HELP ME. (male INTJ/female ENFP, romantic)

[Hapyniss]

And the INTJ doesn't have pain that should be spared? Just because ENFP's feel more, feel easier, feel more quickly and fully, it makes them superior to the INTJ that might be taking a bit more time to see if there is something workable here, they must be the problem? She was suffocatingly needy and manipulative and when she didn't get her way with him, she says whatever will get the fastest action from him. Threats of suicide in this case. But her pain is what matters here, right?

I neither said or inferred any of this. My point is merely that, yes...she is suffocatingly needy and manipulative. I'm not going to justify her actions or minimize the pain they caused the INTJ. I agree with you and this statement. But the INTJ must have given her that space (enabledd) because he said they were spending 6 days a week together. Now, correct me here, but INTJ's don't let people "take" their space, they give it? That is an assumption based on experience by my part, but if they were spending 6 nights a week together, he's spending 6 nights a week with her. Why didn't he say something to the effect that it's too much? Even if he cares about her fully and deeply, which I am acknowledging that he clearly does, it's his responsibility in the relationship to communicate his needs, not always for the ENFP to intuit them. It is one-sided to say that she is needy while not acceptably expecting that he is also non-communicative; and this leads to unrealistic expectations and a poor outcome. This would not be exclusive to an INTJ/ENFP relationship either. If any MBTI types together were not clearly communicating their needs this could very well be the same outcome. I will pose this as a final thought:
[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] - help to translate my ENFPness to the INTJ's here because you're really good at it...

INTJ's...Sometimes the temporary expenditure of energy to reactionary emotional fall-out as a result of expressing your needs clearly early on in a relationship can prevent future demise of the entire relationship. Particularly, with an ENFP. Furthermore, it may spare both the hurt of an investment in a relationship that has no fundamental compatibility.

 

[Hapyniss]

some clarifications may need to be made here.

-not sure where this 4-month period is being extrapolated from, but i do realize i may have worded the timetable a bit unclearly.

july 20, 2014: we start dating
oct/nov(?) ?? 2014: infidelity happened (i apologize for the inaccuracy of the dates. i have problems tracking exact dates of things that are traumatic to me)
...: one year(+?) period where we try to work things out (not 4 months)
oct 08, 2015: i break up with her





This is why. I think there comes a point in an INTJs relationship where s/he trusts so deeply that it's easier to (attempt to) work through things with someone despite shattered trust (there's that desire for integrity again) than it is to start over. Each one may have a threshold of where the "fixing point singularity" is, but we'd have to be very invested to even consider it.



This is, quite unfortunately, also true (at least in the US). Being, perhaps, an unconventional-lookin' feller, plus:
-male (in heteronormative romantic relationships in the US, we are largely subservient to the female's desire, or lack thereof, of a relationship with us)
-a highly introverted person (who does still desire the deep and intimate understanding/companionship of another)
-a christian who wishes to date within his faith (and the reality of it is not many people in my age group follow the faith anymore. not that i blame them; the media does a fantastic job of cherry-picking some of the most egregiously off-kilter whackjobs that parade around under the same name)
-in my 30s (which can go either way, to be perfectly honest. some women dig older men- but i've been told i look younger than 30, so i don't immediately attract them. other women prefer to date younger men as they're more dynamic and don't have such a firm and established life/goals/etc. yet- but i'm a 30 year old that feels 50 because of how "old" i act. i already know what i want in life and i'm trying to take steps to get there, gorram it! see: INTJ. this is different from maturity, but rather a sort of "meta-age" or "perceived internal age" perhaps.)
--i think the latter had a big play into the ending of this relationship, by the way. she couldn't understand why i, for the life of me, would NOT want to just up and move to India on a moment's whim.
-not very emotionally expressive (at least, not naturally and certainly not during a first impression/initial encounter. and i'm fairly certain the initial encounter with someone plays a large part on whether or not they want to entertain the possibility of a relationship with you. i think i remember some study about it.)

all in all, i think men have it a lot more rough than women perceive us to (keeping in mind a vast majority of this is US-centric, because that's what I know)- because on top of all that, there's still the (both cultural and, often (but not always), directly from our partner) expectation to be the steady one and "keep it together". let that pain or struggle show? (usually an) instant turn off (despite most women saying they want a vulnerable and emotive, or "sensitive", man- the numbers do actually say otherwise. i can track down the citations on request, but i don't want to lose my train of thought right now), so you can add THAT to the list above of what we(I) am up against if it is shown.


