Balancing Work + School

[ChocolateMoose123]

OK, then. It looks like you're looking at the more mathematical/logical side of physics, especially statistical physics.

If this is your dream, then the main requirement is that you can finance it, not that it necessarily produces financial rewards greater than you put into it. I'd still stick with saying that either work or school has to be part time. School, for me, was ALWAYS more demanding than any job I've ever had, and the jobs had the bonus of paying me money. Financially, full time work and part time school will be easier, since that gives you your full income so you burn savings a lot more slowly, and it might be better scholastically as it helps to keep the classwork from being overwhelming. The main advantage of part time work and full time school is getting school over with faster.

As for evaluating the overall plan, just how good are you at solving "word problems"? That is the main difference I've observed between those who excel at physics (and "quant reasoning" in general) vs those who go into other sciences or engineering. Chemistry, biology and engineering are based more on memorization and mastery of facts, where details already learned are more important than new things that you might discover. Mathematics is at the other extreme, where there are "word problems" but they tend to be very abstract instead of practical real-world things. Economics is another possibility, but in my opinion economists tend to overestimate the value of math and quantitative reasoning in economic decision making.

In physics, you can pose a problem such as, for example, "A cube of ice is floating in a glass filled up halfway with water. When the ice melts, will the water level be higher, lower or the same? Explain your reasoning." To get an idea how difficult this problem is (even if the answer is obvious to you), a variation of it was posted on INTJf, and even the smartest of INTJs and INTPs who prize their math/logic/science skills were struggling with it. They've taken physics. They know how to do free body diagrams. They know how to do advanced calculus. But give them a word problem like this, and they freeze (pun intended!), or fumble through all sorts of reasoning/guesses without focus. Or they "intuitively know" the answer, but cannot explain it well at all.

This is the level of reasoning you'd need for your dream job, because you want to translate between the quantitative realm of numbers and the real-life realm of real-world problems. Also, as I mention for economics, you'll need to understand the limits of quantitative reasoning in a very humble way: lots of real world topics, especially political/economic policy, do not respond well to quantitative reasoning. Society and laws comprise a very complex network of interactions that we take for granted and we naively think can be easily altered to our preferences without serious and potentially harmful consequences elsewhere in the system. If Syria were a cube of ice floating in a glass half full of water, we'd have solved that problem a long time ago.

I'm not a physicist nor do I desire to be but use a bit of hands on physics with engine work. If I was asked that question I would say that when melted the water level remained the same. As the mass of the cube equals the volume displaced when melted.

But if this is a 2 + 2 = 5 kinda thing I'm outta my element.

 

[Bush]

If the university has it, take distance learning, even if the university's local. Usually involves the prof recording and then posting his lectures on the net. You could do most of the work whenever you want

 

[ceecee]

You have my sympathy. I worked full time for about a year and full time school hours. That was insane. Our kids were much younger then, we moved in the middle of it. I had to lean on my ENFJ no matter how much I hated to do it. I remember one night he carried me to bed - I fell asleep right on my books and my dinner plate full of food. I have one BS and one AAS (which is all I really needed to get into the field). It would be totally pointless for me to go any further with a masters, even in health care admin or medical informatics.

 

[Ivy]

If you're going to be that chemist, then let me try at being that sociologist and say that I've always been irked by the left end of this chart. I don't think it's accurate to say sociology is applied psychology. I think they'd be at about the same point on this dimension.

A treatise on this topic from two of the top minds in the field, Dr.Octagon and Uncircumcised Chewbacca:

To the thread topic- I guarantee I would not be able to do what you're proposing, but you're about a decade younger, and you sound like you have a clear vision of what you want to do with the degree you're seeking. Temporary is temporary. It'll be rough but if anybody has the drive I suspect it's you.

 

[Giggly]

There was another period where I did this as well. I studied for the CPA exam for six months a year or so after graduating. My memory of that was much worse than the masters, in terms of how hard it was. Again, same thing - just studying and work mostly - which was difficult because I was 24 all my friends were having a good time.

I am doing this now. I have no life, but no one else who's doing it does either.

I say go for it, Rex. Why? Because there is no better time than the present. Do it.

I know plenty of people who work full-time and go to school as well. If they can do it, you can too, and a few years is just a blip in the grand scheme of your life.

 

[miss fortune]

I've been going to school fulltime while working a minimum of 44 hours a week for the last year (though currently taking a semester off to figure out what it is that I really want and what I really want to do)... and I'm 32, so 27 isn't too old for anything

it's challenging and I've had to tell myself that it's a challenge and I'll kick its ass because most people CAN'T do it. I can't imagine how people with kids manage such things, but some do and I'm in awe of that.

