[Fi] Rant about Fi

[Siúil a Rúin]

[MENTION=26669]giorgaros2[/MENTION]
You mention that unhealthy Fi-users feel superior to everyone else, and that is likely true, but isn't it also true of everyone? I think there are examples of every type that feel superior, but perhaps the tendency towards moral superiority is what tweaks you?

I can think of just one unhealthy Fi-user I knew and she was quite complicated. She and her INTP brother were quite similar in their mode of unhealthiness, so it's hard to measure how much was specifically Fi, but rather their environment. The intuitive aspect of their personalities did contribute to their specific sort of unhealthiness. Their ideals and words were so beautiful, pure, innocent, and even perfect. Their insight deep. She considered herself an empath and in her words could at times feel like one, but in the practical day-to-day living, both the brother and sister were absolutely selfish. She would sleep most of the day, let everyone else work, then come out, taste the dinner, critique it, then sit down and wait to be served up. She often said, 'everyone is different', but she applied that idea as though some people are meant to slave away while others live like a princess. Both siblings had close to zero empathy, but mistook their pure self-centeredness for empathy because everything they encountered was about them. If they knew someone with a physical pain, they magically had it too, but could even require the actual chronic pain person to assist their imagined pains. In that way I noticed that something like narcissism can be confused for empathy because both extremes eliminate the boundary between self and other.

I've met other extremely self-centered people, and many that were worse and of all different personality types. My only complaint for the self-centered iNtuitive is that their ideals and words can confuse the issue because of how accurate, deep, pure, and insightful they can be. I think that type is capable of gobsmacking dichotomies between the ideal and the real. But, I don't want to lay this unhealthy issue soley with the Fi-dom because I think there are a lot of functions that can result in that dichotomous split, and I find these siblings interesting because one is a Fi-dom and one has Fi as the 8/8 functions, yet both exhibited similar unhealthy behavior because of environment.

 

[giorgaros2]

[MENTION=26669]giorgaros2[/MENTION]
You mention that unhealthy Fi-users feel superior to everyone else, and that is likely true, but isn't it also true of everyone? I think there are examples of every type that feel superior, but perhaps the tendency towards moral superiority is what tweaks you?

I can think of just one unhealthy Fi-user I knew and she was quite complicated. She and her INTP brother were quite similar in their mode of unhealthiness, so it's hard to measure how much was specifically Fi, but rather their environment. The intuitive aspect of their personalities did contribute to their specific sort of unhealthiness. Their ideals and words were so beautiful, pure, innocent, and even perfect. Their insight deep. She considered herself an empath and in her words could at times feel like one, but in the practical day-to-day living, both the brother and sister were absolutely selfish. She would sleep most of the day, let everyone else work, then come out, taste the dinner, critique it, then sit down and wait to be served up. She often said, 'everyone is different', but she applied that idea as though some people are meant to slave away while others live like a princess. Both siblings had close to zero empathy, but mistook their pure self-centeredness for empathy because everything they encountered was about them. If they knew someone with a physical pain, they magically had it too, but could even require the actual chronic pain person to assist their imagined pains. In that way I noticed that something like narcissism can be confused for empathy because both extremes eliminate the boundary between self and other.

I've met other extremely self-centered people, and many that were worse and of all different personality types. My only complaint for the self-centered iNtuitive is that their ideals and words can confuse the issue because of how accurate, deep, pure, and insightful they can be. I think that type is capable of gobsmacking dichotomies between the ideal and the real. But, I don't want to lay this unhealthy issue soley with the Fi-dom because I think there are a lot of functions that can result in that dichotomous split, and I find these siblings interesting because one is a Fi-dom and one has Fi as the 8/8 functions, yet both exhibited similar unhealthy behavior because of environment.

I forgot to say that INFP's are the exception to the rule.This does not applies to INFPs,Actually i had ISFP's in mind when writing about that.When unhealthy they are very likely to exhibit narcissistic behavior.

 

[Amargith]

I'd say that any personality type that is stuck in their dominant function as their pov on the world, with little to no actual development of the auxiliary (aka, where the aux effectively becomes a slave of the dom) is bound to show narcissistic traits since they aren't aware yet that there are in fact different ways of looking onto the world and theirs is not necessarily The One. They may even know this intellectually but not have experienced it as an epiphany yet and therefore are blind to the damage they do onto others due to the expectation that others will and should respond and value what they themselves value.

