Why is Fi the most devauled or unappreciated function?

[EcK]

I disagree. People who let you be yourself and let you explore your sensitivity instead of shunning it, are valuable indeed and don't have to be restricted to friend or spouse. I don't know about "required," but it is certainly valuable to find people like that.

Yes so, you agree with my statement: it's not required.
Or are you advocating for a fascist state?

It's either one or the other

 

[EcK]

Um not it's not haha. I just meant kindness is valuable, but it's not required.

I'm sure nazis said being an Aryan was valuable too.

 

[highlander]

Sensor functions, especially Si and the extroverted judging functions are the most often criticized from what I have seen. There is a clear reason for that. The people posting online tend to identify as iNtuitives and tend to be introverts, so are not often Je-doms. There are quite a few Je-aux, but far more Ji-doms than Je-doms specifically.

I generally agree with this as it relates to Internet forums. However, in real life it is the less common functions like Ni that are the least appreciated. Since they are are less common, they are less understood.

I think a lot of Fi bashing on forums is done by self typed NT, in my observation. Male INTJ seem weirdly embarrassed of their Fi, like "I'm always totally objective even though I just called you a cunt, and theorize that only anarco-capitalism is rational. No, no other belief system is rational!"

This is an interesting and I think true statement. If Fi is unappreciated, it is probably for a few reasons. First, I think it is simply not well understood. I had a difficult time understanding what Fi was for quite a while when I first started learning about cognitive functions. As [MENTION=14857]fia[/MENTION] said, the descriptions are not very good. It wasn't until I read Lectures on Jung's Typology that I actually started to understand what it was. The second reason is that it is an introverted function. My observation is that introverted functions are not as well understood in general because they are not as visible to people. Extraverted functions are much easier to recognize when they are being used. The third thing is that in my experience for whatever reason, people who prefer Fi are not very good at explaining the reasons for their Fi judgments. That includes INTJs. It also includes Fi-doms. I was with an Fi dom for three years and recall often being baffled by her judgments and no matter how much I pressed, she seemed unable to explain herself. You don't run into this as much with Fe or Te related judgments because those who prefer those tend to explain the related judgments better to others.

 

[EcK]

I mean kindness comes from within, so if you are feeling pressured to be "kind" you should probably figure out why you feel that way. Not trying to be condescending...just thought it might be helpful.

I'm glad my posts could lead you to this breakthrough.

 

[magpie]

My sister recently told me that pretty much everyone in my family hates me. My mom thinks I'm an asshole, my extended family thinks I'm an asshole, she thinks I'm an asshole. And I found myself thinking, "I'm an asshole." Why? It's because if everyone around me is telling me I'm a certain way even though I don't think so, then they must be right and I must be wrong, otherwise I wouldn't be the only person who disagrees.

Fe lets others' opinions affect it more than Fi does. I'm under the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that Fi would be more like "Fuck you guys, I know I'm not an asshole just because you think I am." Now, people water down this aspect of Fe to "they blindly subscribe to the hivemind" which is totally untrue.

I know this part of your previous post has already been addressed by others, but I think there's some value in bringing it up again since this has turned out to be a thread about stereotypes. I've seen opinions similar to the one you've stated above recurrently since I joined this site a few years ago. That people seem to think Fi is some sort of island or robot that is able to keep themselves impervious to outside influence, to the point that they are able to be unaffected by other's opinions, is the steroetype that bothers me the most.

I too have experienced the above, though in different circumstances. I've had people in positions of authority, basically everyone in my life, tell me over and over again how bad of a person I am. That I'm manipulative, dramatic, a liar, a fake, that I don't deserve help, that I deserve to be hurt, that when I'm hurt it's my fault, etc. Despite being an Fi-dom, I believed it to the point that it erased my identity. But I don't know how anyone couldn't. It's a human thing, it's just what happens when you receive negative feedback from everyone, especially if you're a child or teen. I honestly don't think it's type-related, and making it out to be an Fe thing erases an integral and defining struggle of my life.