I got in the habit of rewarding myself with something that I wanted each time I studied a certain number of hours for something and forcing myself to stick to that... and taking notes on everything because if I wrote it down it was easier to remember. Made a lot of flashcards too because I could review them on break at work before tests to keep it fresh in my mind. I also have made sure to schedule time to enjoy myself and NOT work or study into the week because having a life is necessary...

it's tough, but you can do it and still feel alive

 

[SearchingforPeace]

If the university has it, take distance learning, even if the university's local. Usually involves the prof recording and then posting his lectures on the net. You could do most of the work whenever you want

I would highly discourage distance learning for anyone. A few years ago I happened to meet with an expert in the field and spent hours with him talking about the subject.

For long term retention and understanding, distance learning is an absolute disaster. He said a drunk frat boy sleeping off a hangover will retain and learn more long term than the most diligent student in a distance learning course, who did all the work, utilized every study aid, and put in maximum effort. Schools are only moving that way to maximize revenue and reduce costs.

 

[Bush]

I would highly discourage distance learning for anyone. A few years ago I happened to meet with an expert in the field and spent hours with him talking about the subject.

For long term retention and understanding, distance learning is an absolute disaster. He said a drunk frat boy sleeping off a hangover will retain and learn more long term than the most diligent student in a distance learning course, who did all the work, utilized every study aid, and put in maximum effort. Schools are only moving that way to maximize revenue and reduce costs.

I don't see anything wrong with being given the lectures via video on top of the option to come see the lectures in person..?

 

[pinkgraffiti]

This year, I made the decision to take the plunge and go back to school. I have a full-time job that's pretty demanding, and had been hoping that I would be able to manage both at the same time. I'll be in summer school starting in June to knock out a few prereqs before starting the application process and have been making an effort to get back into the habit of studying for at least an hour a night. So far, it has not gone well.

I finish work and I'm just wiped at the end of the day. It makes me really really concerned about how realistic my plan to work while in school actually is. I love my job, and don't want to leave it, so I'm torn about whether school is actually the right choice after all. That said, I'm planning to take my career in a slightly different direction than what I've done up until now, and the trajectory I've charted will take at least 4-5 years to complete. I'm going to be 27 in June, so I feel this is probably my last real window to make a "big move" like this realistically.

Does anyone have any experience with this?

Hi! I changed careers drastically two years ago (im a couple of years older than you). I'm such a happier person today, and I only know that now after having changed drastically, because before I thought my dissatisfaction with my career was a normal feeling, I didn't realize I could feel much happier, more alive and motivated.

Your experience is a little bit different from mine, because you like your job. But we have a point of convergence: You too want to follow a dream of yours. That's great and from my experience it is so important that you take it seriously and allow yourself to feel totally happy and fulfilled.
It's only my opinion, but still : I don't think you will be able to fully enjoy both things. You're going to have to set priorities. If you had this dream of going back to school, in my opinion, follow it! Work part-time if you can (oh shit...maybe you are American and Americans don't do part-time!?)...but really, be honest with yourself about what really makes you happy and what your priorities are. It seemed crazy to me when I read your post that you were doing school + full-time job (hey, if it's called "full time" it's because it leaves no free time!) + working hard. Wtf!?

Oh btw: I have been wanting to change careers since I was 20. Everytime I thought about it I was afraid it was too late. I thought it was late at 20, I thought it was late at 24 and should have done it at 20, I thought I was late when I was 28 and should have done it at 24. So then I thought: "wtf...im going to be 40 and be thinking that I should have done it at 30, 50 thinking I should have done it at 40 etc.....I have to do it now!"
Bottom line: Never too late. Seriously. Do it now.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

I don't see anything wrong with being given the lectures via video on top of the option to come see the lectures in person..?

From what I was told, it was specifically the totally online courses, but I would suspect it would somewhat in a hybrid case. After all, someone watching a video is usually not as focused at home as if they went to class and sat in the lecture hall and had the opportunity to interact during the lecture.

I have known a few people who taught online courses and they find them to be worthless in their experience.

From what the expert said, there were studies showing different brainwave activity between a distance learning student and a traditional in class student, which he said resulted in the different outcomes. I haven't read any of the literature myself and he had worked in online education for many years and he still thought it was a bad option.