I will admit that thinking I could keep this particular relationship forever and repair it (in the timeline she wants, for reasons given above) was a gross overestimation of my capabilities, but that brings me to this:



Which is SPOT. ON. We need a lot of time to ourselves in introspection (and sometimes just being) if we want to keep that connection to our feelings (as rickety as it may be) open to even BEGIN to work out how we feel about something like this.
Guess what was not afforded to me (okay, okay; I acquiesced to her demand for)? My time alone. Time for introspection. Time when we get to send out all our little emotion-nanites (am I the only one that has this imagery?) that crawl over our already beaten hearts and try to repair it, while sending up packets/fragments of emotional data we can piece together and process. This takes a fair bit of time, and it needs to happen in an environment we feel ENTIRELY safe in (alone), not MOSTLY safe in (someone we trust a whole fucking bunch).

I hope I've clarified this.


(she still is trying to get in touch with me and can't accept it's over. she sees it as a break, i think. i haven't even been responding. fingers crossed she starts delving into the introspection soon, because it seems to be something she's afraid of. sorry, i can't grow you internally- only you can do that.)

Thank you for sharing more details. This was completely helpful in my holistic view on the situation.

 

[CO-in-Gnito]

Why didn't he say something to the effect that [giving her that amount of time is] too much?

well, i did. on several occasions, in multiple ways. either she didn't take it to heart (is that a normal ENFP thing? you usually only need to tell an INTJ something like this once. maybe that's why we hate repeating things like this- it feels like you aren't matching our effort), or she didn't care. in either case, she definitely doesn't understand introverts.

 

[Coriolis]

[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] - help to translate my ENFPness to the INTJ's here because you're really good at it...

INTJ's...Sometimes the temporary expenditure of energy to reactionary emotional fall-out as a result of expressing your needs clearly early on in a relationship can prevent future demise of the entire relationship. Particularly, with an ENFP. Furthermore, it may spare both the hurt of an investment in a relationship that has no fundamental compatibility.

If anything, I would be better at translating INTJ to ENFPs, but I have no reason to suspect I am especially good at translating in either direction. Since you asked, though:

Your final paragraph, quoted above, presumes the INTJ understands his needs well enough to articulate them. Our frequent difficulty with this has already been pointed out, and is especially common when those needs are emotional or interpersonal. Moreover, sometimes it takes some kind of shock or surprise to make the INTJ realize the truth of the matter - something that suddenly makes him see the situation in a different way. Otherwise he will keep working toward that vision of a perfect (or at least good) relationship, ignorant of the elephant hiding in his blind spot. I won't claim that is how things played out here, but I can see it happening.

I was going to write that this doesn't absolve the INTJ from his part in the failure of the relationship, but I do think that in this case, the failure itself was primarily due to the immaturity of the ENFP. The INTJs behavior thus affected only how long it took for them to break up.

well, let's provide a model-
which is demonized in US culture?

SCENARIO 1:
GIRL: hey, you're my true love; commit to me.
GUY: no. that's crazy.

SCENARIO 2:
GUY: hey, you're my true love. commit to me.
GIRL: no. that's crazy.

generally, we demonize the man for being possessive (or needy) and console the woman in scenario 1 whereas we console the man (if anything) in scenario 2. additionally, with the growth of the female empowerment movement, scenario 2 is encouraged amongst the teen-somethings to the 30-somethings. those younger are too busy worrying about getting bubblegum out of their hair or whatever it is kids do these days. those older aren't very vocal either way, as they're too old for that shit.

this leads to the social voice- the one that's actually expressed by the majority of the external culture, rather than direct individuals' interactions- demanding male subservience to whether a female wants a relationship or not.