 

[Duffy]

My sister recently told me that pretty much everyone in my family hates me. My mom thinks I'm an asshole, my extended family thinks I'm an asshole, she thinks I'm an asshole. And I found myself thinking, "I'm an asshole." Why? It's because if everyone around me is telling me I'm a certain way even though I don't think so, then they must be right and I must be wrong, otherwise I wouldn't be the only person who disagrees.

Well, I suppose you have a lot in common with someone I know, whom I type as ISFJ. She's the biggest asshole I know. Equipped with your stereotypical surface-y Fi qualities such as:
-moral righteousness (see: crusading)
-resistant of outside criticism (see: "Fuck you guys, I know I'm not an asshole just because you think I am."). has a lot of egosyntonic characteristics.
-hivemind stereotype is a lot more complex. can be very sure of one's own opinion one moment (even though it flies in the face of common sense), and end up looking for consensus to parrot and reassure oneself the next.

I won't comment on Fi, the function, getting the bad rap, but I'll say I know an Fi-user (cousin) who gets shitted on hard in real life. I'm too lazy to go into detail, but I say it has more to do with operating on a different frequency and certain set of values than the people around her are comfortable with. This person is vastly different from you in terms of type, but I'd say the commonality lies in being a misfit. I've seen this across various people of different 4-letter/enneagram types.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

1. I don’t think it is. At times it may be misunderstood. Even by those who possess it.


2. I don’t care if other’s don’t appreciate or understand functions I have/display (shrug).

If differences are so large that they lead to communication breakdown = issues can be easily resolved if both sides are mature and reasonable.

If resolution can't be reached...


3. Fi is so deeply internal, likely most people do not see the cogs and gears of this function in use. Thus, the outward manifestations may cause some confusion BECAUSE the processes are not easily observable.

This DOES occasionally cause grief to the Fi user. It necessitates us being more unguarded with people that count. ‘Allowing the other party in’ to gain insight re: the why’s and wherefore’s of our personal Fi application.

 

[EcK]

I mean kindness comes from within, so if you are feeling pressured to be "kind" you should probably figure out why you feel that way. Not trying to be condescending...just thought it might be helpful.

Yeah i agree. I was joking in case it wasn't clear.

 

[EcK]

[MENTION=25411]Duffy[/MENTION]

Maybe he just has a strained relationship with his family, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is an asshole.

Rest assured. We're all assholes to someone.

 

[Evo]

Fe envelopes and has a unconditional quality (to me) of acceptance.

Even if, they'll turn around and disagree with what they are comforting you about. The subject matter is secondary. With Fi, I think the subject matter is always primary. But this feels like "unsupportive" to an Fe user. When, it's them not merging with you. It's that autonomy.

Dude...

Yes. This.

 

[prplchknz]

Omg this thread is a crap show.

But I'm really attracted to Fi. Mainly because it shows autonomy. It stays true to itself, even under immense pressures. Maybe it's an ISTP thing, but I like that boldness. Especially, when it synchs with my own thoughts on certain issues.

Even when it doesn't, I have found *mature* Fi doms/auxs to be respectful of those differences because of individuality. Fi dom/auxs are pretty understanding of that concept.

The exception being a fierce rejection of anything that invades those thoughts but I mean, most people have that in them.

My ENFP took some time to get used to in how Fi comforts. It's different than how Fe does. And I can't put my finger on it. Fe envelopes and has a unconditional quality (to me) of acceptance.

Even if, they'll turn around and disagree with what they are comforting you about. The subject matter is secondary. With Fi, I think the subject matter is always primary. But this feels like "unsupportive" to an Fe user. When, it's them not merging with you. It's that autonomy.
.

I think that you can be upfront about disagreeing with someone but still be supportive as long as your not a dick when letting them know you disagreed.infact i think its nicer sure it hurts but it's quick where if they think you agree and later they find out you don't the wound hurts more.

 

[skippythecat]

See I think a healthy Fi user wouldn't do this. Seems to me that a healthy Fi user would already understand how complicated their own unique and individual feelings can be and understand the time and effort it takes to sort through them properly which sounds exactly why you don't like others to assume much about your feelings. The healthy Fi user would naturally see others as unique individuals for which broad and glitchy Te catagorizations wouldn't at all be accurate or sufficient.