 

[á´…eparted]

@Wind Up Rex the ENTP physics person I mentioned initially replied and he said (word for word)

they're pretty much nuts

getting a degree in physics is a full time job and a half

it's literally like a 60+ hour a week job

Take it as you will. Seems like you're getting somewhat mixed responses here from people. One constant I have noticed though is no one is saying not to try. I say: go for it, see what happens. You very well might be able to pull it off. Also, remember: if it ends up working out, that's ok. This is going to be one of the hardest things you ever have done (if not THE hardest thing). It's going to be a challenge.

Don't do the 8 thing though and run yourself into the ground, I will be having none of that . We all do have limits, including you.

 

[1487610420]

I don't see anything wrong with being given the lectures via video on top of the option to come see the lectures in person..?

2x time investment

 

[Bush]

From what I was told, it was specifically the totally online courses, but I would suspect it would somewhat in a hybrid case. After all, someone watching a video is usually not as focused at home as if they went to class and sat in the lecture hall and had the opportunity to interact during the lecture.

I have known a few people who taught online courses and they find them to be worthless in their experience.

From what the expert said, there were studies showing different brainwave activity between a distance learning student and a traditional in class student, which he said resulted in the different outcomes. I haven't read any of the literature myself and he had worked in online education for many years and he still thought it was a bad option.

Yeah, the totally online courses -- that is, those that are only offered online -- are absolute garbage. Shame on the system for making those a thing

You're totally right about the DL disadvantage. In a hybrid course, the disadvantage that DL students is that lack of interaction. And it's a huge disadvantage. Actual conversation and exchanging of ideas is very, very important at the grad level -- as grad school is (or should be) less about rote memorization and more about actual discourse.

I can't buy into the motivation piece. I know it's a thing.. but I simply can't buy into it. Freshman-level courses often have mandatory attendance so that students are made more likely to pay attention. Regular quizzes ensure that students study regularly. But if you're at the grad level, you're expected to have a healthy amount of self-discipline.

(From the other side of the lectern, I'm proud to say that I've had pretty good success in teaching these 'hybrid' courses. I personally pour my heart into paving a level playing field from the beginning, and I try my hardest to close the gap between DL and in-class students. I can't say the same for every professor out there, but I do hope that most at least recognize that there is a difference between the two groups.)


So. The long and short. Online-only courses are terrible. But in-class can be way too constraining.

The optimal way for a student to go, at least at a local university, and at least at the grad level -- is to sign up as a DL student, but attend class as much as possible. Bam; you're an in-class student but you also have lectures to fall back upon. Many of my students have done that. I did it several times myself when I was going grad-level myself. (And at one point, I had two required courses that were in the same timeslot. )

And that's what I advocate if the option's available.

 

[boomslang]

I can't be arsed reading the whole thread because there's so many posts, but I'm no stranger to juggling obligations, so if you have specific questions, quote here or PM or whatev.

 

[Coriolis]

[MENTION=7254]Wind Up Rex[/MENTION]:

There has already been much good advice dispensed in this thread. I will first agree with everyone who encourages you to go for it. However you decide to make it work, do it. It is well worth the effort.

And physics? Take it from someone with a PhD in it who went through 12 years of higher education in physics: you really need to know what you're getting into.

What is your degree FOR? To find a career in physics? There are no careers in physics except for those who are VERY GOOD at it, or are willing to work at crappy jobs in the hopes that they might find something that eventually fits.

Is it for the STEM degree itself? There are other STEM degrees that are easier that will garner as much respect. But even then, that's no guarantee of anything. I've heard remarks 3rd-hand along the lines of HR types saying, "A PhD in physics? What does that have to do with software development in banking?"

So ... I'm not trying to talk you out of anything, but I am currently very skeptical of the value of "getting a degree" vs "learning new skills and changing careers". The latter usually doesn't require exorbitant amounts of money.

What is your primary career goal? That's kind of key, here. Why do you need a degree as opposed to training/certification?

I will continue by disagreeing with some of the above. First the highlighted is just plain wrong. I am a counterexample, and a hardly exceptional. I doubt I fit Uumlau's definition of "very good" (not about to win a Nobel prize any time soon), but I have a great job (bad management notwithstanding) and have always done well at it. My organization employs people with physics backgrounds from undergrad through PhD. There is strong support to get an advanced degree, but it is not at all required. That being said, there are many jobs outside of physics where a physics background is very helpful. Some of these have already been mentioned, and the one you are considering is an example. Second, I don't see any problem with getting a degree that doesn't have obvious directly applicable job skills, but is simply something you want to study. That, after all, is the real purpose of a university, not simply nuts and bolts job training. Sure, it behooves you to make sure pursuing it won't mess up the rest of your life, but just the fact that you are asking these questions and looking for advice shows you have that covered.