Neither scenario seems more or less realistic than the other, and I'm not sure why "female empowerment movements" would encourage women to blow off guys more than to initiate relationships with guys they like. Both seem equally "empowered" actions.

I don't spend time in situations where these kind of interactions play out, so I won't presume to comment on the frequency of either example. I do know that, as you pointed out earlier, women have traditionally been much more likely to stay in relationships that were unsatisfying to outright abusive, out of simple economic necessity. Unfortunately this situation has not changed as much as you seem to think. Though women are overall far less dependent on men economically than they used to be, plenty still rely on men for a significant part of their support. Yes, this means they don't take advantage of the opportunities for financial independence now available. And every guy who willingly supports a woman long-term enables this dependence. (Which is why I said men should look for independent women.)

Moreover, earnings potential aside, far too many women still grow up with the idea that they need to have a man; that they are somehow incomplete unless they are part of a couple. This leads them to put up with substandard guys far more and far longer than they should. From what I have seen, guys don't feel the same compulsion. If anything, they see more merit or at least social acceptance in playing the field. Regardless, women in bad relationships should vote with their feet, and so should men.

 

[CO-in-Gnito]

Moreover, sometimes it takes some kind of shock or surprise to make the INTJ realize the truth of the matter - something that suddenly makes him see the situation in a different way. Otherwise he will keep working toward that vision of a perfect (or at least good) relationship, ignorant of the elephant hiding in his blind spot. I won't claim that is how things played out here, but I can see it happening.

Yep. I don't know if I even had a shock instance in this case, it was moreso that I finally got fed up enough to forcefully demand (by way of, and take note ENFPs- ignoring her; that's the only course of force we have left sometimes) my personal space, and was able to process what I should have (and would have liked to) a while back.

 

[Hapyniss]

well, i did. on several occasions, in multiple ways. either she didn't take it to heart (is that a normal ENFP thing? you usually only need to tell an INTJ something like this once. maybe that's why we hate repeating things like this- it feels like you aren't matching our effort), or she didn't care. in either case, she definitely doesn't understand introverts.

Oh ok. Your actions didn't follow your words. Hopefully this will shed some light into the world of ENFP mind. We are conceptual verbalizers, not syntax/semantic communicators. So we are not as focused on the words that we are using/or you are saying but the concept of what we/you mean. (We'll often even make-up words to suit our concept - not helpful) INTJ's seemingly choose their words carefully and speak in context rather than concept. Summary: when listening to an ENFP try to hear beyond the words. Try to grasp the concept. I've challenged myself to better word choice when communicating here with INTJ's in an effort to mutually understand. I also try to be less wordy and more concise. Not a strength. I'm open to correctional criticism and helpful tips.

NOTE: Words literally mean very little to ENFP's. Actions are what we pay attention to.
[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] - you've done great every time you've transposed my statements before as evidenced by INTJ's responding more contextually appropriate.

I would say that for an immature ENFP, selfishness is the norm. We can be very demanding. That's not to say that we don't care a whole bunch, because we feel and care very deeply about the person we are with. Our illogical actions may not be in line with what we feel. That kind of self awareness isn't always attributed to maturity either. Sometimes it's these exact types of break ups that wake us up. Shock value for ENFP's works too. She definitely cares a great deal for you, otherwise wouldn't be willing to make an idiot of herself by still calling and trying. She does get it, but she's pushing her agenda rather than accepting yours. She doesn't understand you. She doesn't really understand herself.

She may have been matching your effort but in a different love language. For most ENFP's it's physical affection and words of affirmation. Most INTJ's its quality time and acts of service. (To note: sometimes it's about giving the INTJ his quality time with himself). Not all, but most. I'm a physical affection quality time ENFP. This may be why I'm more suited for INTJ relationships than other ENFP's. I have found too, though that it takes a lot of patience and consistent effort to communicate until we understand each other. Plenty of clarification is needed.