The aux allows us to challenge, refine, fine-tune and detach a little from the importance of your dom, as well as aid in the development of the functions to tackle after that. In that way, the ego no longer is dangerously attached to that pov, and does not become threatened longer by what others bring to the table, which used to be followed by a knee-jerk defense against a perceived attack. One even learns to laugh and poke fun at one's own dom, questioning it, playing with it and making it more well-rounded and becoming clearer on its purpose (or lack there of) in each situation. Iow, it stops domineering the other functions and makes room for them to shine as well.

 

[Diablesse]

It appears some of what has been written regarding Fi as a dominant function in this thread seems to qualify as more unhealthy type 4 behavior/attitudes and is perhaps inaccurately attributed and misconstrued as unhealthy Fi, rather than unhealthy enneagram type 4.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[1010830]

Having a strong extroverted thinking as I have (see signature), you just have no idea how much I hate these illogical Fis. God, they're so pathetic. I know I'm sounding rude and offensive but its how I see things. Except for INFPs. INFP women are the cutest little creatures on Earth.

 

[Hawthorne]

I believe that NTP's shouldnt fight with each other , we are the only ones who can protect mankind from an SJ apocalypse

Protect mankind? Oh no.

I find the idea of our (self-)destruction significantly more exciting. I'll take a ticket for that showing instead.

 

[Amargith]

Having a strong extroverted thinking as I have (see signature), you just have no idea how much I hate these illogical Fis. God, they're so pathetic. I know I'm sounding rude and offensive but its how I see things. Except for INFPs. INFP women are the cutest little creatures on Earth.

Gotto love the irony - now that's illogical for ya

 

[1010830]

Gotto love the irony - now that's illogical for ya

Please explain.

 

[Amargith]

Please explain.

Sorry, I tend to really get amused by irony, it wasn't meant maliciously at all, I swear.

What I mean is...you rant about how illogical these weak Fi-creatures are (and you're not the first to express these feelings on here - I appreciate the candor), but then you exclude INFP women and go on about how cute they are.

Does that seem like a (T) logical reasoning to you?
If Fi really did bug you that much due to being illogical (according to T standards), it would only be logical that Fi-doms (like INFPs) annoy you the most. They live and breathe the stuff, after all.

It seems your inferior Fi is shining through and you're more of an Fi-user than you may be aware of. What you expressed was truthful, honest, raw emotional information - the kind that Fi relishes. And the kind that is often labelled as 'irrational' and 'illogical' by those that aren't a fan of Fi, because it seemingly contradicts itself when translated through T.

In essence, what you seem to be expressing - when translated through the Fi logic system - is:

'Fi makes me feel uncomfortable because it mirrors my own vulnerability and my own Fi which I don't feel I have a great handle on. That in turn, I believe, leaves me open to attack and being perceived as weak. However, INFP women, who wield this masterfully, make me feel safe to express myself in this way as they appear harmless, understand me and would therefore never attack me, even in this state. I can be myself with them.'

And there is nothing wrong with that. Vulnerability may make you feel uncomfortable at present, but wielded properly, it can actually be used to cultivate a different type of courage and even act as a shield and weapon against those that would cause you harm. It will just take you some time to figure that out. And your gut is right - INFPs would make wonderful mentors to actually forge you such a weapon


Welcome to the forums, btw - I hope you find what you're looking for, here

 

[1010830]

Sorry, I tend to really get amused by irony, it wasn't meant maliciously at all, I swear.

What I mean is...you rant about how illogical these weak Fi-creatures are (and you're not the first to express these feelings on here - I appreciate the candor), but then you exclude INFP women and go on about how cute they are.

Does that seem like a (T) logical reasoning to you?
If Fi really did bug you that much due to being illogical (according to T standards), it would only be logical that Fi-doms (like INFPs) annoy you the most. They live and breathe the stuff, after all.

It seems your inferior Fi is shining through and you're more of an Fi-user than you may be aware of. What you expressed was truthful, honest, raw emotional information - the kind that Fi relishes. And the kind that is often labelled as 'irrational' and 'illogical' by those that aren't a fan of Fi, because it seemingly contradicts itself when translated through T.