I will agree, though, that you do need to understand what you are getting yourself into. Taking a class or two this summer will be good for that. I did it before starting my masters. The work is uncompromisingly demanding and time consuming, which means you really have to be committed to it, and very good at time management. You mentioned somewhere not having felt comfortable in an academic environment during your college years. Knowing where you attended I can understand that. I think you will find the atmosphere in a physics and other technical subjects quite different, though. Much less politics and drama, much more focus on getting through the work, and even helping each other.

Some additional points:

1. After finishing my master's degree I went to work in a physics job. My employer covered the cost of job-related courses, so I took 10 courses over about 2+ years, at a university on a quarter system. I took 2 courses together only once while working full time, and determined never to do it again. I basically had no time to do anything else. Consider, too, that I was already with my INTP, so had another person to pick up the slack around home if I was having a busy week: cook food, run errands, etc. Granted, these were graduate level classes, but the undergrad ones may feel the same since you don't have background in it yet.

2. As others have mentioned, it will probably work out best (or at all) if you do something part time. If you are in school PT and work FT, you will have more money but finish later. If you work PT and do school FT, the reverse. This might be an opton if you can save up money to cover part of your expenses, or significantly scale back your spending, either by moving in with family if that is feasible, getting a roommate, etc. I had little trouble financially because even when doing my masters, before I had met my INTP, I lived with my parents for free. Also grad students will usually get assistantships that cover tuition and pay a small salary. For undergrad degrees, though, this isn't the case. Does your current employer know about your plans to go back to school? If they do and are supportive, you might be able to arrange some alternative, say working 30 hours/week.

3. IME, physics and math classes take AT LEAST one hour of work outside of class for each hour of class time; often more.

4. However you arrange the work/school balance, find a study group. It makes a huge difference to be able to compare notes with other students, and help each other with problem sets and studying. This cannot be overemphasized. Also, use your instructors. Go to their office hours early and often, as soon as you find you are having trouble with something. Not only does this get you help, it shows them you are a serious student, which rarely does one's grade any harm.

5. People can change careers any time, if they are willing to put the time and effort (and occasionally money) into it. My INTP's mother had a good career in real estate, then after her kids finished college, went back herself to become a social worker. An interesting experience since most of her classmates were younger than her own kids.

If you have more specific questions, don't hesitate to ask here, or PM.

For the record, that is my usual approach. Fortunately, I need to solve technical/software problems, so I can just write up a quickie prototype to prove that a concept works or not, without having to "prove" anything theoretically.

I used to have arguments like this all the time with a colleague. I would be trying to persuade him that my way of setting up or troubleshooting an experiment was the better way or only way that would work. I would usually end up telling him: just go in the lab and try it. In an hour or so it will be clear whether I am right.

If you're going to be that chemist, then let me try at being that sociologist and say that I've always been irked by the left end of this chart. I don't think it's accurate to say sociology is applied psychology. I think they'd be at about the same point on this dimension.

As a physicist, I have no objection if the sociologists wish to combine with the psychologists at the far left of the chart.

 

[senza tema]

Realistically, one or the other is going to have to take a hit. When I was working full time, I had little to no time for my nerdy academic pursuits. Now that I'm back in school, I cannot imagine working full time (heck, even 20 hours a week would feel like a huge burden, not to mention that I feel like I don't even have time for a relationship much less a job.)

I have a feeling you're better at handling a busy schedule and multi-tasking than me but I would advise you to scale down wherever you can, just because you're going to burn out if you keep going at an unsustainable rate. And burnout usually ends up derailing you in all aspects of your life, not just one ...

That said, your dream is really cool and you're really smart ... so I hope you find a way to make it real.

 

[Evo]

I'm working 32 hrs, and taking 4 classes, 28 yrs old and have a long ass commute. It's not that bad, the only thing that's suffered is my sleep so far. But I really enjoy learning, so it's worth it to me.

 

[uumlau]

@Wind Up Rex the ENTP physics person I mentioned initially replied and he said (word for word)

they're pretty much nuts

getting a degree in physics is a full time job and a half

it's literally like a 60+ hour a week job

Take it as you will. Seems like you're getting somewhat mixed responses here from people. One constant I have noticed though is no one is saying not to try. I say: go for it, see what happens. You very well might be able to pull it off. Also, remember: if it ends up working out, that's ok. This is going to be one of the hardest things you ever have done (if not THE hardest thing). It's going to be a challenge.