An unhealthy Fi user would most likely default to their weak Te when dealing with others.

How would this look different with an ExFP? Fi-Te are 2nd and 3rd function compared to INFP (dom and infer).

 

[Hawthorne]

that they don't "understand reality" and that it's subjectively biased/useless and does not benefit anyone but the users own subjective and often biased/uselessness realities

This applies to all the introverted functions but to try and read between the lines, "society"'s issues with Fi (and to a lesser extent, Ti) are due to its association with a sort of self-centered rationalism (solipsism-lite?) that attempts to isolate itself from the influence of broader, empirical structures and objective contexts. In other words, for immature IxxPs, "it works for me and that all I really care about" mindset.

In the long run, it doesn't really matter because all types are influenced by and capable of engaging the external world. IxxPs just have to work a little harder at recognizing where these lines are because, according to Jung (or was it Freud? is there much diff tbh), they choose to allocate their energy to other, more valued processes.

And to curtail the clusterfuck blowback of Ti entering the oppression olympics, all types have to deal with their own (totally organic) brands of shit. Presumably, it is easier for us to recognize the shit we routinely have to deal with but since we are all at least moderately intelligent adults, we can recognize that just because we do not immediately recognize others' specific struggles doesn't mean they don't exist.

So really, what more is there to talk about here?

Since I'm drunk, I'm going to throw my coyness out the window and say that I suspect this thread was more of you wanting to vent about your particular Fi related woes. Where you went wrong was attempting to present it as a broad discussion of how "Fi is obviously the most ostracized function" and it doesn't take a genius to realize that was going to go nowhere fast. Also, the spirit has got me feeling optimistic so I'm going to try very hard to convince myself that renewing this tired fight *wasn't* your intent in the first place.

 

[Yama]

Alright, so I realize the reason I'm not making sense is because I used a really bad example. I used an example that involved being judged by others but really what I mean about this aspect of Fi/Fe is that it really only applies to one's values.

As in, the Fe user seeks consensus with what they value (some would say by conforming to what society values (hivemind) and others would say by creating the social norms, or trying to sway others to believe the same that they do). The Fi user is able to hold to their values regardless of what society's norms are, and don't feel the need to attempt to sway others to value the same things they do (?). That doesn't mean that Fi doesn't feel the pressure or that Fe can't value anything that's outside of the norm (*gestures to myself*). From what I've discussed, this has to do with the orientation of the function (external vs internal), which puts a greater influence on aspects of it that relate to the direction it's oriented.

I shouldn't have used an example that wasn't about values; of course anyone can experience what I described and you don't even have to be Fi or Fe valuing. The reason the example I used about my family is poor is because it doesn't have anything to do with one's values or ethical code, which is really the only thing what I'm trying to describe applies to--I misapplied it in that example. It's not my intention to invalidate anyone's experiences. I hope I'm making sense now. Sorry for the late reply, I hit my post limit and couldn't post again for many hours until it reset.

I hope I haven't offended anyone because I definitely am not trying to imply that only Fe users are affected by the bullying of others (because that's obviously bs) and I'm definitely not trying to invalidate others' experiences. I should have thought more about the example I was using before I used it because in retrospect, it doesn't work with the example I tried to use since it's not value-related.

If this still doesn't sound accurate for your experience with Fi, please let me know, because this was really the only aspect of differentiating Fe/Fi that I was ever confident about because I had discussed it with other members, but if I have the wrong idea then I'd like help in figuring out the difference.

I mean Fi can do that too. It's just that the focus in more on the emotional truth (I gues enneagram plays into this as well) as compared to Fe. Really liking/caring about someone not because it's the right thing to do but simply because you do is pretty unconditional.

Not at all trying to say Fe can't care about people. They in fact are really good at finding what the person needs and nurturing them.

EDIT: I really do think anyone is capable of this, it's just that (from my impression) Fe is oriented outwards, towards people so they do not mind sacrificing their own feelings/comfort for the sake of another. For Fi, it is oriented inwards and it really hurts/doesn't feel right to abandon who you are. So I think both can experience what it feels like to truly just accept/care about someone.