In essence, what you seem to be expressing - when translated through the Fi logic system - is:

'Fi makes me feel uncomfortable because it mirrors my own vulnerability and my own Fi which I don't feel I have a great handle on. That in turn, I believe, leaves me open to attack and being perceived as weak. However, INFP women, who wield this masterfully, make me feel safe to express myself in this way as they appear harmless, understand me and would therefore never attack me, even in this state. I can be myself with them.'

And there is nothing wrong with that. Vulnerability may make you feel uncomfortable at present, but wielded properly, it can actually be used to cultivate a different type of courage and even act as a shield and weapon against those that would cause you harm. It will just take you some time to figure that out. And your gut is right - INFPs would make wonderful mentors to actually forge you such a weapon


Welcome to the forums, btw - I hope you find what you're looking for, here

You're making a tremendous amount of false assumptions. I just said I hate all NFs except INFP girls because they're cute. I could explain to you how they're cute, as in their behaviour, the mechanisms of male to female attraction, sexual hormones, the science of love, and so on, if you want to get a logical reasoning on why I'm attracted to INFP females.

Having said an astronomical amount of bullshit, you're just fueling my stereotype further.

 

[Amargith]

As I said, the irony was amusing, that's all. True enough, I don't know you - hence the repeated use of the word 'seems'. It was an educated guess based on a pattern I've seen more times than I can count. Take from it what you want - or don't want

 

[Poki]

You're making a tremendous amount of false assumptions. I just said I hate all NFs except INFP girls because they're cute. I could explain to you how they're cute, as in their behaviour, the mechanisms of male to female attraction, sexual hormones, the science of love, and so on, if you want to get a logical reasoning on why I'm attracted to INFP females.

Having said an astronomical amount of bullshit, you're just fueling my stereotype further.

She makes sense to me. It can't possibly be Fi...it needs to be categorized further. Stereotype says inferior Fi will cause you to prematurely categorize things when it hits. Basically creating illogical statements such as I hate Fi yet I love Fi (infp). You are to close to your understanding to be able to see the big picture and the irony of it all. Which leads to an attempt of explanation of your logical reasoning and miss her point completely...also very stereotypical...lol. actually you are fueling your stereotype further

 

[PeaceBaby]

Having a strong extroverted thinking as I have (see signature), you just have no idea how much I hate these illogical Fis. God, they're so pathetic. I know I'm sounding rude and offensive but its how I see things. Except for INFPs. INFP women are the cutest little creatures on Earth.

Of course! And we just love you grumpy Te doms too.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Actually, this is going back on my own experience. And I only speak to one INTJ these days and he aint too interested in typology

I'll admit that Te can get really impatient with Fi, too - but the difference is that if I push back, at best, they totally understand where I'm coming from. If not, I'll use Te to halt them and then put them in their place using Fi - and 90 percent of the time, they'll get it and lay off (because they too usually value Free Will) or they'll get that their impatience isn't welcome and at worst they'll toss their arms up in the air and leave me alone, writing me off as a hopeless case. This I can work with.

Fe, instead, starts invalidating you and your judgement, sussing you and treating you like a child that needs placating and just more 'guidance' to do the right thing. And then they start emotionally manipulating you to mold to the version of yourself *they*'ve envisioned, using carrot and stick, with a healthy dollop of guilt. Meanwhile Ti seems to have this thing about hounding you till you yield in exhaustion to their truth, just to get them to go away. The combination of the two is...

That's where I blow up. It's taken me a long time to dare to push back against this, but I'm now at the point where I realise just how much work they will and can cost me if I let them get to me, and it pisses me off royally. Coz once I give in, they go their merry way - and I'm stuck cleaning up the mess and redoing all the work.

Again, Ive also had positive experiences with TiFe users being incredibly supporting and complimentary in our work together - this is especially true if we work side by side, as peers, on the same project but with different departments that support each other in the greater good. And then the cooperation is indeed

What do you think Fe peeps need to know about Fi to avoid the brick wall scenario you describe? I have seen this with Fi and been guilty of "guiding" the person. I SEE the communication issues. I KNOW the Fi user isn't understanding my motivations in the way I intend but it is difficult to express it IN THEIR TERMS. How should an Fe user reach Fi?