 

[Coriolis]

Oh ok. Your actions didn't follow your words. Hopefully this will shed some light into the world of ENFP mind. We are conceptual verbalizers, not syntax/semantic communicators. So we are not as focused on the words that we are using/or you are saying but the concept of what we/you mean. (We'll often even make-up words to suit our concept - not helpful) INTJ's seemingly choose their words carefully and speak in context rather than concept. Summary: when listening to an ENFP try to hear beyond the words. Try to grasp the concept. I've challenged myself to better word choice when communicating here with INTJ's in an effort to mutually understand. I also try to be less wordy and more concise. Not a strength. I'm open to correctional criticism and helpful tips.

NOTE: Words literally mean very little to ENFP's. Actions are what we pay attention to.

Actions speak far louder than words to INTJs also. On a forum like this, though, words are all we have. We do choose them very carefully, here and IRL. I for one find it counterproductive and almost disrespectful when someone doesn't follow suit by attending equally carefully to those words. Moreover, the highlighted sounds suspiciously like making assumptions to me, and we all know where that leads. If an ENFP (or other) can work with this, I am more than willing to tolerate his/her rambling, wordiness, and pseudo-words.

 

[Hapyniss]

Actions speak far louder than words to INTJs also. On a forum like this, though, words are all we have. We do choose them very carefully, here and IRL. I for one find it counterproductive and almost disrespectful when someone doesn't follow suit by attending equally carefully to those words. Moreover, the highlighted sounds suspiciously like making assumptions to me, and we all know where that leads. If an ENFP (or other) can work with this, I am more than willing to tolerate his/her rambling, wordiness, and pseudo-words.

This is a very challenging expectation of any ENFP. We have a difficult time articulating as we think. It's only after a great deal of processing that we can express our thoughts. Very much in the way that an INTJ requires introspection to access/express their feelings. Please do not take this difference as disrespectful. It is not certainly intended this way. Very much that an INTJ still loves someone even if they don't frequently express this.

concept: an abstract idea; a general notion. INTJ = detail/pragmatic compared to ENFP. ENFP=generalizations. Not necessarily assumptions. There can be clarification and probably a requisite of communicating between the two for greater comprehension. So it necessitates a pong-ing back and forth. Just like on here. Every time we share back and forth here, I understand better each time. How about you?

Very much the way I can pry an INTJ open in social/emotional situations and challenge them to stretch beyond their capabilities, INTJ's have this effect on my communication. They are able to ask questions and pry into my mind to extrapolate the information that I have a difficult time expressing. If they're patient enough.

 

[Coriolis]

This is a very challenging expectation of any ENFP. We have a difficult time articulating as we think. It's only after a great deal of processing that we can express our thoughts. Very much in the way that an INTJ requires introspection to access/express their feelings. Please do not take this difference as disrespectful. It is not certainly intended this way. Very much that an INTJ still loves someone even if they don't frequently express this.

I'm not expecting ENFPs to express their thoughts the way an INTJ does, just to try to take in what an INTJ says in the spirit intended, by focusing on the words.

concept: an abstract idea; a general notion. INTJ = detail/pragmatic compared to ENFP. ENFP=generalizations. Not necessarily assumptions. There can be clarification and probably a requisite of communicating between the two for greater comprehension. So it necessitates a pong-ing back and forth. Just like on here. Every time we share back and forth here, I understand better each time. How about you?

Of course, because you answer my questions (i.e. respond to my words). Also, I wouldn't call INTJS detail-oriented. We are pragmatic, but in a big-picture, end-goal sense. We share N with ENFPs, which should help communication, and probably does.

They are able to ask questions and pry into my mind to extrapolate the information that I have a difficult time expressing. If they're patient enough.

I had an INFP once tell me that I did this for him. It was unexpected.

 

[Hapyniss]

I'm not expecting ENFPs to express their thoughts the way an INTJ does, just to try to take in what an INTJ says in the spirit intended, by focusing on the words.


Of course, because you answer my questions (i.e. respond to my words). Also, I wouldn't call INTJS detail-oriented. We are pragmatic, but in a big-picture, end-goal sense. We share N with ENFPs, which should help communication, and probably does.


I had an INFP once tell me that I did this for him. It was unexpected.

I guess it's the same principle though. If I were engaged in conversation that was thought provoking, I may not be able to understand wittingly. I would need time to process before I even understood fully what was said. I do make an effort to focus on the words and their meaning.

