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Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

Totenkindly

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The Last Jedi was too complicated for most people to understand. It wasn't a straightforward Star Wars movie with a plot that moves from A to B. Such viewers confuse their subjective inability to understand it with their reasoning that it was an objectively bad movie. They haven't learned to distinguish their inner world from their outer world.

Yeah. I was not objective enough to understand it the two times I watched it, otherwise I'd appreciate it.

I'm glad that is cleared up.

...

Anyway, I'm up for seeing them use the money (if people pay it out) to actually give some new folks a shot with pet projects. Who knows where the next big idea will come from?
 

Mal12345

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Yeah. I was not objective enough to understand it the two times I watched it, otherwise I'd appreciate it.

I'm glad that is cleared up.

...

Anyway, I'm up for seeing them use the money (if people pay it out) to actually give some new folks a shot with pet projects. Who knows where the next big idea will come from?

I don't know if you understood it or not. But I know a guy at work, who is an author, who didn't understand it.
 

Totenkindly

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Okay.

I have now watched this film three times, in part because I try to be fair to films.

The third time is probably the most I've enjoyed it -- or at least feel like I have had a more nuanced viewing experience. In part, because the film really doesn't treat the first release with respect, it took some time to just take it on its own terms.

I still have some of the same issues with it that I have always had. For example, on a minor level, its sense of humor which is different from the typical tone of the film series -- sometimes it works, sometimes it bombs (like with the pointless cameo by Maz or the milking of the bird things or Luke teaching Rey how to "feel the force"). Rey supposedly gets better from training with Luke but we never really see her "training" and she's barely there for any reasonable length of time; this is not like Luke training with Yoda on Dagobah. The main plotline is pretty lame -- the "Resistance" is just fleeing the Imperial ships and almost crushed. There's a pointless assault on the dreadnaught AFTER THEIR PRINCESS AND GENERAL TELLS THEM NOT TO; like, do you guys even respect the chain of command + common sense? All the characters are separated. Finn's sideplot is pointless aside from suggesting (1) You can't trust anyone even if they seem like they're helping you and (2) I guess even when you're doing pointless things, you can still inspire the kids. Luke is too cranky compared to the "Return of the Jedi" demeanor, it was just too much. The BBEGs amount to nothing at all and don't even know their backstories. We don't really understand what that cave is under the island or what exactly it is telling Rey. Laura Dern is a shitty leader in terms of motivating followers. Etc. It just goes on.

At the same time, it didn't feel nearly as disjointed this time as in the past, and the egregious behavior was less than what I remembered. The problem with the sideplot is simply that they didn't find the right codebreaker and tried to make do with an unknown quantity -- and it was a return to gray, he did try to help them but sold them out when it looked like his life was on the line. I don't even know if Luke could have left his island at the end, that X-Wing had been underwater for years.

I really like the scenes with Rey and Ben. They feel like the core of the film. They are both survivors, both abandoned by the people whose love they desired, and they are the only Force users they know, both feeling like they are being manipulated or frustrated by more powerful figures. Ben is rational and detached (aside from his emotional outbursts), Rey is ethical and emotional, but aside from the personality differences they feel a strong kinship that only exacerbates their fracture at the film's end. I like how Ben doesn't seem in a "redemptive" place, he really seems okay with his decision -- he's burned everything down as destruction in order to create. Rey inevitably has also lost everything but she is using her freedom to pursue ideals from the past that she holds dear.... and she still has her friends. (it was a formative moment for her in The Force Awakens when Finn comes back for her... because it was her deepest wound and her parents never came back. Finn loves her because she believes in his best self; Rey loves him because he didn't abandon her.) I dunno, it just feels like a very Gen X / Millennial relationship with Ben and Rey, both are disillusioned with the old ways and are trying to find their way.

There's also small details I have missed in other viewings, like the boy using the Force to move the broom at the film's end. (it's barely noticeable unless you're paying attention.) And yes, the Jedi books are in the drawer in the Millennium Falcon at the film's end, so .... they didn't burn after all? The film improves a bit if you catch the details. I'm still kind of annoyed by it, because one really has to consider not just what the film is but also what it could have been out of a wide range of possibilities (it feels like it severely limited itself, focusing on irrelevant things). Like, really, what are you left with by the end? The film mainly just resets the story when it should have been pushing it towards something as the middle portion of the narrative; it's totally unclear what the next part will even be about.

