HELP ME. (male INTJ/female ENFP, romantic)

[Coriolis]

she replied she was already there. my roommate (fairly matured/self-actualized female ENFP, long-term good friend) went out to her instead and they ENFP'd together. i hung out inside and calmed down with my third roommate, a male ENTP (and a surprisingly mature one at that- not mature in that i'm trying to imply that ENTPs typically aren't, i mean he's remarkably self-actualized for an early 20-something). i feel a lot better now.

These situations are rarely easy, even when all for the best as your case seems to be. You are fortunate in your choice of friends/roommates. Those were good deeds they both did. You did the right thing, in the right way.

she wants to see me "tomorrow or in a few days" when i "feel less raw, frustrated, and exhausted". doesn't she understand my mind's already made up? ENFPs (or those with a deep understanding of ENFP), can you decipher that?

I recommend against seeing her or even contacting her any time soon. A brief "my decision is final" might be necessary if she continues to pester you with texts, but that's all. Not only does she need to calm down, but she needs distance from you as well, to start seeing herself and working on herself as a separate and independent person again. This is something I suspect will come much easier to you. Your decision to see a therapist is a good indication of it. Good luck. As you said, at least it was a valuable learning experience, with some enjoyable times along the way as well.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

yeah. i'm sorry too. but i agree- it was necessary. i should have done it earlier, i wish i had the foresight and Fi to make the choice long ago. i think it would have been easier on both of us that way. (hence, therapy)


how is/was it? do you feel a tangible benefit from it?

(also, congrats on almost-1k posts, and thank you)

Well, I opened up to a friend, then to my therapist, then to my family, then to more friends, then on here (my too revealing blog is now in private blogs for which 500 posts are required to view), which led me to open to more family, and more friends, etc.

It has been wonderful and transforming. I haven't revealed all my layers to the world, but opening up has had zero negative impacts yet.... And I no longer feel alone in the universe, which I felt most of my life.

Of course, the person I most want to open up to is my wife, but it is a slow work in progress. Maybe, one day........I hope....

 

[Coriolis]

Of course, the person I most want to open up to is my wife, but it is a slow work in progress. Maybe, one day........I hope....

Why are those closest to us sometimes the hardest to reach???

I wish I had 1/10 the courage and creativity you have displayed in addressing personal and inter-personal challenges. It is hard to let go, especially when you don't know exactly what you need to let go of.

 

[Kheledon]

Love is rare and precious. My gut would say to hang on for dear life, but I am an ENFJ with a primary sx instinct, and that's just what I do. It would probably be healthier (for both of you) to move on. Of course, this is a very personal decision, and your decision, one hopes, will be the right one for you. To quote Obi-Wan Kenobi, "You must do what you feel is right, of course."

 

[Betty Blue]

I really don't think ENFP's should be allowed near INTJ's until they are at least 30 (mentally). It really pisses me off the amount of sealing off of emotions they are accountable for. To the Op...I hope you move on from this being able to let someone else in. I think you made the right choice breaking up and I do promise that, though I don't think the INTJ ENFP combo is the best, not all ENFP's are this rubbish (at relationships).

Of course I do know that she was not entirely to blame and i know what happens inside an ENFP's head when they don't get all the attention and praise they thrive on from an INTJ..... soooo.

I think you started this thread knowing the outcome... it was your relationship councillor... and we know how most of those end.

 

[Petals]

she wants to see me "tomorrow or in a few days" when i "feel less raw, frustrated, and exhausted". doesn't she understand my mind's already made up? ENFPs (or those with a deep understanding of ENFP), can you decipher that?

Pe doms are used to figuring out how to get things to go their way, and they are usually pretty charming about it to boot... so it works and reinforces that mode of behavior.

The majority of people also have a hard time realizing that not everyone thinks the same as them, or reacts the same as them. (It's just human nature.) So there is a possibility that she is thinking of this as the equivalent of you "threatening" to break up with her, and that she can somehow negotiate a change of mind. (Honestly you are doing the same thing in being surprised that "doesn't she understand my mind's already made up?")