The bolded is enneagram 2 more than it is Fe. They get conflated a lot, just like 4 does with Fi. The reason most descriptions of Fe never resonate with me is because they're heavily 2 flavored and I'm not a 2, not even a 2 fix.

 

[Duffy]

[MENTION=25411]Duffy[/MENTION]

Maybe he just has a strained relationship with his family, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is an asshole.

I wasn't trying to call him this, I was just being facetious.

 

[magpie]

I shouldn't have used an example that wasn't about values; of course anyone can experience what I described and you don't even have to be Fi or Fe valuing. The reason the example I used about my family is poor is because it doesn't have anything to do with one's values or ethical code, which is really the only thing what I'm trying to describe applies to--I misapplied it in that example. It's not my intention to invalidate anyone's experiences. I hope I'm making sense now. Sorry for the late reply, I hit my post limit and couldn't post again for many hours until it reset.

I hope I haven't offended anyone because I definitely am not trying to imply that only Fe users are affected by the bullying of others (because that's obviously bs) and I'm definitely not trying to invalidate others' experiences. I should have thought more about the example I was using before I used it because in retrospect, it doesn't work with the example I tried to use since it's not value-related.

If any of this is in response to my last reply, I'm not offended and you didn't do anything wrong. It was ridiculous of me to say that your example was invalidating when it's obvious you didn't mean it that way at all. I probably overreacted, so sorry about that.

 

[Yama]

If any of this is in response to my last reply, I'm not offended and you didn't do anything wrong. It was ridiculous of me to say that your example was invalidating when it's obvious you didn't mean it that way at all. I probably overreacted, so sorry about that.

It's in response to multiple replies/thread as a whole so you don't need to worry. I just wanted to make sure everyone who's been following the thread knows what I meant. I don't think you overreacted

 

[ZNP-TBA]

How would this look different with an ExFP? Fi-Te are 2nd and 3rd function compared to INFP (dom and infer).

Quite different but still within the same realm of thinking. The ExFP is driven by their Ne/Se first so coming to a compete full understanding of their internal Fi is of secondary importance compared to exploring the outside world. Because of this they also treat their Fi differently than an Fi-dom. ExFPs treat their Fi as more of a 'tool' to help because it's a means and ends thing. For the ExFP Fi, and to a lesser extent, Te are means to achieve the end of exploration itself. For the Fi dom the end itself is the 'refinement' of the tool. ExFPs only need their Fi 'good enough' to supplement the dominating drive of Ne/Se. The IxFP is going to use their Se/Ne prospecting in a more narrow sense to the extent that is 'sharpens' their Fi.

Think of a car. Let's call the car 'Fi-Te.' Let's call the roads and destinations the car travels on Ne and/or Se. The ExFP cares more about the car operating good enough to get them to these destinations because the purpose is to drive and go places first. The IxFP enjoys the same process but the priorities as slightly shifted. The IxFP or Fi dom cares more about the car itself and if it's optimized the best it can be. IxFP would care more about how much gas mileage and how tuned up the car is itself rather than driving it to some particular place. IxFPs want to have the optimum specs on their vehicle a little more than driving it everywhere where the ExFP cares a little more about driving it somewhere.

I don't know if this makes sense but it's the same analogy I use with INTP and ENTP differences and Ti vs Ne dominance. I think it still applies to the ExFPs and IxFPs too.

Fi-Te as an entire process flows better with the ExFP over the IxFP. Fi isn't over emphasized and Te isn't as badly suppressed. In the ExFP Fi and Te tend to work more in a cooperatively (on balance) rather than being more adversarial as is the relationship with dom and inferior functions. On the flip side IxFPs can have a more balanced perspective (Ne-Si more on balance) at the cost of having more disparate rational functions.

 

[Lady_X]

that's not really my perception at all. (re: OP)

 

[Starry]

that's not really my perception at all. (re: OP)

I was literally just thinking that I forgot to wish you happy birthday.