Anyway, I was surprised that I had a more positive viewing experience this time regardless.
 

The Cat

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I like the Ben Rey aspects the best too. IT felt the most developed. I still maintain the new star wars would be better as a long running streaming series rather than movies for ti seems the amount of stuff theyre trying to tell
 

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Kathleen Kennedy Says Future Star Wars Films Will Move Away From Trilogies

I read that today -- apparently they have decided to move away from trilogies as a default. (It makes sense -- the trilogies are a 6-7 year commitment, and if the first one bombs or you get different directors in who do not follow a cohesive vision, well, this is what happens.) But I'm hoping this means they will start trying different ideas.

I discovered some hidden sales on Best Buy -- they are dumping a bunch of the 4K steelbox Marvel/Disney films for $15-20 apiece (normally they run $35, are rarely on sale, and they had the non-steelbox ones down to about $22-24 from $30, but that had been the best sale I had seen until today). These were running just in their inventory, NOT on the holiday sale list. So I broke down and bought this for $15 (along with Iron Man, Guardians of the Galaxy 1, and Captain Marvel -- I mean, $15 for a 4k Steelbox is pretty insane). It looked pretty good on the 4k TV with just the bluray, and it's absolutely gorgeous with the 4k disc -- especially the last twenty minutes or so with Luke and Ben dueling and the shots of Luke's island... like, almost wrenching an audible gasp from me. I just rewatched a few key scenes.

Yeah, even there at the end, after it feels like Ben has burned his bridges, and he sees Rey that last time and they look they give each other -- sadness, loss, not wanting to lose each other, but then Rey sorrowfully shuts the door on him and he visibly resigns himself.... It is just tremendous acting, their acts. I really love Adam Driver, he fascinates me -- he's been in a number of really great films (of various budgets and size) -- great in part because of his acting ability -- and I love that he is a man who has a somewhat flat/calm delivery but somehow manages to convey great emotion through just slight nuance of facial expression and voice tone.

After you watch the film a few times, there are just more things to pick up. Like, Poe's recklessness at the beginning is balanced by his thoughtfulness at the end, where Leia is finally willing to relinquish some leadership over to him. Ben tells Rey in their first connection that she couldn't be the one reaching out to him, because the strain would kill her; well, that's what happens to Luke at the end, it's the same distance and very difficult to project for so long; and he knew the effort would probably kill him but did it anyway.

Also, I don't think I mentioned it previously but it struck me watching now where they got "the Rise of Skywalker" title from for the third film, because there is this exchange in the middle of the film in Snoke's throneroom shortly before everything goes nuts:

Snoke: Come closer, child. So much strength. Darkness rises, and light to meet it. I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the light would rise. Skywalker... I assumed. Wrongly. Closer, I said.

I mean, it leaped out at me now because they had released the third film's title now.

I also am really curious about the implicit notion of balance. Snoke's comment describes balance -- that more darkness brings more light. Anakin did bring balance to the force, he killed a ton of jedi so that sith and jedi were about equal again. Rey senses balance in Luke's tutorial session. Luke is freaked out that Rey leaps down into the cave simply because it offered her something she needed, but although he is freaked out (like his experience in the cave when he saw a vision of darth vader as himself), she is completely non-plussed and does not have the same experience at him. It doesn't seem to have harmed her or tainted her, she seems resolutely dedicated to her friends and ideals.

Are we going to see a mix of jedi philosophy now in the next part? That maybe it's not all as black and white as it was always made out? Or are they going to go back to same old story?
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I really like the scenes with Rey and Ben. They feel like the core of the film. They are both survivors, both abandoned by the people whose love they desired, and they are the only Force users they know, both feeling like they are being manipulated or frustrated by more powerful figures. Ben is rational and detached (aside from his emotional outbursts), Rey is ethical and emotional, but aside from the personality differences they feel a strong kinship that only exacerbates their fracture at the film's end. I like how Ben doesn't seem in a "redemptive" place, he really seems okay with his decision -- he's burned everything down as destruction in order to create. Rey inevitably has also lost everything but she is using her freedom to pursue ideals from the past that she holds dear.... and she still has her friends. (it was a formative moment for her in The Force Awakens when Finn comes back for her... because it was her deepest wound and her parents never came back. Finn loves her because she believes in his best self; Rey loves him because he didn't abandon her.) I dunno, it just feels like a very Gen X / Millennial relationship with Ben and Rey, both are disillusioned with the old ways and are trying to find their way.