This isn't a slight on their judgement - at all, but IME, their speed in getting a desired result is sometimes much slower than what we need in order to trust them and then there is zero feedback.

So, for an Fe user, it seems like a sounding board without an echo. Like, we are communicating in a vacuum. The more we reach out, the more pressured or insulted the Fi user feels.

I think Fi moves at a snails pace or to Fe users, on the receiving end, feels like "all talk". I don't know if this is making sense. But you do end up throwing your hands up even if it isn't what you or they want.

 

[Amargith]

What do you think Fe peeps need to know about Fi to avoid the brick wall scenario you describe? I have seen this with Fi and been guilty of "guiding" the person. I SEE the communication issues. I KNOW the Fi user isn't understanding my motivations in the way I intend but it is difficult to express it IN THEIR TERMS. How should an Fe user reach Fi?

This isn't a slight on their judgement - at all, but IME, their speed in getting a desired result is sometimes much slower than what we need in order to trust them and then there is zero feedback.

So, for an Fe user, it seems like a sounding board without an echo. Like, we are communicating in a vacuum. The more we reach out, the more pressured or insulted the Fi user feels.

I think Fi moves at a snails pace or to Fe users, on the receiving end, feels like "all talk". I don't know if this is making sense. But you do end up throwing your hands up even if it isn't what you or they want.

I hear you and I understand the frustration. And I appreciate you asking this question and where it is coming from.

The thing is - there is no trick.

Compare it to when a Te-user hurries you along to get on with your Ti process, already. They're basically asking you to dismiss your own judgement - the function that houses your ego - in favour of theirs. And Fe does the same with Fi.

I've frustrated many a person with this and tbh, it just ends up with me withdrawing from them and not sharing details of my life or sharing in their life because I don't want to do that again to them, and I don't want to resent the crap out of them for making me betray my own process and self.

There is, however, depending on the circumstances, one way that might work.

And I'm going to use a very drastic black and white analogy to illustrate my point, to make you understand just how Fi views relationships. Keep in mind, this may rub Fe-users the wrong way, because it is from an Fi (at least mine) pov.


Say you see a person you wanna sleep with. They look great, they smell great, they do all the right stuff for you. And you're horny, it's been a while. Meanwhile, they respond well to you, they laugh at your jokes, they touch you, etc. But - when you go in for the kill, they withdraw. They hem and haw. They're not sure.


Now, coming back to your original question. What you're asking me to do sounds basically like the equivalent of: 'How many drinks do I have to pour into them before I can bypass their consent and get them to do what I want, already?'

In this case, Xe (Fe or Te) just wants to get laid and have a good time already. They are focused on the result. Xi (Fi or Ti) isn't sure because they need more information to make that judgement and (in Fi's case) see if it feels right. They are focused on getting there the right way.

The point is, to get them to where you are without giving them the time they need to actually reach that conclusion themselves, you'd be resorting to (in Fe's case) emotional manipulation, cajoling, coaxing, and so on, to get around their consent and get to the end point already.

This is pretty much comparable to a person wining and dining another, buying them all kinds of stuff even though the other person didn't ask for that, using every seduction trick in the book, including stuff that lowers inhibitions and then emotionally guiltttripping them to deliver, since they want their ROI, already.

Those people, I actively avoid and boot out of my life. A smart guy can seduce me without all that junk and in less time than it takes to finish just 1 dinner, just by doing one crucial thing: showing me that he actually respects my consent. Though I do appreciate the game play of seduction and flirtation as a perk

That means that he actually shows me what he wants, why he wants it, acknowledges and shows that he's looking for my consent on this, to see where I stand AND is willing to give me the time I need in order not to pressure me, to decide on that, as well as is willing to walk away if I do decide to say 'no' -> this last one actually outs any players that weren't sincere as they'll throw a monumental hissy fit when their con doesn't work and they get a 'no' anyways. In essence, they lie about respecting your consent.

So why does an honest person who puts himself out there, dares to be vulnerable and actually forges a connection with another human being still get a 'no', despite doing *everything* right?