Ok. Noted. Maybe that's just my INTJ. He is big-picture too, but can tend to focus on minutia sometimes. Sharing that N is the reason why we "click"! I love that feeling that I can talk about anything and everything with other NT's.

I'm glad you've had that experience before so you know what I'm talking about.

 

[EcK]

Actions speak far louder than words to INTJs also. On a forum like this, though, words are all we have. We do choose them very carefully, here and IRL. I for one find it counterproductive and almost disrespectful when someone doesn't follow suit by attending equally carefully to those words. Moreover, the highlighted sounds suspiciously like making assumptions to me, and we all know where that leads. If an ENFP (or other) can work with this, I am more than willing to tolerate his/her rambling, wordiness, and pseudo-words.

So you mean you broke up with me because you didn't feel respected?

 

[CO-in-Gnito]

Maybe that's just my INTJ. He is big-picture too, but can tend to focus on minutia sometimes.

for us (at least for me), minutiae is VERY important- if it relates to the "plan" we have for the goal. they're points of data. all irrelevant data can be discarded, all relevant data must be factored in. know how we have our feedback loop? that's specifically what happens when we need those fine points, those details for our analysis and planning (and can't get them- either because they're unavailable to us/we don't have access to them, or they don't exist).

which is why you may see us shaving a yak. it may appear to be pointless, but it's relevant to our plan. at least, we consider it to be.


so while we are big-picture oriented and tend to operate in that place mentally, we loves us some (relevant) details.

and trivia. gorRAM do i love trivia. i have no fucking idea how that plays into the above, though.

 

[gromit]

I dated an INTJ a couple years ago. I did feel like he was distant, with actions and emotions and in other ways. He was not willing to compromise because it would be inauthentic. We reached an impasse with several issues (and circumstances) and ended things, so that was that. But still, I don't get why FPs get that stereotype about authenticity because in my opinion he was just as ridiculous as any FP with his need to be "true to himself".

Anyway I'm not excusing what your GF did, but I think I can relate to some of what she feels.

 

[Hapyniss]

for us (at least for me), minutiae is VERY important- if it relates to the "plan" we have for the goal. they're points of data. all irrelevant data can be discarded, all relevant data must be factored in. know how we have our feedback loop? that's specifically what happens when we need those fine points, those details for our analysis and planning (and can't get them- either because they're unavailable to us/we don't have access to them, or they don't exist).

which is why you may see us shaving a yak. it may appear to be pointless, but it's relevant to our plan. at least, we consider it to be.


so while we are big-picture oriented and tend to operate in that place mentally, we loves us some (relevant) details.

and trivia. gorRAM do i love trivia. i have no fucking idea how that plays into the above, though.

All good stuff to know, thanks! I liked the link so I could Wiki it LOL. (You read my mind) Otherwise, I would've just Googled that bitch!
Yes, I'm starting to realize that ALL things are done with purpose and I need to pay attention. This is not something with which I'm well versed at the moment as I've not been challenged to think/act/feel in this way in my life. <grabs clippers and contributes>

I think it def is linked to original statement in that the train of thought correlates with yak shaved information (i.e. trivia) Sometimes it may seem irrelevant to know until you play a game and win! Then it's boss!

I enjoy the occasional peering into the INTJ mind. It's like walking through a Fun House. I see soooooo many possibilities. Endless threads of conversation and ideas. Brilliant!

How to you decipher between relevant and irrelevant data? Are there clues/cues that you specifically look for?

 

[CO-in-Gnito]

He was not willing to compromise because it would be inauthentic. We reached an impasse with several issues (and circumstances) and ended things, so that was that. But still, I don't get why FPs get that stereotype about authenticity because in my opinion he was just as ridiculous as any FP with his need to be "true to himself".

i can definitely see how this can be utterly frustrating to an outsider.

