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[Fi] Rant about Fi

Amargith

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Well, it gives an impression that doesn't have a universal applicability to truth. Thus to me feels like a rabbit hole.

:shrug: Then feel free to correct me. Fi after all is a personal experience and I'm not claiming to be an authority - just to recount my story and extrapolate and brainstorm to the best of my ability from there on. If you only found one sentence in that wall of text, I think I did pretty ok :D
And again, I felt that driving home the point was more important than perfect accuracy, as that was the purpose of the post.


This is btw a cute demo of how Xi nitpicks and perfects before tossing out hypothesis (and therefore demands a higher standard), while Ne prefers to throw out ideas and brainstorm, and assumes that any gaps will be forgiven and plugged in the discussion to follow, I'd say.
 

PeaceBaby

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Then feel free to correct me. Fi after all is a personal experience and I'm not claiming to be an authority - just to recount my story and extrapolate and brainstorm to the best of my ability from there on. If you only found one sentence in that wall of text, I think I did pretty ok
And again, I felt that driving home the point was more important than accuracy, as that was the purpose of the post.

No, I am getting closer to the point that Fi is not this "personal experience" it is often touted as, despite all the flavours of presentation. To me, accuracy is important and there's a universality in pattern I seek to define. Your thoughts take that off-course. And no, you shouldn't assume I have no issue with the rest of what you're writing because I only picked out one quick observation to comment on.

As always though, I appreciate your vantage point.
 

Amargith

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No, I am getting closer to the point that Fi is not this "personal experience" it is often touted as, despite all the flavours of presentation. To me, accuracy is important and there's a universality in pattern I seek to define. Your thoughts take that off-course. And no, you shouldn't assume I have no issue with the rest of what you're writing because I only picked out one quick observation to comment on.

As always though, I appreciate your vantage point.

:shrug: Like I said, it's like a first draft for people to add and contribute and play with as they want. It's not like this is like some thesis I had lying around and saw an opportunity to put out there. I'm just genuinely trying to brainstorm an answer to the questions I was asked. Feel free to add your own - I'm not particularly interested in meeting your standards, but you're welcome to join in.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Fi in its purest form would be least likely to compare people. The whole individual snowflake concept would ideally mean that every person is unique. How is one snowflake superior to another when each one is unique and each one is a snowflake? It may be rare that person thinks and behaves with one function in its isolated form, so likely Fi users are capable of assuming superiority like anyone, but is it Fi specifically that draws that conclusion? There are certainly people who base their identity on who and what they have superiority over, so it can happen when people have Fi as well. I don't think it makes sense as a defining trait, but it's worth re-reading Jung on the subject. He does describe what each function is like when unhealthy. I'll try to read and quote some sources to make a comparison on info.

One danger we run into using MBTI is to identify a personality trait we hate, correlate it with a specific function, and then forever after type the most annoying people we meet into that category. It is a sort of circular reasoning. It is important to continually reference the original sources of the theory as the foundation for conclusions over anecdotal evidence - because we are vulnerable to confirmation bias of our own assumptions.

Edit: I just read more Jung on the topic. Fi is way more complicated than I thought when I wrote this post. I would quote the Jung source, but would rather understand it first.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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No, I am getting closer to the point that Fi is not this "personal experience" it is often touted as, despite all the flavours of presentation. To me, accuracy is important and there's a universality in pattern I seek to define. Your thoughts take that off-course. And no, you shouldn't assume I have no issue with the rest of what you're writing because I only picked out one quick observation to comment on.

As always though, I appreciate your vantage point.

How would you answer the question asked of [MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION]? I'm curious as to your viewpoint since it is a 180 approach of looking at the situation.
 

Starry

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What do you think Fe peeps need to know about Fi to avoid the brick wall scenario you describe? I have seen this with Fi and been guilty of "guiding" the person. I SEE the communication issues. I KNOW the Fi user isn't understanding my motivations in the way I intend but it is difficult to express it IN THEIR TERMS. How should an Fe user reach Fi?

This isn't a slight on their judgement - at all, but IME, their speed in getting a desired result is sometimes much slower than what we need in order to trust them and then there is zero feedback.

So, for an Fe user, it seems like a sounding board without an echo. Like, we are communicating in a vacuum. The more we reach out, the more pressured or insulted the Fi user feels.

I think Fi moves at a snails pace or to Fe users, on the receiving end, feels like "all talk". I don't know if this is making sense. But you do end up throwing your hands up even if it isn't what you or they want.


In work situations especially... do not try to "guide" or "reach-out-to" or "sweet-diplomatic-pc-talk" brick wall Fi. That's just going to creep the Fi person out even more.