And above all else, what transcends types, is that she is also just human. For a myriad of reasons this is not something she was expecting or desiring or under her control. A lot of people would react this same way. Being dumped is a blow to the ego and is pain. There is a desire to want to understand what happened and, often, how they might change it.

I say all of this above to offer a potential reasoning and possible insight into her possible thought process.

After reading your thread, it is clear that a break-up was the only solution.

Edit in regards to the Aftermath:

You cannot leave any room, any squeak of light sneaking through to let her think that there is a 1% of 1% of .1% chance of getting back together again. Keep a firm hard line of "this is my final decision" and that you will not entertain any further contact from her. Let your roommates know your stance as well. Block her cell phone number and take it out of your phone. Block her email or create a rule that it automatically gets deleted. If she shows up at your house, stay polite but firm.

Alternatively you could leave the option of "discussing" the ending in a few weeks to help her get closure. But that is a personal choice up to you.

 

[Hapyniss]

Love is rare and precious. My gut would say to hang on for dear life, but I am an ENFJ with a primary sx instinct, and that's just what I do. It would probably be healthier (for both of you) to move on. Of course, this is a very personal decision, and your decision, one hopes, will be the right one for you. To quote Obi-Wan Kenobi, "You must do what you feel is right, of course."

View attachment 14738

Not sure we can call infidelity love. And getting drunk was the choice she originally made to "hide" behind that excuse later. Even if she didn't want to admit it was a form of retaliation and neediness on her part. Also qualities not conducive of a healthy, long-term relationship with any type.

 

[Hapyniss]

For all the people that think this is a stellar relationship combo....here you go.

I completely get where you are coming from with this. Naturally, the fraternizing with the guy she cheated on you with is the most critical issue but the smaller things (the suffocating neediness, the lack of compatibility in interests) are in no way small. The somewhat suicidal incident would have me packing my bags too. If she hates your calm coolness and sees her loosing her shit as just an expression of her passion - this will never change and only get worse as time goes on. This is an important thing to point out because it is a core part of your personality and hers. I don't like being called a robot anymore than you do but someone kind of has to be when dealing with a more volatile personality.

Unfortunately, I don't think it matters which way you try to end it, if you decide to do so. It's going to be bad. Probably in the most forward (in person) gentle way possible would be the best but you may not get that far.

In my experience, ENFP's can rationalize and justify almost anything. This would including cheating. I also understand regaining trust (if ever). Long time for INTJ's and some can't or won't ever understand this. My ENFJ doesn't either so you're not alone. While I understand being attracted to your opposite, this is just too opposite in a lot of cases.

I don't know that this is type specific though. Not all ENFP's cheat. Not all INTJ's are faithful. In this instance, it can be also said that it was emotionally irresponsible of the INTJ, knowing that cheating is a deal breaker, to "try on for size" furthering a relationship at the ENFP's emotional expense and his own. No one should know this about themselves and make justifications for not ending it sooner. For 4 additional months he acted as if he had worked past that, but never shared that he continued to struggle with it. So they were both wrong and immature. Imagine how this must feel for her after 4 months of continuation, and I'm sure him showing her affection, time, blah blah blah. But, for whatever reason the ENFP is the fall guy here. There are 2 sides to every story but way to give the INTJ the benefit of the doubt over the ENFP.

 

[Kheledon]

Not sure we can call infidelity love. And getting drunk was the choice she originally made to "hide" behind that excuse later. Even if she didn't want to admit it was a form of retaliation and neediness on her part. Also qualities not conducive of a healthy, long-term relationship with any type.

I hate to stereotype, but I have an intuitive sense that women, generally speaking, are much less forgiving when it comes to betrayal of this kind. This dynamic has changed rapidly, of course, over the past 100 or so years as women have gained more power, wealth, independence, and the BCP (perhaps the most significant technological advance in human history). Whereas it used to be the case that a wife's dependence on her husband nearly forced her to forgive his indiscretions, these days the roles seem reversed. Women don't have to forgive anything. Men do, or we face a lifetime of loneliness, sadness, separation from our children (usually), and colossal child support debts. That's not a future that many of us relish, so men, these days, seem more eager to try to make a broken relationship work (because the alternative is worse).