It usually means that nobody would've been able to get in the Fi-users pants. It's nothing personal, but maybe they just got out of a relationship and got burned bad and aren't ready yet for the game. Maybe they're looking for a different type of relationships and don't do one night stands. And maybe they're still exploring what exactly it is they want (and this is what you're mostly referring to, I think, but it isn't something you can rush!). Whatever the reason, the person opts out of the 'greater good' of having a good time together and doesn't fulfil the other person's expectations.

Having this decision rushed, btw, is almost guaranteed to produce a 'no' since there just isn't enough information to risk a 'yes'. And there isn't time, if you do have the information', or the quiet you need (as it's an introverted function) to actually process the information properly in order to warrant a 'yes'. Iow, the outside pressure pretty much stops the process dead in its track -> this is where your void in communication comes from and why the sound boarding goes away.

I have the same, btw, with Ni-users. My Ne works itself out by bouncing things off of other people, by sound boarding. When I do that with my INTJ and he's thought about the topic before, he can keep up, no prob. If I do this on something that hits both Ni and Fi, on a topic he hasn't actually had time to process yet, it just gridlocks him. It's infuriating for me, as I need the sound boarding to figure things out ,and he suddenly first needs a week to actually work things out before he can give me that. But I've learned to walk away and just gently remind him that I still want to discuss this with him and that he can get back to me at any time. There just is no other way of doing this than to respect the process he needs to go through to get me my answer. And so, instead, I do everything I can to support his Ni process and go out of my way to respect it, coz it tends to be dead on and full of useful information when it can freely do its thing. I'd be nuts not to.

The bottom line is - you do not control the other person. Nor should you try to. Your need for a result does not trump their need to actually make that journey the way it was meant to be made. You do not get to make that decision for them and pressing them will only backfire. And this is, btw, why and how Fi sees Fe as selfish, while Fe points to Fi being selfish for holding up the group.

That said, there is something that absolutely motivates and inspires me - equal to how the pressure gridlocks me and makes me wanna bend over and cut my own throat to keep you from getting what you want, btw - it is the genuine vulnerability of a friend who asks me in all sincerity to help them out with something and takes the time to explain to me why this is so vital to them (and have them recognise that it may not at all be vital to me, for that matter - Fe tends to think that the rest of the group should value the same things they do 'for the greater good' which rubs the need for individuality in Fi-users the wrong way - aka, I'm not you). I'll bend over backwards if it's in my power to do so. And I'll apologise profusely if I'm not able to because my Fi just...isn't there yet. I'll also do anything I can though to circumvent the stuff I still need to sort out and find a way to make it happen for you.

But only if you make it clear you won't hold it against me if I can't deliver, that you don't place any expectations on me, and that you recognise this is in fact my decision. It's a favour - not something I owe you. I'd walk through fire for a genuine request from a friend like that. I'll reorganise my entire life, if I have to, to help you out.

Take my consent for granted, and watch me do everything I can to sabotage your control over me with equal zeal

 

[Coriolis]

In this case, Xe (Fe or Te) just wants to get laid and have a good time already. They are focused on the result. Xi (Fi or Ti) isn't sure because they need more information to make that judgement and (in Fi's case) see if it feels right. They are focused on getting their the right way.

How does this play out in a single individual? Fi users are also Te users, and Ti users use Fe. Is this same tension between wanting to get on with it and needing to be true to the process an inherent part of how people do business, or does it happen only interpersonally, much as you can't tickle yourself? Does it matter where in their stacking the Fi/Te and Ti/Fe are?

 

[Amargith]

How does this play out in a single individual? Fi users are also Te users, and Ti users use Fe. Is this same tension between wanting to get on with it and needing to be true to the process an inherent part of how people do business, or does it happen only interpersonally, much as you can't tickle yourself? Does it matter where in their stacking the Fi/Te and Ti/Fe are?

Those are good questions.

I suspect that the closer Xi is to the dominant function, the more prominent it will show itself - it's likely one of the reasons that Ps tend to be 'knee jerky' about being controlled. Though, funny enough, tertiary Fi users (and inferior ones, for that matter) can get really knee jerky about the weirdest things at the weirdest times. And it usually happens in areas where their dominant has no stake - where their super id as such, has 'no opinion' one way or the other. Suddenly the subconscious gets to have their say

From what I can tell, it's basically divided by the fact that Xi is invested in the ego. Ideas vs Values, depending on where the person invests their ego. So in Ti-users you see that they're incredibly protective of their intellectual property and cannot be rushed on that - and if they are, they *really* don't take kindly to it. Meanwhile, Fi-users are invested in their individuality and free will and woe to all that come near it in a threatening way. It makes sense - it's the most important decision process which you rely on to make sense of the world, whereas Te/Fe is the way you decide to navigate the world.