If you have a fast approaching deadline but are getting the brick wall... I would be very, very straightforward in my approach "This is what we need done. What the hell's going on on your end?"
 

SearchingforPeace

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In work situations especially... do not try to "guide" or "reach-out-to" or "sweet-diplomatic-pc-talk" brick wall Fi. That's just going to creep the Fi person out even more.

If you have a fast approaching deadline but are getting the brick wall... I would be very, very straightforward in my approach "This is what we need done. What the hell's going on on your end?"

So Te them?
 

OrangeAppled

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Quick comment - that's an e4 flavoured attitude on Fi.

I disagree. That is a blatant stereotype for both Fi and e4s.

At most, that is immature Fi in, say, a young ExFP or the projection of other people's crappy, infantile Fi because they are not a Fi type. Van Der Hoop says Fi types are remarkably individual, not that they try to be nor guard individuality as identity, just that they ARE.

There may be some interest in protecting the needs of individuals instead of pushing "one size fits most" agendas, but that doesnt end nor even start with the self. Van Der Hoop also noted the focus of the Fi type is on forming ideals about what makes life and relationships harmonious and beautiful, not simply what the individual feels nor their own emotional reactions.

I see even more xxTPs with an extremely individualistic attitude than xxFPs. Strong desire for autonomy is more of an IxxP attitude than directly related to Fi alone.

The OP is not even worth addressing in a serious way. It shows a lack of understanding of the theory and suggests that the person likely types other people terribly, making any of his/her observations and anecdotes a pretty useless premise.
 

Poki

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I hear you and I understand the frustration. And I appreciate you asking this question and where it is coming from.

The thing is - there is no trick.

Compare it to when a Te-user hurries you along to get on with your Ti process, already. They're basically asking you to dismiss your own judgement - the function that houses your ego - in favour of theirs. And Fe does the same with Fi.

I've frustrated many a person with this and tbh, it just ends up with me withdrawing from them and not sharing details of my life or sharing in their life because I don't want to do that again to them, and I don't want to resent the crap out of them for making me betray my own process and self.

There is, however, depending on the circumstances, one way that might work.

And I'm going to use a very drastic black and white analogy to illustrate my point, to make you understand just how Fi views relationships. Keep in mind, this may rub Fe-users the wrong way, because it is from an Fi (at least mine) pov.


Say you see a person you wanna sleep with. They look great, they smell great, they do all the right stuff for you. And you're horny, it's been a while. Meanwhile, they respond well to you, they laugh at your jokes, they touch you, etc. But - when you go in for the kill, they withdraw. They hem and haw. They're not sure.


Now, coming back to your original question. What you're asking me to do sounds basically like the equivalent of: 'How many drinks do I have to pour into them before I can bypass their consent and get them to do what I want, already?'

In this case, Xe (Fe or Te) just wants to get laid and have a good time already. They are focused on the result. Xi (Fi or Ti) isn't sure because they need more information to make that judgement and (in Fi's case) see if it feels right. They are focused on getting there the right way.

The point is, to get them to where you are without giving them the time they need to actually reach that conclusion themselves, you'd be resorting to (in Fe's case) emotional manipulation, cajoling, coaxing, and so on, to get around their consent and get to the end point already.

This is pretty much comparable to a person wining and dining another, buying them all kinds of stuff even though the other person didn't ask for that, using every seduction trick in the book, including stuff that lowers inhibitions and then emotionally guiltttripping them to deliver, since they want their ROI, already.

Those people, I actively avoid and boot out of my life. A smart guy can seduce me without all that junk and in less time than it takes to finish just 1 dinner, just by doing one crucial thing: showing me that he actually respects my consent. Though I do appreciate the game play of seduction and flirtation as a perk :D

That means that he actually shows me what he wants, why he wants it, acknowledges and shows that he's looking for my consent on this, to see where I stand AND is willing to give me the time I need in order not to pressure me, to decide on that, as well as is willing to walk away if I do decide to say 'no' -> this last one actually outs any players that weren't sincere as they'll throw a monumental hissy fit when their con doesn't work and they get a 'no' anyways. In essence, they lie about respecting your consent.

So why does an honest person who puts himself out there, dares to be vulnerable and actually forges a connection with another human being still get a 'no', despite doing *everything* right?

It usually means that nobody would've been able to get in the Fi-users pants. It's nothing personal, but maybe they just got out of a relationship and got burned bad and aren't ready yet for the game. Maybe they're looking for a different type of relationships and don't do one night stands. And maybe they're still exploring what exactly it is they want (and this is what you're mostly referring to, I think, but it isn't something you can rush!). Whatever the reason, the person opts out of the 'greater good' of having a good time together and doesn't fulfil the other person's expectations.