Don't do the 8 thing though and run yourself into the ground, I will be having none of that . We all do have limits, including you.

It's not a 60+ hour a week job unless you're not actually cut out for it. Most people find physics to be very difficult because they don't learn to think like a physicist:

http://www.colorado.edu/physics/phys4810/phys4810_fa06/4810_readings/vh1.pdf
https://www.fiatphysica.com/blog/learning/how-to-think-like-a-physicist-critical-thinking-skills
https://www.reddit.com/r/Physics/comments/2ma1lt/how_to_think_like_a_physicist/

Using the video as an example, physics is hard if you don't develop an intuition about it. Without intuition, you'd have to go through several steps of analysis to solve the problem; with intuition, you can reduce the problem to "What is 2x5?"

The only courses that caused me problems were the ones where I couldn't develop an intuition about them quickly. I developed that intuition later on, but not soon enough to help me in those particular courses.

In short, if you find yourself "studying" formulas and step-by-step procedures for solving problems, you are going to have a very hard time with physics in the long run. If instead, you can "just look at a problem" and see how it fits together, and from that write down an equation that describes it, you'll do fine.

E.g., the floating ice cube problem. If you look at it and start building free body diagrams, mapping forces and vectors, keeping track of densities and volumes, it becomes a hideously difficult problem. But if you look at it and think, "Ice is just water. Wait a minute! That means when the ice melts, it will occupy the same amount of water as it's already displacing. Therefore the level doesn't change." THEN you're thinking like a physicist. Without the intuition to discover shortcuts and to quickly determine what kind of results would be complete nonsense, you'll spend all your time grinding numbers without context and getting lost.

 

[iwakar]

This year, I made the decision to take the plunge and go back to school. I have a full-time job that's pretty demanding, and had been hoping that I would be able to manage both at the same time. I'll be in summer school starting in June to knock out a few prereqs before starting the application process and have been making an effort to get back into the habit of studying for at least an hour a night. So far, it has not gone well.

I finish work and I'm just wiped at the end of the day. It makes me really really concerned about how realistic my plan to work while in school actually is. I love my job, and don't want to leave it, so I'm torn about whether school is actually the right choice after all. That said, I'm planning to take my career in a slightly different direction than what I've done up until now, and the trajectory I've charted will take at least 4-5 years to complete. I'm going to be 27 in June, so I feel this is probably my last real window to make a "big move" like this realistically.

Does anyone have any experience with this?

Well, I worked full-time while I went to grad school full-time to get my Master's 2014/2015. I'm also a single parent. I have had family help, mind you. Nonetheless it was and is still hard, but it can be done. I also did very well in my program, but in truth, my program wasn't particularly academically demanding (I don't think that's humility, it just wasn't). It helped that I loved what I was doing. I'm now about to start my first professional position with said Master's in 10 days. Maybe my story is atypical (I hear it is), but I got my first interview a month after graduation, and will start the job within 2 months of graduation. Clearly for me, the last two years of insane activity has been worth it and will be a significant pay increase and quality of life change for me and my 3 year old.

I think there are a lot of axes on which your scenario can spin which will or won't make this worth it for you. I found that the harder things got, the more driven I became to do better. I also did two internships, some volunteering at the beginning, and got involved in professional associations and took on additional responsibilities. But that's me. If I love something and I believe in it, I go full metal --and am capable of being very driven. Also, I'm now 34 and felt that it was important I work as fast as possible to jumpstart the new direction I'm heading in. Hope my anecdotal experience helps. Good luck whatever you choose to do.

Note: Should add that my entire Master's program was online and that worked out very well for me. It helped that I worked as a paraprofessional for two years in the field that I was studying in, so I had hands-on experience and was able to talk to professionals who gave me lots of invaluable advice and feedback. Without that job perspective, the entire program online would've been a bad idea IMHO.

 

[Nijntje]

When i was manic i did uni fulltime and worked full time (i had 3 jobs), as my brain decided that i didn't need to sleep, ever.

Now that im more stable i work about 30 hours a week and do a half load for uni, so two subjects a semester. It's what works best for me without overloading myself and thinking i can do waaaaay more than i am actually capable of without falling down into a heap.

It did however take me a few years to figure this out, and find the sweet spot for a life/work/uni balance that didn't leave me wanting to commit atrocities.