truth be told, we're incredibly flexible in many ways- as long as (we feel) it doesn't compromise our integrity. i'm sure you picked up on that. integrity is very, very important to us. (integrity here as being defined as being "true to yourself"). we consider compromise as something bigger- not 50/50 (or sometimes compromise is 40/60, 20/80, whatever- compromise is something very context-specific) on one particular issue, but rather as how it relates to the entirety of the project/relationship/what have you. we're pretty holistic in that sense. we have a few things we will NOT want to budge on, because we invest all of our caring into those things (they're essential to our "plans" or "roadmaps"). everything else we'll happily do, even to the point of exhaustion, because we don't have any investment in one preference or another and we do want to make an effort to appease. again, as long as we feel those things don't relate to the plan we have.

i think it's the same (well, similar) as what ENFPs have, but they implement their feelings towards maintaining integrity- they need to (and correct me if i'm wrong, ENFPs) feel like the proposed solution doesn't go against how they FEEL about themself, and how they FEEL they are.

INTJs on the other hand- we implement our integrity inside our roadmaps and plans. the ENFP says "i want to be someone who does X". the INTJ says "i want to do X (and don't really care if i feel like i am doing X or not, as long as X gets done and done well)". i think. but if something contradicts with HOW we want to do X, that will cause us some severe discomfort.

in short form:
INTJ: method + implementation = goal
ENFP: goal + experiences = implementation (ENFPs- y/n?)

(note that it one form works well for some things, procedural things for instance- writing a book, for instance. i can probably pump out a half-decent book in a year or less if i cared to (but it might be boring as heck). the other form works a lot better for organic type things, which is why ENFPs are a lot better at comforting (and throw some totally bitchin' parties).)

 

[CO-in-Gnito]

Sometimes it may seem irrelevant to know until you play a game and win! Then it's boss!

if you had a team of INTXs (and possibly ISTXs) on a quizzo team, game over- you know who won already.

i think the trivia fascination moreso has to do with building our library- "oh, this type of african plant can dissolve human flesh, filed away. (i never know when i'll be stuck in an african jungle.)"

How to you decipher between relevant and irrelevant data? Are there clues/cues that you specifically look for?

you know, i don't know. we kind of just "know". this is probably related to our intuition functions paired with our judging functions. once in a while we misjudge the importance of a data point, but we're generally pretty accurate with relevance of data. problem is there's a LOT of data to gather to get a whole picture, and we want the whole picture, so we sometimes have to make do. if we can arrive at a clear answer with the limited data, we avoid the feedback loop (but sometimes, of course- that answer could be totally wrong).

assuming it's something that can't have a factual/pragmatic basis (like maths, engineering-related things, etc. can/do), then pattern recognition and basing it on past relational data for similar situations (if available) probably has a lot to do with it, honestly. otherwise documentation/hard science already done on the thing is where we typically look to (occasionally desiring to prove/disprove along the way, for both implementations, if we feel that the situations the information was gathered under wasn't ideal).

 

[Hapyniss]

i can definitely see how this can be utterly frustrating to an outsider.

truth be told, we're incredibly flexible in many ways- as long as (we feel) it doesn't compromise our integrity. i'm sure you picked up on that. integrity is very, very important to us. (integrity here as being defined as being "true to yourself"). we consider compromise as something bigger- not 50/50 (or sometimes compromise is 40/60, 20/80, whatever- compromise is something very context-specific) on one particular issue, but rather as how it relates to the entirety of the project/relationship/what have you. we're pretty holistic in that sense. we have a few things we will NOT want to budge on, because we invest all of our caring into those things (they're essential to our "plans" or "roadmaps"). everything else we'll happily do, even to the point of exhaustion, because we don't have any investment in one preference or another and we do want to make an effort to appease. again, as long as we feel those things don't relate to the plan we have.

i think it's the same (well, similar) as what ENFPs have, but they implement their feelings towards maintaining integrity- they need to (and correct me if i'm wrong, ENFPs) feel like the proposed solution doesn't go against how they FEEL about themself, and how they FEEL they are.

INTJs on the other hand- we implement our integrity inside our roadmaps and plans. the ENFP says "i want to be someone who does X". the INTJ says "i want to do X (and don't really care if i feel like i am doing X or not, as long as X gets done and done well)". i think. but if something contradicts with HOW we want to do X, that will cause us some severe discomfort.

in short form:
INTJ: method + implementation = goal
ENFP: goal + experiences = implementation (ENFPs- y/n?)

