or should be subservient to men and subsequently confined to a certain traditional role it would be so much easier to hear than dancing around the same arguments since Susan B. Anthony's time...(yes, men are...on average physically stronger than women. And if physical strength was the end all be all...human beings wouldn't be at the top of today's food chain).

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

If the pendulum has the kind of power/momentum to swing that far to the right or left that I get the sense you are imagining (and I don't think it does...I think the pendulum in this context is more of an illusion if anything...for both liberals and conservatives alike)... What does this new world look like in your opinion? What role do women play?

I think one of the things I struggle with is I want anti-feminist sentiments to make sense and they never do. If an anti-feminist...male or female...thinks women are inferior to or should be subservient to men and subsequently confined to a certain traditional role it would be so much easier to hear than dancing around the same arguments since Susan B. Anthony's time...(yes, men are...on average physically stronger than women. And if physical strength was the end all be all...human beings wouldn't be at the top of today's food chain).

I always hope it swings less far on the next go around.

Thats how history works, you just hope your side is slightly better on the next go around than the last.

History is never finished, we just usually learn to fuck it up ever so slightly less than the last go around.

That's why I'm a conservative change should be iterative not revolutionary, except when absolutely necessary. That's why the right doesn't protest.

Because when we all do we want a revolution.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

that dude doesn't scare me, though he would likely annoy me if I met him. The type of dude who lectures other dudes about "waking up" and tells them to "educate yourself." the type of person who assumes and presumes to know more or be more enlightened than others, and makes a point of telling others how enlightened and woke they are. That dude annoys me almost as much as neo-Nazis. Why do I presume to know or guess this dude is a certain type of person? If he feels a need to have a picture taken of him signaling how enlightened and woke he is to advertise that wokeness to the world, I can take a good guess he might be a sanctimonious twatchoad who lectures and chastises other guys in an effort to big himself up in front of women in his gender studies lecture courses. Go live your values and principles, don't talk about it in some attempt to make other people feel lesser or shamed. Some Feminist men like that engage in their own form of male-on-male competition for the attention and respect of women, I've seen it enough in my own experience and they're wolves in sheeps' clothing. Smart feminist women will usually sniff them out right away and avoid them. Really clever men of this sort can go a lot further before being found out. Ghomeshi is a good example.

There's a Taoist saying attributed to Lao Tzu (paraphrasing): "He who knows does not speak and he who speaks does not know."

For the most part, I don't mind feminist women. They often have valid reasons for embracing the ideology. Some make for fun discussion/debate partners or just friends.

You, [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION], [MENTION=5223]MDP2525[/MENTION], for instance--you're all people I respect, and enjoy talking to or debating, even if it can get contentious or heated at times. I'd have a drink with [MENTION=7254]Wind Up Rex[/MENTION]
I've usually found that the most zealous and ideologically blinded feminists (with some exceptions in either gender) are men.

I'd take hanging out with feminist women over hanging out with tradcon women any day of the week. Tradcon women are also wolves in sheeps' clothing, in my experience. They will stroke male egos to extract money and security, whereas a feminist woman might tend to be more blunt and direct--I've seen how the older traditionalist Christian women in my family can manipulate their men. Where a lot of conservative men screw up is thinking that type of woman is an improvement and better alternative to feminist women. Obviously exceptions exist in either case, but I think these men are misguided. Be like Bill Burr, marry a liberal feminist. Challenge yourself. I think a little ideological tension can be healthy to a relationship, whether it be one between friends or lovers.

Sorry, rant done

Well, thanks for this post. I think it's honest. I like honesty. To be truthful, I admire tradcon women. It's a state of mind that is foreign to me but holy crap what strength. I don't denigrate them. What I see and what I think a lot of feminism sees is many men desiring this but unable to produce their side of the bargain. When they cannot? The women become the scapegoat for that failure.

I mean that is human nature. You beat down those who have no monetary strength. Raising households? No monetary value in that. Crap ton of value tho. So...I respect that. Immensely.

There's manipulation because society doesn't value it the same. I mean, the laws historically haven't protected women who opt for that and get burnt. Now? Different story. Similarly, they don't take kindly to men who don't fall into the provider/protection role - or who are at the bottom of that hierarchy. In fact, it is those men who have issues generally with feminism. What they don't get is the fight that women who naturally don't align with that have to overcome way more than most men who are at the bottom of that hierarchy. I mean, that's truth. Most men, don't give a damn about feminism and I enjoy that about most men.