Luke is also disillusioned as well, so I'd argue that he plays into the theme, if not the generational aspect. Anyway, it's a large portion of the way the movie resonated with me so strongly, in a way I didn't quite expect it to.

Except for perhaps the bit with Hux at the very beginning, I do have to disagree with about the humor. I think the humor here felt the most like the O.T. humor out of any film since. It's a bit wacky, but the original films have lots of moments like that, such as for instance Ford kicking Chewbacca down the trash compactor. I can see why someone would be bothered by Luke's trolling, but I see it as having a precedent in Yoda's treatment of Luke when they first meet. Evidently disillusioned Jedi masters love to troll.

While we're at it, I like that that aspect of Yoda's personality was revisited during Yoda's scene, (although they extent of it is not available until later with the books. "They contained nothing she does not possess"... because she has the books). Yoda was handled pretty well here, and i honestly think Johnson did a better job with him than Lucas did in the prequels.



Part of me wishes that the bit with Luke at the very end had played out a little bit differently, but it probably would have been really tricky to have a really powerful ally character running around in the final installment. It's probably the same reason they had Yoda die of old age in the middle of ROTJ. Ben didn't originally die in ANH, either, and from what I know about that change it seems related to that issue.

One thing that does have me intrigued about the next movie is that it is the first time the new trio will be "on their own." What gives me trepidation is how they pull of Palpatine's return (although thinking about it more, I can see how it might help to tie together all the films as a whole, and it's not like it's in Legends where he turned Luke to the dark side or anything), and also what they do with Rey's origin.


I didn't really like that in TFA they had Han and Leia back to doing what they were doing when we first met them (although I suppose it makes sense in-universe); I actually feel like this one handled the original cast a lot better because it showed more in the way of character development.

i also suppose the interpretation of the movie is a lot different if you see the broom or the books, although Luke touches on it. Those were things I noticed on my first viewing, so I can see why someone might feel that it was saying that "none of this matters" if they didn't see that. It's interesting, though.... I find it very hard to see the broom when I watch it now. Surprised you were able to pick it up.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I like the Ben Rey aspects the best too. IT felt the most developed. I still maintain the new star wars would be better as a long running streaming series rather than movies for ti seems the amount of stuff theyre trying to tell

I'm very happy with the Mandalorian (as are most people, it seems), and I gotta say I really enjoy watching Star Wars unfold in this new medium. Episodes 4 and 5 were probably the weakest of the bunch, but Episode 6 was highly enjoyable.

 

Totenkindly

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Except for perhaps the bit with Hux at the very beginning, I do have to disagree with about the humor. I think the humor here felt the most like the O.T. humor out of any film since. It's a bit wacky, but the original films have lots of moments like that, such as for instance Ford kicking Chewbacca down the trash compactor. I can see why someone would be bothered by Luke's trolling, but I see it as having a precedent in Yoda's treatment of Luke when they first meet. Evidently disillusioned Jedi masters love to troll.

We probably agree on some of it -- like I said, it was not all the humor, some of it was fine even if slapstickish (I felt kinda bad for the poor frog matrons who had to keep cleaning up after Rey's various incidents). My sense of humor ranges pretty wide (puns, intellectual humor, slapstick, situational comedy, etc), but I still found some of it jarring and not funny. I think I just take issue where Johnson didn't give a shit about making his story mesh with other installments, I take collaboration very seriously; you can stretch the boundaries, sure, but Johnson really didn't seem to give a rat's ass at times about making a larger cohesive story and just did the things he personally felt like doing.

While we're at it, I like that that aspect of Yoda's personality was revisited during Yoda's scene, (although they extent of it is not available until later with the books. "They contained nothing she does not possess"... because she has the books). Yoda was handled pretty well here, and i honestly think Johnson did a better job with him than Lucas did in the prequels.

I was fine with Yoda, that all worked just fine.

Part of me wishes that the bit with Luke at the very end had played out a little bit differently, but it probably would have been really tricky to have a really powerful ally character running around in the final installment. It's probably the same reason they had Yoda die of old age in the middle of ROTJ. Ben didn't originally die in ANH, either, and from what I know about that change it seems related to that issue.