Just my 2 cents. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Hapyniss]

I hate to stereotype, but I have an intuitive sense that women, generally speaking, are much less forgiving when it comes to betrayal of this kind. This dynamic has changed rapidly, of course, over the past 100 or so years as women have gained more power, wealth, independence, and the BCP (perhaps the most significant technological advance in human history). Whereas it used to be the case that a wife's dependence on her husband nearly forced her to forgive his indiscretions, these days the roles seem reversed. Women don't have to forgive anything. Men do, or we face a lifetime of loneliness, sadness, separation from our children (usually), and colossal child support debts. That's not a future that many of us relish, so men, these days, seem more eager to try to make a broken relationship work (because the alternative is worse).

Just my 2 cents. Thanks for the reply.

I may see where you're going with that. "Hell hath no fury...". Conversely, the pendulum is swinging back in sway as the courts and power that be are taking note to this effect. Sometimes good fathers ARE being kept from their children out of control/anger/manipulation, etc. (That's not to say that fathers aren't starting to abuse this influence either). However, I don't think that those [reasons you've listed] are the best reasons to make any relationship, no matter how broken, continue to work. There are some societal factors to consider, but all-in-all, those things are just cop-out adherence's to status-quo convention. There are plenty of alternatives before infidelity (i.e. - communication, counseling, books, etc.) Let's not forget that everyone is responsible for the choices that THEY make. This is what's wrong with being in a society of overly politically correct falsities. People have become overtly concerned with being "nice" rather than being forthright.

 

[Coriolis]

I don't know that this is type specific though. Not all ENFP's cheat. Not all INTJ's are faithful. In this instance, it can be also said that it was emotionally irresponsible of the INTJ, knowing that cheating is a deal breaker, to "try on for size" furthering a relationship at the ENFP's emotional expense and his own. No one should know this about themselves and make justifications for not ending it sooner. For 4 additional months he acted as if he had worked past that, but never shared that he continued to struggle with it. So they were both wrong and immature. Imagine how this must feel for her after 4 months of continuation, and I'm sure him showing her affection, time, blah blah blah. But, for whatever reason the ENFP is the fall guy here. There are 2 sides to every story but way to give the INTJ the benefit of the doubt over the ENFP.

Do you find it impossible that the INTJ (or person of any type) might care about the ENFP enough and value the relationship enough to try to move past it and give things another chance? Is it better to try to do this and have to admit failure in the end, or not to try at all and terminate the relationship at the first misstep on the part of one's partner? No one forced the ENFP in this relationship to stay after he gave her another chance. No one prevented her from sounding him out as to whether he really had forgiven her indiscretion. I hear this INTJ acknowledging his choices in this relationship, and taking responsibility for doing what needs to be done. It is unrealistic to expect more than this.

I hate to stereotype, but I have an intuitive sense that women, generally speaking, are much less forgiving when it comes to betrayal of this kind. This dynamic has changed rapidly, of course, over the past 100 or so years as women have gained more power, wealth, independence, and the BCP (perhaps the most significant technological advance in human history). Whereas it used to be the case that a wife's dependence on her husband nearly forced her to forgive his indiscretions, these days the roles seem reversed. Women don't have to forgive anything. Men do, or we face a lifetime of loneliness, sadness, separation from our children (usually), and colossal child support debts. That's not a future that many of us relish, so men, these days, seem more eager to try to make a broken relationship work (because the alternative is worse).

If you hate to stereotype, then don't. I find type trumps gender every time, including in relationships. That being said, a wife is still much more likely to be economically dependent on her husband than the reverse, resulting in the same tendency to tolerate infidelity. To avoid the reverse, men need only seek out women who are independent - financially and otherwise. Then if things don't work out, there is no obligation either way.