What escapes the men who go against feminism is that the women who push for it are not unlike themselves. Those women are providers for their families and by the way, you are privy to my life. It speaks to that. Difference is most women are harder on themselves than most men are. Women don't need to be vetted the same way men have to be groomed. Men are (sorry) a bit lazier than women. Stereotypes? Sure. I mean no disrespect. I mean men push each other that way. It brings out strength. When that formula is put towards women - we buck at it. We don't need it. It's hard to explain but it is what it is. I'm not saying those men who have the pressure of protection/provider are weak. I mean, it's hard af. They should want a strong woman. Some strong women help financially and assist in providing/protection and some assist in raising and caretaking.

You sign up for an all or nothing role??? Better not be bitter about honoring it.

In this respect, women and the men who hate feminism are similar. We are fighting ourselves rather than each other. We aren't that different but we are different in how the grooming should be done. Not the job itself!! It's hard to explain.

 

[kyuuei]

The politicians get to decide and I will do my best to make my preferred policy preference a reality. You should do the same.

Good luck with that. Lots of people have been on that crusade for, oh, all of humanity.. and still, the military has already broken that barrier down. I'm happy with the results, though I do still do my best within the VA system right now to fight for other veteran rights and needs. I believe I contributed to this barrier breakdown with my job and reports. I worked in a particularly interesting position just before I got out of the military that involved taking notes on already integrated militaries, and turned my findings in a few years before women started being allowed to train.

Anecdotal is an interesting way to characterize the data I presented female biology vs male biology. What happens when a female needs to oh I don't know drag a 200lb man out of a truck with body armor on. What happens when a female is faced with hand to hand combat in the field, I can think,of a million scenarios where the paucity of upper body strength and fighting prowess would be a near death sentence. Could Kyuuie beat me in,a fight?

- - - Updated - - -

I would beat her like a rented drum.

Wow. Really powerful words. One on one honorable fight? Yeah, you'd probably beat me. You're taller and stronger. I've been out of shape for well over a year now, and focusing more on academic things.. health and fitness has been more of a hobby than something that's core to my career. Nurses aren't known for being physical badasses necessarily. It'd be pretty objectively true that, unless someone is an MMA fighter or something, you'd probably beat anyone in my height/weight bracket. Even without your training. That's why they tend to separate MMA based on those stats. I think I maybe would have a chance with my long sword--but I think I have a year's worth of training on that in comparison to you, and I currently train fighting men larger than myself with that.

Though, in actuality? I believe you'd have your ass handed to you. Because I never fight fair. And, more importantly, I never go anywhere alone and tend to not enter fights alone either. You know where I was taught that? The Military. Military Police have a pretty infamous saying that we don't fight fair, and a 'fair' fight to us is 3 against 1. No one goes anywhere by themselves for a damned good reason. It's beaten into your brain from day 1 that you, and your battle buddy, go together. Everywhere, all the time. So, no, it would never be you vs me.. not unless you became some creepy stalker guy trying to attack me in my sleep or something. [MENTION=219]Metamorphosis[/MENTION] can attest that the groups we hang in would not just take any steps back and allow you to come anywhere near me one-on-one.

With that said... why are you fantasizing about fighting me in a physical fight -- enough to come back and update your post about just how awesome you are at fighting people half your size -- and bringing up the subject while simultaneously trying to crusade against women entering any fights at all? Seems a little counter productive.

Dude, you posted a, frankly a little disturbing, video to emphasize how much you're fantasizing about beating a woman half your size. Over a discussion about whether women should be in combat or not. Like, nothing you posted about me has anything to do with that.

I like you Disco. Always have. That's not a popular opinion on this forum either. But, truth, it's really creepy that you're fantasizing about beating me. I have no motivation, now or ever, to fight you. You clearly do.. which, whatever. But don't come near me with that shit. You want to have a discussion? Sure. But I draw the line right there. That's the kind of talk that comes from people who tend to actually try beating on people.

This was actually a legitimate excuse in my case. I considered either a career as an officer or in law enforcement but concluded I simply lacked the mindset required to put myself in those roles of authoritarian/subservience to hierarchy. I didn't want to follow rules I disagreed with, I didn't want to bust teenagers for having dimebags of marijuana, yadda yadda.