I think the whole point was to have one movie dedicated to each of the old three (Han, Luke, Leia), and Carrie Fisher just kinda gummed things up by passing on unexpectedly. ;) But yeah, each film was like a "closeout" on the old. So they didn't really plan to have Luke around after this, the torch needed to be passed -- that's the entire theme of the trilogy anyway.

Luke was old, I like that he did one last important thing, and then he saw something reminding him of Tattooine where he grew up, so he could be at peace as his body finally started to break down and he merged with the Force.

One thing that does have me intrigued about the next movie is that it is the first time the new trio will be "on their own." What gives me trepidation is how they pull of Palpatine's return (although thinking about it more, I can see how it might help to tie together all the films as a whole, and it's not like it's in Legends where he turned Luke to the dark side or anything), and also what they do with Rey's origin.

I didn't try to read anything involving Palpatine and have tried not to think about it. I'll just let that play out when I see it on Thursday.


i also suppose the interpretation of the movie is a lot different if you see the broom or the books, although Luke touches on it. Those were things I noticed on my first viewing, so I can see why someone might feel that it was saying that "none of this matters" if they didn't see that. It's interesting, though.... I find it very hard to see the broom when I watch it now. Surprised you were able to pick it up.

It always looked weird (like something was off) but I wasn't quite sure why, then I read about it in a synopsis in passing, and went back and rewatched. My TV is a bit larger now (65") and I noticed it on the 4K version -- so maybe it was obvious in the theater, but on home view on smaller sets, harder to pick up.

I still wondering whether it was really the Force or just some sloppy stagehand work because the kid couldn't reach the broom. If he meant to do it, it should have been made a bit more noticeable -- I mean, it's kind of a big thing.
 

Totenkindly

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Star Wars rewatch: The Last Jedi destroys a legend to rebuild it | EW.com

A bit brutal, but it's not personal -- the writer watched all the Star Wars films over the last month or two in a look back and didn't really pull punches with any. I think I noted the contradiction in a roundabout way, when it feels like the movie wants to tear down the Jedi, yet it ends with an affirmation of the Jedi (with Rey and from Luke's own mouth), and as one example the tree is burned down and the sacred texts lost and criticized by Yoda, but hey wait, Rey actually took them so they're not lost at all! And the last image is of a potential jedi boy looking at the stars.

So what was the point of what was being conveyed? The film pretends to tear down a lot of stuff but in the end kind of veers right back at it.
 

The Cat

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Star Wars rewatch: The Last Jedi destroys a legend to rebuild it | EW.com

A bit brutal, but it's not personal -- the writer watched all the Star Wars films over the last month or two in a look back and didn't really pull punches with any. I think I noted the contradiction in a roundabout way, when it feels like the movie wants to tear down the Jedi, yet it ends with an affirmation of the Jedi (with Rey and from Luke's own mouth), and as one example the tree is burned down and the sacred texts lost and criticized by Yoda, but hey wait, Rey actually took them so they're not lost at all! And the last image is of a potential jedi boy looking at the stars.

So what was the point of what was being conveyed? The film pretends to tear down a lot of stuff but in the end kind of veers right back at it.

Pretty spot on.
 

Totenkindly

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Oh yeah -- I noticed that Arya on GoT ripped off Rey's move from the throneroom battle.

It was so similar that I gotta wonder whether D&D were watching The Last Jedi while scripting that. It wouldn't surprise me, since they were being prepped to create their own Star Wars movie cycle until they got on the Netflix train and Disney told them to hike off.
 

Totenkindly

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Apparently I did get excited about THe Rise of Skywalker because I did watch the first two films again on Thursday before I went to TROS last evening. (Kind of a waste, all things considered.)

I am finding TLJ to be a film I had to watch multiple times (with a fair amount of distance) in order to pick up everything. In part I think it's because Johnson doesn't necessarily telegraph the character's thought processes so that they are more emotionally obvious. This can sometimes result in seemingly baffling behavior that later might make a lot more sense if you're able to get into a character's head better later -- which repeated viewings can contribute to.