 

[Hapyniss]

Do you find it impossible that the INTJ (or person of any type) might care about the ENFP enough and value the relationship enough to try to move past it and give things another chance? Is it better to try to do this and have to admit failure in the end, or not to try at all and terminate the relationship at the first misstep on the part of one's partner? No one forced the ENFP in this relationship to stay after he gave her another chance. No one prevented her from sounding him out as to whether he really had forgiven her indiscretion. I hear this INTJ acknowledging his choices in this relationship, and taking responsibility for doing what needs to be done. It is unrealistic to expect more than this.


If you hate to stereotype, then don't. I find type trumps gender every time, including in relationships. That being said, a wife is still much more likely to be economically dependent on her husband than the reverse, resulting in the same tendency to tolerate infidelity. To avoid the reverse, men need only seek out women who are independent - financially and otherwise. Then if things don't work out, there is no obligation either way.

True. I agree that effort should be made if they care about one another. However, communication seems to be lacking here. He mentioned that he was spending 6 nights a week with her, which is tons for INTJ. How did that happen if he wasn't comfortable/didn't desire to spend that much time together? A couple other things too. Mostly though, if at any point he were struggling, it would have been very important to bring that to her. INTJ's do have the tendency to be very independent in coping/dealing with "problems" internalizing their process. ENFP's require direct communication in the same way as INTJ's. As an ENFP I can tell you that 4 months longer in the relationship, and hearing that the cheating was the problem all along, is extremely painful to learn. I would have continued in the relationship with the understanding that he was moving past that. For an INTJ, isn't 4 months more than enough time to realize that it continued to be a problem? Saying something sooner would've spared her pain.

 

[Kheledon]

I may see where you're going with that. "Hell hath no fury...". Conversely, the pendulum is swinging back in sway as the courts and power that be are taking note to this effect. Sometimes good fathers ARE being kept from their children out of control/anger/manipulation, etc. (That's not to say that fathers aren't starting to abuse this influence either). However, I don't think that those [reasons you've listed] are the best reasons to make any relationship, no matter how broken, continue to work. There are some societal factors to consider, but all-in-all, those things are just cop-out adherence's to status-quo convention. There are plenty of alternatives before infidelity (i.e. - communication, counseling, books, etc.) Let's not forget that everyone is responsible for the choices that THEY make. This is what's wrong with being in a society of overly politically correct falsities. People have become overtly concerned with being "nice" rather than being forthright.

I don't mean to justify infidelity, certainly. I have no trouble being forthright. My trouble is a lack of self-esteem caused by years of emotional abuse and years of paranoia caused by constant deceit. I will have trouble learning to trust again, and I do have children that I don't want to separate from their mother. All the same, I accept that some of my "rationalizations" are, in fact, "cop-outs." That said, the Courts have been very slow to implement the changes that some state legislatures in the U.S. have demanded in terms of equalizing the power of mothers and fathers in domestic relations law. In my area of the world, it is very rare and difficult for fathers to get custody of their children post-divorce.

 

[Kheledon]

If you hate to stereotype, then don't. I find type trumps gender every time, including in relationships. That being said, a wife is still much more likely to be economically dependent on her husband than the reverse, resulting in the same tendency to tolerate infidelity. To avoid the reverse, men need only seek out women who are independent - financially and otherwise. Then if things don't work out, there is no obligation either way.

Just wanted to add that type does not trump gender in the domestic relations courts. It remains very difficult, under most situations, for fathers to be granted custody of their children post-divorce--and that's a fact, not a stereotype.

 

[highlander]

So first and foremost, INTJs- do you think I'm being unreasonable? Are there any other male INTJ/female ENFP's out there that have struggled through this- and came out successful on the other side?

I don't think you were in any way unreasonable. The relationship sounded suffocating to me. I feel for you having to go through all of this with the breakup and all. It has to be extremely difficult.