I am a crack shot with a rifle (and a bow and arrow), but there's a lot more to military/police service than shooting guns well. I'm not sure I could kill people under orders (I probably could, but I don't know what sort of psychological damage it would do to me), which sort of cancels out my skills with projectile weapons. Private Gomer Pyle was a talented rifleman but he too proved to be a poor soldier as far as the adjustment to that life goes.


Well, I suppose feminism makes room for wimpy dudes like me, so yay feminism?


Oh yeah, white feathers though.

Look, I didn't think to put disclaimers everywhere or elaborate much, but I have written here before that the military, just like any other job, has people who are NOT good fits for it. So, sorry if you took that comment to heart.

Most people don't like others telling them what to do. Some people truly do not do well with authoritarianism that is the military--I've seen it. And I think, generally speaking, people make okay calls on whether they should join or not. But, there are people every once in a while that talk shit that they can't back up. And that stereotype is in that comment. The way it usually comes about? The scenario is talking about being in the military, and the guy (usually a guy) interjects suddenly, "There's no way I'd survive basic training, I would have beaten that drill sergeant up no problem the first time he tried to tell me what to do! Punch right to the face!" and he proceeds to, sometimes, laugh and high-five his bros. He claims he cannot handle people telling him what to do and that's why he didn't join.. I generally find that to be a weak excuse when the actual context is clearly that they COULD handle it, but they simply have no aspirations for the military--but don't want to look lazy/weak/etc.. and that's not even talking about how weak it is that someone's initial reaction to everything is violence.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Good luck with that. Lots of people have been on that crusade for, oh, all of humanity.. and still, the military has already broken that barrier down. I'm happy with the results, though I do still do my best within the VA system right now to fight for other veteran rights and needs. I believe I contributed to this barrier breakdown with my job and reports. I worked in a particularly interesting position just before I got out of the military that involved taking notes on already integrated militaries, and turned my findings in a few years before women started being allowed to train.



Wow. Really powerful words. One on one honorable fight? Yeah, you'd probably beat me. You're taller and stronger. I've been out of shape for well over a year now, and focusing more on academic things.. health and fitness has been more of a hobby than something that's core to my career. Nurses aren't known for being physical badasses necessarily. It'd be pretty objectively true that, unless someone is an MMA fighter or something, you'd probably beat anyone in my height/weight bracket. Even without your training. That's why they tend to separate MMA based on those stats. I think I maybe would have a chance with my long sword--but I think I have a year's worth of training on that in comparison to you, and I currently train fighting men larger than myself with that.

Though, in actuality? I believe you'd have your ass handed to you. Because I never fight fair. And, more importantly, I never go anywhere alone and tend to not enter fights alone either. You know where I was taught that? The Military. Military Police have a pretty infamous saying that we don't fight fair, and a 'fair' fight to us is 3 against 1. No one goes anywhere by themselves for a damned good reason. It's beaten into your brain from day 1 that you, and your battle buddy, go together. Everywhere, all the time. So, no, it would never be you vs me.. not unless you became some creepy stalker guy trying to attack me in my sleep or something. [MENTION=219]Metamorphosis[/MENTION] can attest that the groups we hang in would not just take any steps back and allow you to come anywhere near me one-on-one.

With that said... why are you fantasizing about fighting in a physical fight -- enough to come back and update your post about just how awesome you are at fighting people half your size -- and bringing up the subject while simultaneously trying to crusade against women entering any fights at all? Seems a little counter productive.

Dude, you posted a, frankly a little disturbing, video to emphasis how much you're fantasizing about beating a woman half your size. Over a discussion about whether women should be in combat or not. Like, nothing you posted about me has anything to do with that.

I like you Disco. Always have. That's not a popular opinion on this forum either. But, truth, it's really creepy that you're fantasizing about beating me. I have no motivation, now or ever, to fight you. You clearly do.. which, whatever. But don't come near me with that shit. You want to have a discussion? Sure. But I draw the line right there.



Look, I didn't think to put disclaimers everywhere or elaborate much, but I have written here before that the military, just like any other job, has people who are NOT good fits for it. So, sorry if you took that comment to heart.