Okay, with Rose: I remember being completely baffled by her decision to ram Finn off his suicide run towards the cannon on Crait. Not only did it logistically seem a bit of a stretch (like, how could Finn go straight, but somehow Rose veers way off, then suddenly veers way back -- covering a lot more distance in the same length of time -- and still hit him), but it felt more like a sentimental copout, like the writer just didn't want to sacrifice Finn and/or they wanted some sentimental scene with Rose and Finn.

As with most of these, something clicked in my last viewing that now makes it all seem obvious but for some dumb reason it just never clicked for me previously. Her sister dies on a suicide run in the opening of the film, trying to kill the things she hates, and Rose is still deeply hurting over that lost. See, to me, destroying the cannon is a logically obvious move, and derailing Finn's plan could result in the death of everyone. However, I understand Rose is a more emotional character, and remember that this is exactly how she lost her sister in the opening of the film (on a suicide run that didn't seem to accomplish much strategically), it makes total sense why she would try to save Finn. (It's at the same point in the film too where we see Poe become more sensible from a leadership perspective, rather than a hotshot flyboy who focuses on blowing things up.) She doesn't want to win if it means losing everyone she loves -- what kind of victory is that? She wants to save the resistance FOR people she cares about, not just to save it. (It's still kind of framed melodramatically, but whatever.)

Probably nothing from repeated viewings is going to explain Holdo to me -- why she purposefully treats Poe with disdain and with a much more authoritarian style of leadership, then suddenly "likes him" and "oh had a plan all along" -- since a good leader knows how to engage non-conforming underlings in constructive ways. It feels like an attempt to showcase "mansplaining" + set up the later plot of having Holdo ram the flagship. However, as another synopsis points out, Poe's talking about the plan earlier within earshot of DJ (who we already know from the prison cell likes to eavesdrop) is what allows him to trade information and sell out the resistance later... so the answer is not as simple as sharing details with subordinates. It's just Dern's character scans poorly on the surface.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Probably nothing from repeated viewings is going to explain Holdo to me -- why she purposefully treats Poe with disdain and with a much more authoritarian style of leadership, then suddenly "likes him" and "oh had a plan all along" -- since a good leader knows how to engage non-conforming underlings in constructive ways. It feels like an attempt to showcase "mansplaining" + set up the later plot of having Holdo ram the flagship. However, as another synopsis points out, Poe's talking about the plan earlier within earshot of DJ (who we already know from the prison cell likes to eavesdrop) is what allows him to trade information and sell out the resistance later... so the answer is not as simple as sharing details with subordinates. It's just Dern's character scans poorly on the surface.

When I first saw the movie, I never really saw the thing with Holdo as being about mansplaining. I saw a lot of analyses and reviews lean into that fact later. He says she's "not what I expected" when they first meet, which I suppose could be taken as referring to the fact that she's a woman, but couldn't it also be the fact that she dies her hair purple, giving her a sort of eccentric presentation? I took it as him being both headstrong by nature and unsure of what to make of this outsider, rather than it being about her being a woman. After all, it's not like he leads a mutiny against Leia.

Anyway, even if Holdo's motivations don't make sense, I prefer that subplot to the prospect of hanging out in an asteroid cave again.

I also like that Leia and Poe kind of have a mother-son dynamic, and that you could interpret it as Poe being a sort of surrogate son for her.
 

Totenkindly

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I didn't really see the purple hair as that surprising, because they are dealing with zillions of species that don't even look human all the time. What is purple hair, compared to all that?

I dunno, it was like as SOON as I saw it in the film, I felt like Johnson was presenting a fabricated social commentary. Maybe I'm more sensitive to it. it just felt out of place because I never felt like the Star Wars world had an issue with that, because as I noted the universe is SO diverse, and I don't feel like the main women in the movies have ever been treated that way. It's usually just the poor twilek slave girls, but the female resistance leaders are typically respected. Maybe "Solo" had a bit, because Kira felt like she had to prove herself in the world she moved through.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I didn't really see the purple hair as that surprising, because they are dealing with zillions of species that don't even look human all the time. What is purple hair, compared to all that?

I mean, sure it must exist, but maybe in that world, as well as our own, it's not really expected of military leaders.
 

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Vice Admiral Gender Studies heehee

In all seriousness though, she was a terrible leader. Her sex and gender had nothing to do with this, because really she just felt like one of those stubborn, arrogant sort of male police chief characters who butt heads with protagonists in old school cop action. So Poe may be a bit of a hot shot flyboy but he’s also the head fighter pilot. It stands to reason you’d want to include one of your department heads or division commanders in any important strategizing and keep them up to date on any relevant info. She’d have probably avoided a mutiny had she done so.