Having this decision rushed, btw, is almost guaranteed to produce a 'no' since there just isn't enough information to risk a 'yes'. And there isn't time, if you do have the information', or the quiet you need (as it's an introverted function) to actually process the information properly in order to warrant a 'yes'. Iow, the outside pressure pretty much stops the process dead in its track -> this is where your void in communication comes from and why the sound boarding goes away.

I have the same, btw, with Ni-users. My Ne works itself out by bouncing things off of other people, by sound boarding. When I do that with my INTJ and he's thought about the topic before, he can keep up, no prob. If I do this on something that hits both Ni and Fi, on a topic he hasn't actually had time to process yet, it just gridlocks him. It's infuriating for me, as I need the sound boarding to figure things out ,and he suddenly first needs a week to actually work things out before he can give me that. But I've learned to walk away and just gently remind him that I still want to discuss this with him and that he can get back to me at any time. There just is no other way of doing this than to respect the process he needs to go through to get me my answer. And so, instead, I do everything I can to support his Ni process and go out of my way to respect it, coz it tends to be dead on and full of useful information when it can freely do its thing. I'd be nuts not to.

The bottom line is - you do not control the other person. Nor should you try to. Your need for a result does not trump their need to actually make that journey the way it was meant to be made. You do not get to make that decision for them and pressing them will only backfire. And this is, btw, why and how Fi sees Fe as selfish, while Fe points to Fi being selfish for holding up the group.

That said, there is something that absolutely motivates and inspires me - as much as the pressure gridlocks me and makes me wanna bend over and cut my own throat to keep you from getting what you want, btw - it is the genuine vulnerability of a friend who asks me in all sincerity to help them out with something and takes the time to explain to me why this is so vital to them (and have them recognise that it may not at all be vital to me, for that matter - Fe tends to think that the rest of the group should value the same things they do 'for the greater good' which rubs the need for individuality in Fi-users the wrong way - aka, I'm not you). I'll bend over backwards if it's in my power to do so. And I'll apologise profusely if I'm not able to because my Fi just...isn't there yet. I'll also do anything I can though to circumvent the stuff I still need to sort out and find a way to make it happen for you.

But only if you make it clear you won't hold it against me if I can't deliver, that you don't place any expectations on me, and that you recognise this is in fact my decision. It's a favour - not something I owe you. I'd walk through fire for a genuine request from a friend like that. I'll reorganise my entire life, if I have to, to help you out.

Take my consent for granted, and watch me do everything I can to sabotage your control over me with equal zeal :shrug:

Learn who you can and can't trust with Fi. Grow a pair of balls per se and just be stubborn as hell with those you cant and be confident in your stubbornness. I don't understand this as a Ti user in regard to Te. That's what actually causes them to respect me in the first place. Because I don't allow myself to be run over. Not sure if or how that works with Fe. Look at it all objectively, if it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit.

Find those who help you in a positive way and lean on those people more. They will not only guide you, but also do it in a way that let's you work things out.
 

SearchingforPeace

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Yah, at the very least the "humoring" is likely to cause the person to fortify their brick wall (make the situation worse) and needs to be avoided.

And in non-work settings?
 

Amargith

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Learn who you can and can't trust with Fi. Grow a pair of balls per se and just be stubborn as hell with those you cant and be confident in your stubbornness. I don't understand this as a Ti user in regard to Te. That's what actually causes them to respect me in the first place. Because I don't allow myself to be run over. Not sure if or how that works with Fe. Look at it all objectively, if it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit.

Find those who help you in a positive way and lean on those people more. They will not only guide you, but also do it in a way that let's you work things out.

Yeah, I'm getting there :D
I don't know if it would work that well with Fe...the thing is, when I was a kid, my Fi basically got stuck between Ti and Fe - aka, my Fi got told that it was processing information the wrong way (it had to be the Ti way!) and Fe was used to guilt trip me into 'looking past my own petty concerns and consider everyone elses wishes before mine, already. Since I was a weird kid...my wishes often clashed with the group, unfortunately. And I did value not being a selfish person so it screwed up my boundaries and the parameters one needs to actually assert your boundaries.

At this point, guilt tripping no longer works as well with me because I know what I stand for and what I value and who I am. But when you're still searching for that and don't get a chance to establish that, it works unfortunately like a charm and it's still a popular tool to use by adults and bullying peers on kids. And unfortunately, more unhealthy Fe users will not appreciate you screwing up their precious harmony in a group by having your own opinion. As I'm naturally conflict avoidant (as are they), it just leaves us all with a bad taste in our mouths and a potential blame game - not respect, ime. :shrug:

I've pretty much resorted to learning 'FeTi logic' on here, that I then use against them instead. That way they get stuck in their own heads trying to sort out how they can get what they want without breaking their own rules and being a hypocrite and I'm free to do my own thing :D
 

Starry

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And in non-work settings?