Most people don't like others telling them what to do. Some people truly do not do well with authoritarianism that is the military--I've seen it. And I think, generally speaking, people make okay calls on whether they should join or not. But, there are people every once in a while that talk shit that they can't back up. And that stereotype is in that comment. The way it usually comes about? The scenario is talking about being in the military, and the guy (usually a guy) interjects suddenly, "There's no way I'd survive basic training, I would have beaten that drill sergeant up no problem the first time he tried to tell me what to do! Punch right to the face!" and he proceeds to, sometimes, laugh and high-five his bros. He claims he cannot handle people telling him what to do and that's why he didn't join.. I generally find that to be a weak excuse when the actual context is clearly that they COULD handle it, but they simply have no aspirations for the military--but don't want to look lazy/weak/etc.. and that's not even talking about how weak it is that someone's initial reaction to everything is violence.

I know what it sounds like to you. I was describing everything dispassionately. You are one of my very favorite people on the forum. I'm just trying to say that I'm not going shade what I believe reality to be because of the inference you will take from it.

I know this single instance you find creepy, but think of all the years I've interacted with you. Have I ever given you a genuinely creepy vibe?

I would like to think I haven't. I had to use you because of your training and background to illustrate the point. I'm sorry if roping you into my attempt to make a point has made you uncomfortable.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

If it's worth anything, I'm sure there are a million things in this world that you are way fucking better at than me.

 

[kyuuei]

I know what it sounds like to you. I was describing everything dispassionately. You are one of my very favorite people on the forum. I'm just trying to say that I'm not going shade what I believe reality to be because of the inference you will take from it.

I know this single instance you find creepy, but think of all the years I've interacted with you. Have I ever given you a genuinely creepy vibe?

I would like to think I haven't. I had to use you because of your training and background to illustrate the point. I'm sorry if roping you into my attempt to make a point has made you uncomfortable.

To be very clear, it definitely did. It did not seem at all dispassionate--considering all the follow ups. Maybe the original post alone, but all the emphasis after it definitely. You haven't given me any creep vibes before, and I won't hold it against you now, but I do want to be very distinct that I do draw a line there.

If you want to discuss that point further.. most people in general, military or not, suck at fighting and have a chance to have their asses beat. There's always someone out there stronger than you. There is good reason the military assigns battle buddies and keeps people in high numbers. Because, man or woman, anyone my weight is not going up against someone in your weight class and expecting it to go well.

Having actually dragged someone 200 lbs with their gear on out of an ASV (if you don't know what that is, it sucks to get people out of), I can tell you it sucks and was harsh, but it is definitely possible to do and has already been done. I did train my ass off to ensure I could do feats of strength like that though, avoided engaging in it often so as not to break down my body, and I was happy to have help when it finally did show up. I may not be able to do some of the things larger men can... but I could do many things smaller men could not (we had a man 110 lbs in my unit.. he was a tiny thing, and we had a few below my weight class) .. and there is an advantage definitely to having people of all sizes in a group.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

To be very clear, it definitely did. It did not seem at all dispassionate--considering all the follow ups. Maybe the original post alone, but all the emphasis after it definitely. You haven't given me any creep vibes before, and I won't hold it against you now, but I do want to be very distinct that I do draw a line there.

If you want to discuss that point further.. most people in general, military or not, suck at fighting and have a chance to have their asses beat. There's always someone out there stronger than you. There is good reason the military assigns battle buddies and keeps people in high numbers. Because, man or woman, anyone my weight is not going up against someone in your weight class and expecting it to go well.

Having actually dragged someone 200 lbs with their gear on out of an ASV (if you don't know what that is, it sucks to get people out of), I can tell you it sucks and was harsh, but it is definitely possible to do and has already been done. I did train my ass off to ensure I could do feats of strength like that though, avoided engaging in it often so as not to break down my body, and I was happy to have help when it finally did show up. I may not be able to do some of the things larger men can... but I could do many things smaller men could not (we had a man 110 lbs in my unit.. he was a tiny thing, and we had a few below my weight class) .. and there is an advantage definitely to having people of all sizes in a group.

Do you want to know what men think about or what men think you want to hear we think about.

I've had these same thoughts forever, I just never felt comfortable expressing them because of the obvious and titanic blowback I would get for it.

If the goal is to connect and I never feel comfy enough to ever say whats honestly going on in my noodle, we don't get very far.

I find that the more honest you are, the more progress you can make. If someone as nice as I troubles you, isn't it better to inquire why and ask what they really think?

That's the only way we get to know anyone.

Painful discussions were we lay bare our honest thoughts about others and open ourselves to understanding are how you get people with disparate views to come together.