Mutinies on old school naval ships had been an interest of mine for a while. She was basically a softer spoken version of William Bligh, in that she was gifted as a military/naval commander yet had terrible interpersonal skills which led to poor morale and eventually mutiny

But I’m obviously too stupid to understand what Johnson was going for with Holdo
 

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Anyway, I was out doing Christmas shopping and I was thinking a little bit about Poe's storyline in the movie and the reason why I like it.

First, to get this out of the way, regarding the issue of it being a political statement, I'll just say that it doesn't make a great deal of sense in universe for Poe reasons for Holdo not being what he expected to be about gender. Poe works with Leia, who is a woman. Why would he be surprised that another military leader he never met turn out to be female? The interpretation of that line as being about sexism doesn't really make sense for the particular character, because he's used to working with a female general.

Ok, now on to the meat of my defense of the Poe Holdo storyline. There's this trope in American popular culture of a character ignoring the orders of superiors and ending up saving the day and getting praised by everyone for it. At least half the time, it turns out that the superior is corrupt or outright working for the bad guys, as though anyone who disagrees with the totally awesome hero must be evil even if the superior makes more sense than the hero. Especially in cases like that, I tend to find the hero annoying.

Here, though, Poe appears to be doing this trope, but Poe turns out to be wrong. Holdo actually isn't a traitor and actually had the better the plan (whether her reasons for not divulging made sense or not is something that perhaps could be discussed elsewhere... personally it's something I find I can roll with, but other people can roll with things about these movies I can't, so it's just a personal preference). By being a loose cannon who didn't play by the rules, all Poe did was get a bunch of people killed. Poe's storyline is not about trying to be "woke" for me, but about turning tired cliches of blockbuster filmmaking that I personally find annoying on their head.

It's also interesting to note that even though the OT is about rebellion vs. authority, the tired old trope doesn't actually surface once. There's no single case of somebody in the OT disobeying an order and saving the day because they disobeyed the order. You don't even see Solo do this, even though he says "I take orders from just one person."

Now, the PT has Qui-Gon Jinn, but that kind of goes what I was referring to earlier with the intention behind the character being modeled. The thing is, from the point of view of the films, the Jedi Council appears to be right to not have trained Anakin. I guess the intention is that if a Jedi like Qui-gon had trained Anakin instead of the more severe (which is kind of a retcon, but whatever) , less compassionate, and less experienced Obi-wan, Anakin wouldn't have turned, but I don't think the films really establish this successfully. It could have maybe worked to set this up if they'd shown more scene of Obi-Wan interacting with Anakin in TPM so that we could directly see a contrast to Qui-Gon, but I suppose Jar-Jar was "they key to all this" so that was not important.

I suppose if the Qui-Gon stuff were better done, and a sort of strained, more formal (or stricter) relationship with Obi-Wan was well established while Qui-Gon was still around to contrast it with, it would show why "playing by your own rules" was justified in this case, and thus, it would be a successful and well-done example of this trope. Instead we get something that (unintentionally, I suspect) reads as a subversion, since Qui-Gon's insistence on Anakin's training gets all the Jedi killed.

I think the trope bothers me because the authority figures the hero is totally awesome for disobeying usually make more sense than the hero. Like, the stories seem to be saying: Isn't it totally terrible when people with a lot of responsibility expect people under them to do things that make sense in high-stakes situations? Much of the time, it boils down to the suggestion that the expecting people to act rationally rather than encouraging them to act stupidly and impulsively is actively evil.

So, in summary, I like Poe's story because I see it as about deconstructing and subverting something I usually hate, rather than trying to insert a political "hot topic" where it doesn't actually belong.
 

The Cat

Just a Magic Cat who hangs out at the Crossroads.
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The remake of Battlestar does the best job imo of capturing the feel of military heirarchy in a realistic manner. Stargate was good too though I felt a little idealized because they were actually using the brand of the USAF. But believe it or not as far as accurate interpersonal dynamics was the first season of Red vs Blue. That kind of base line fuckoffery that is so true during the down time moments when nothing is going to literal hell around you. There's these conversations:

 
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