This also explains why it gives such clash - if you invest your ego in ideas, then you don't get the big deal regarding values and you're more than willing to use the widely available system (Fe) to navigate the world regarding those topics. And vice versa. Ive always been insecure about my intelligence because I was told by Ti-users, repeatedly, that I was an idiot. But I tend not to get incensed when someone critiques my idea. On the contrary, I throw out half baked ideas *because* I enjoy brainstorming and developing them in group. I *do* get annoyed when Ti users then rip it apart because it's not perfect instead of actually helping me mold them and then point to me and go 'you're an idiot' because at that point you touch my Fi (I value myself and don't consider myself an idiot, basically). But ripping the idea to shreds is no problem. It's also never as perfect or as finished as when a Ti-user presents their ideas, because I just haven't gotten that far yet. Yet Ti-users are often nervous, anxious and downright scared to hear the critique coming their way. Meanwhile, I'm told that Fe-users take on board critique about how they *should* feel readily and without offence, while to me that's just ... inconceivable. Emotions are raw data and they want me to tamper with that for their convenience? Not to mention that the suggestion that I'm not allowed to feel whichever way I need to is just down right offensive. I *want* that raw material to build up that vital value system with which I understand and decide my world. Just like Ti-users *want* that raw material to build their ideas up. Meanwhile, I could care less about building an internal logic system - I'm just happy to know how to operate things and organise them for my convenience so I can navigate the world more easily, so the Te-system is plentiful for me but woefully inadequate for a Ti-users purpose.

That also means that when someone comes along (a boss, parent or other authority figure) who forces the Ti-user to abandon his internal logic system building and 'get with the program, already', that push will be detrimental to the development of Ti and therefore of the ego. While it may yield external, short term rewards, they will hardly satiate the Ti-user as those external rewards were never the point for them. In fact, they'll be more thant put out since the shift to Te and to things that do not motivate them creates more havoc and damage to their system than it does good - and they'll be the ones stuck with the clean-up as the Te-user will have moved on or worse - they'll be forcing them to continue creating a mess of their internal logic for the next unmotivating external goal that is forced upon them.

Meanwhile important internal work doesn't get done or gets corrupted by the external rules that are oppressing everything the Ti-user has been building their entire lives. The Ti-user loses motivation (as Te just doesn't reward them the same way), stops doing his best work and their internal system, all those questions they were still figuring out how to answer lies in a pile, rusting. Dusting that shit off and figuring out where what went again after such a treatment is...an insane amount of infuriating work.

And of course the same is true for Fi and Fe ( I wonder if it also works vice versa, but then I don't have an external judging function in my main stack). Interestingly, I bet it works equally so wrt Ni and Ne (as I discussed before) and Si and Se, but there it pertains to information rather than judgement. Judgement tends to be more sensitive as it's the root of our autonomy and agency, so it's more traumatic to have it be under attack, though certainly having your perceptions questioned, or foreign ones forced upon you as the correct ones instead, and having information demanded from you that you haven't processed yet (Si and Ni) is extremely threatening to your self-esteem as well and could cause paranoia. Just look at the frustration that most N users have with the Sensor world out there and the way that N-users here have often lashed out to Sensors in turn and the effect it had on those users (insecurity, keeping their mouth shut,etc).


/brain dump

Sorry, Tl,dr is definitely applicable here

 

[PeaceBaby]

Meanwhile, Fi-users are invested in their individuality and free will and woe to all that come near it in a threatening way.

Quick comment - that's an e4 flavoured attitude on Fi.

 

[Amargith]

Quick comment - that's an e4 flavoured attitude on Fi.

True, it was artistic license to add a dramatic flair to a sentence and drive home the point

 

[PeaceBaby]

True, it was artistic license to add a dramatic flair to a sentence and drive home the point

Well, it gives an impression that doesn't have a universal applicability to truth. Thus to me feels like a rabbit hole.