I was trying to think of this...


I wanted to give MPD2525 practical/useful info to use in the moment. She wanted to know how to *reach* Fi...and that is how you would do it. Communicating without smilies...completely on the level/authentically.

In more personal relationships...I would need more time to think about a response haha
 

Poki

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In work situations especially... do not try to "guide" or "reach-out-to" or "sweet-diplomatic-pc-talk" brick wall Fi. That's just going to creep the Fi person out even more.

If you have a fast approaching deadline but are getting the brick wall... I would be very, very straightforward in my approach "This is what we need done. What the hell's going on on your end?"

Or just say...deadline is approaching and it looks like you are having trouble. What's going on? Let me help you because it looks like we are gonna cut it to close for the deadline and I don't want this to turn into a miss if we can help it.

Work is a team work environment, be a team.
 

Poki

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Yeah, I'm getting there :D
I don't know if it would work that well with Fe...the thing is, when I was a kid, my Fi basically got stuck between Ti and Fe - aka, my Fi got told that it was processing information the wrong way (it had to be the Ti way!) and Fe was used to guilt trip me into 'looking past my own petty concerns and consider everyone elses wishes before mine, already. Since I was a weird kid...my wishes often clashed with the group, unfortunately. And I did value not being a selfish person so it screwed up my boundaries and the parameters one needs to actually assert your boundaries.

At this point, guilt tripping no longer works as well with me because I know what I stand for and what I value and who I am. But when you're still searching for that and don't get a chance to establish that, it works unfortunately like a charm and it's still a popular tool to use by adults and bullying peers on kids. And unfortunately, more unhealthy Fe users will not appreciate you screwing up their precious harmony in a group by having your own opinion. As I'm naturally conflict avoidant (as are they), it just leaves us all with a bad taste in our mouths and a potential blame game - not respect, ime. :shrug:

I've pretty much resorted to learning 'FeTi logic' on here, that I then use against them instead. That way they get stuck in their own heads trying to sort out how they can get what they want without breaking their own rules and being a hypocrite and I'm free to do my own thing :D

I can be stubborn as hell when I want to be despite my laid back nature :D
 

Starry

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Or just say...deadline is approaching and it looks like you are having trouble. What's going on? Let me help you because it looks like we are gonna cut it to close for the deadline and I don't want this to turn into a miss if we can help it.

Work is a team work environment, be a team.


You have such a great way of communicating.

Brick wall Fi though... I would probably be offput by the suggestion I was having trouble and that my actions were not team oriented because if I have a brick wall up there's most likely a team I'm trying to protect (I'm just trying to be honest for the sake of the discussion...this is why Fi is hard for so many to deal with)
 

Poki

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You have such a great way of communicating.

Brick wall Fi though... I would probably be offput by the suggestion I was having trouble and that my actions were not team oriented because if I have a brick wall up there's most likely a team I'm trying to protect (I'm just trying to be honest for the sake of the discussion...this is why Fi is hard for so many to deal with)

I wouldn't add the comment about team work. That was just an explanation of things. In that situation it would be a snide backhanded statement...guilt tripping. Now depending on how things progressed with what I said, I would use the team work statement. But just in support of when we get it done and usually in response to a thanks and in a kind and reassuring way. It works, I have no issues with Fi unless I purposely push buttons. Sometimes that does light a fire under their ass in a different way that I am usually aware of and am going for that affect.
 

PeaceBaby

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Van Der Hoop says Fi types are remarkably individual, not that they try to be nor guard individuality as identity, just that they ARE.

And yet, if we were *completely* individual, we would not recognize each other, there would be no pattern -- YET, we do and there is. e4 certainly colors the strong affinity to the cherishing of individuality. So, I stand by my observation. Especially since as an e9 I am looking at it from outside.

Van Der Hoop also noted the focus of the Fi type is on forming ideals about what makes life and relationships harmonious and beautiful, not simply what the individual feels nor their own emotional reactions.

Agreed.

I see even more xxTPs with an extremely individualistic attitude than xxFPs. Strong desire for autonomy is more of an IxxP attitude than directly related to Fi alone.

Agreed.

The OP is not even worth addressing in a serious way. It shows a lack of understanding of the theory and suggests that the person likely types other people terribly, making any of his/her observations and anecdotes a pretty useless premise.

And yet, one must start somewhere. :)
 
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