(note that it one form works well for some things, procedural things for instance- writing a book, for instance. i can probably pump out a half-decent book in a year or less if i cared to (but it might be boring as heck). the other form works a lot better for organic type things, which is why ENFPs are a lot better at comforting (and throw some totally bitchin' parties).)

if you had a team of INTXs (and possibly ISTXs) on a quizzo team, game over- you know who won already.

i think the trivia fascination moreso has to do with building our library- "oh, this type of african plant can dissolve human flesh, filed away. (i never know when i'll be stuck in an african jungle.)"




you know, i don't know. we kind of just "know". this is probably related to our intuition functions paired with our judging functions. once in a while we misjudge the importance of a data point, but we're generally pretty accurate with relevance of data. problem is there's a LOT of data to gather to get a whole picture, and we want the whole picture, so we sometimes have to make do. if we can arrive at a clear answer with the limited data, we avoid the feedback loop (but sometimes, of course- that answer could be totally wrong).

assuming it's something that can't have a factual/pragmatic basis (like maths, engineering-related things, etc. can/do), then pattern recognition and basing it on past relational data for similar situations (if available) probably has a lot to do with it, honestly. otherwise documentation/hard science already done on the thing is where we typically look to (occasionally desiring to prove/disprove along the way, for both implementations, if we feel that the situations the information was gathered under wasn't ideal).

Totally agree. All too often I hear the sound of screeching tires as I wave my hand wildly in front of my face to rapidly disperse the dust emerging to find INTJ in the lead! It's either passenger seat, sidecare, or bleachers with pom poms for this gal. (Sure, I'll be the Bonnie to this Clyde). Try as I might, my Ti needs to get the bird for holding me back. The desire is intensely sardonic because my roll-a-dex turns a bit slower. Excruciating! But I whittle circles around INTJ's when I get on my feels! And in social situations, WATCH OUT! This girl got this! I. Know. Everyone. Or will by the end of the night.

Postulation: What if there isn't pragmatic empirical data? Like with relational interaction. (Fibonacci sequence can't help ya here) How do you decipher/acquire data?

 

[gromit]

i can definitely see how this can be utterly frustrating to an outsider.

truth be told, we're incredibly flexible in many ways- as long as (we feel) it doesn't compromise our integrity. i'm sure you picked up on that. integrity is very, very important to us. (integrity here as being defined as being "true to yourself"). we consider compromise as something bigger- not 50/50 (or sometimes compromise is 40/60, 20/80, whatever- compromise is something very context-specific) on one particular issue, but rather as how it relates to the entirety of the project/relationship/what have you. we're pretty holistic in that sense. we have a few things we will NOT want to budge on, because we invest all of our caring into those things (they're essential to our "plans" or "roadmaps"). everything else we'll happily do, even to the point of exhaustion, because we don't have any investment in one preference or another and we do want to make an effort to appease. again, as long as we feel those things don't relate to the plan we have.

Well, if there are disagreements on those core things and nobody's gonna budge then nothing is going to go anywhere. Then you have to be ok with it going nowhere.

 

[CO-in-Gnito]

Postulation: What if there isn't pragmatic empirical data? Like with relational interaction. (Fibonacci sequence can't help ya here) How do you decipher/acquire data?

(SNIP)then pattern recognition and basing it on past relational data for similar situations (if available)(SNIP)

now, if there's NOTHING for us to go on for these type of things? that's when we start to freak out (and, i suspect, one of the situations in which ENFPs and other external feelers help us). they give us the raw data we need by guiding us through it (or, in the worst cases, perhaps dragging us through it, though then that experience gets a negative relation in our minds).

 

[CO-in-Gnito]

Well, if there are disagreements on those core things and nobody's gonna budge then nothing is going to go anywhere. Then you have to be ok with it going nowhere.

yep, pretty much. the trick is to find someone that either has different core things than you (that don't conflict with your core things), or the same alignments on those core things (with the same approach or a non-conflicting approach- latter is preferred, as it strengthens the overall approach). otherwise it's just going to be a shitshow.