It takes trust, and I trust you, but it takes two people.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

And yes pulling a 200lb (before or after body armor?) guy out of an ASV is no joke. But I need to be able to have a convo where I can be honest about what I think to even get to the point where I'm willing to listen to you.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I know trying to attach intentions to others on a forum is a futile task, but I ask that the actions that I have taken during the time I've known you override the temporary anger you feel now.

 

[Mole]

Just as there is no Fijian Physics, and no Spanish Physics, or no Australian Physics, there is only Physics, then there is no female feminism, and no male feminism, there is only feminism.

Feminism is a new way of thinking and is independent of the gender of the thinker.

So pitting female against male is not feminism.

 

[Starry]

I always hope it swings less far on the next go around.

Thats how history works, you just hope your side is slightly better on the next go around than the last.

History is never finished, we just usually learn to fuck it up ever so slightly less than the last go around.

That's why I'm a conservative change should be iterative not revolutionary, except when absolutely necessary. That's why the right doesn't protest.

Because when we all do we want a revolution.

Thanks for the response - I appreciate it and will consider what you have said.

 

[Coriolis]

If the forum wants me to go I can leave. But I won't participate in the tea, ceremonies you call discussions where everyone hedges there arguments to pay obeisance to politeness or the mental prison I've been stuck in my whole life.

Is it really all-or-nothing with you? Tea ceremonies overrun with hedging and politeness, or attacks that generalize, belittle, and personalize everything? Is there nothing in between? Do you think it is impossible to be both honest and courteous, both candid and constructive?

It's not your views, Disco - it's you. There are other conservative members here who don't get the kind of pushback you get, because they can disagree with others without being disagreeable. They explain their own PoV rather than trying to twist someone else's words to score a point. They attack the argument, not the member. Even better, they don't have to attack. They question instead, ask about assumptions, speculate. It's not a zero-sum game. The goal isn't to win, but to learn, and especially in the real world, to solve real problems facing real people.

We're just an online forum. If we cannot figure this one out, what hope is there for the rest?

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Is it really all-or-nothing with you? Tea ceremonies overrun with hedging and politeness, or attacks that generalize, belittle, and personalize everything? Is there nothing in between? Do you think it is impossible to be both honest and courteous, both candid and constructive?

It's not your views, Disco - it's you. There are other conservative members here who don't get the kind of pushback you get, because they can disagree with others without being disagreeable. They explain their own PoV rather than trying to twist someone else's words to score a point. They attack the argument, not the member. Even better, they don't have to attack. They question instead, ask about assumptions, speculate. It's not a zero-sum game. The goal isn't to win, but to learn, and especially in the real world, to solve real problems facing real people.

We're just an online forum. If we cannot figure this one out, what hope is there for the rest?

I don't want to be a product of my environment. I want my environment to be a product of me.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I can't speak to why it's allowed.

I can:

 

[Smilephantomhive]

A year ago I was like yeah feminism is becoming less needed, but changed my mind after talking to some people on this site.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

One point I was hoping to make in my post was that both genders participate in the behavioral modification to keep social dynamics at status quo, whatever that happens to be in a society at a given time. It does make sense to use the same method to push back, although I don't know if I could put it into practice myself.

Well, there might be a risk in the workplace, but maybe in interpersonal relationships? If it's too much for someone, maybe that relationship isn't sustainable. Of course, the inertia of habit and the judgements of those around you can be powerful motivations on behavior.

 

[Coriolis]

A few observations:

1. Our constitutionally guaranteed free speech rights protect us from government control over what we say, not from limitations placed by private entities in private spaces. There has been much confusion on this as of late, both here and IRL.

2. Political views and personal values are not comparable to immutable personal characteristics like sexual orientation, race, sex/gender, nationality, etc. This means criticising what someone thinks is not comparable to criticising who they are. If you feel you are surrounded by people of dissimilar views, you can either take the opportunity to learn about their views, help them understand your views through reasoned and courteous explanation, or tell them they are all wrong because - of course - only you can be right. I'm sure there are other options, but the reader will get the gist.

3. Discussion need not be combative to be effective. Friction is one thing, but if its coefficient is high enough to prevent motion, no good comes out of it. Similarly, heated discussion should generate at least as much light. It is quite possible to assert unpopular opinions without attacking individuals, undermining one's own case with assumptions and hyperbole, or coming anywhere close to breaking forum rules. Of course, it all depends on one's purpose in speaking to begin with.