True. I agree that effort should be made if they care about one another. However, communication seems to be lacking here. He mentioned that he was spending 6 nights a week with her, which is tons for INTJ. How did that happen if he wasn't comfortable/didn't desire to spend that much time together? A couple other things too. Mostly though, if at any point he were struggling, it would have been very important to bring that to her. INTJ's do have the tendency to be very independent in coping/dealing with "problems" internalizing their process. ENFP's require direct communication in the same way as INTJ's. As an ENFP I can tell you that 4 months longer in the relationship, and hearing that the cheating was the problem all along, is extremely painful to learn. I would have continued in the relationship with the understanding that he was moving past that. For an INTJ, isn't 4 months more than enough time to realize that it continued to be a problem? Saying something sooner would've spared her pain.

My guess is that he loved her and was trying to make her happy. She sounds rather selfish to me and perhaps there is just too much incompatibility there. As to why it would take four months, INTJs don't always know how they feel or it takes a while to figure things out. He was trying to make things work and ultimately realized that he couldn't or they couldn't.

 

[ceecee]

True. I agree that effort should be made if they care about one another. However, communication seems to be lacking here. He mentioned that he was spending 6 nights a week with her, which is tons for INTJ. How did that happen if he wasn't comfortable/didn't desire to spend that much time together? A couple other things too. Mostly though, if at any point he were struggling, it would have been very important to bring that to her. INTJ's do have the tendency to be very independent in coping/dealing with "problems" internalizing their process. ENFP's require direct communication in the same way as INTJ's. As an ENFP I can tell you that 4 months longer in the relationship, and hearing that the cheating was the problem all along, is extremely painful to learn. I would have continued in the relationship with the understanding that he was moving past that. For an INTJ, isn't 4 months more than enough time to realize that it continued to be a problem? Saying something sooner would've spared her pain.

And the INTJ doesn't have pain that should be spared? Just because ENFP's feel more, feel easier, feel more quickly and fully, it makes them superior to the INTJ that might be taking a bit more time to see if there is something workable here, they must be the problem? She was suffocatingly needy and manipulative and when she didn't get her way with him, she says whatever will get the fastest action from him. Threats of suicide in this case. But her pain is what matters here, right?

 

[CO-in-Gnito]

some clarifications may need to be made here.

-not sure where this 4-month period is being extrapolated from, but i do realize i may have worded the timetable a bit unclearly.

july 20, 2014: we start dating
oct/nov(?) ?? 2014: infidelity happened (i apologize for the inaccuracy of the dates. i have problems tracking exact dates of things that are traumatic to me)
...: one year(+?) period where we try to work things out (not 4 months)
oct 08, 2015: i break up with her

Do you find it impossible that the INTJ (or person of any type) might care about the ENFP enough and value the relationship enough to try to move past it and give things another chance?(SNIP)

My guess is that he loved her and was trying to make her happy.(SNIP)

This is why. I think there comes a point in an INTJs relationship where s/he trusts so deeply that it's easier to (attempt to) work through things with someone despite shattered trust (there's that desire for integrity again) than it is to start over. Each one may have a threshold of where the "fixing point singularity" is, but we'd have to be very invested to even consider it.

(SNIP)Whereas it used to be the case that a wife's dependence on her husband nearly forced her to forgive his indiscretions, these days the roles seem reversed. Women don't have to forgive anything. Men do, or we face a lifetime of loneliness, sadness, separation from our children (usually), and colossal child support debts. That's not a future that many of us relish, so men, these days, seem more eager to try to make a broken relationship work (because the alternative is worse).

This is, quite unfortunately, also true (at least in the US). Being, perhaps, an unconventional-lookin' feller, plus:
-male (in heteronormative romantic relationships in the US, we are largely subservient to the female's desire, or lack thereof, of a relationship with us)
-a highly introverted person (who does still desire the deep and intimate understanding/companionship of another)
-a christian who wishes to date within his faith (and the reality of it is not many people in my age group follow the faith anymore. not that i blame them; the media does a fantastic job of cherry-picking some of the most egregiously off-kilter whackjobs that parade around under the same name)
-in my 30s (which can go either way, to be perfectly honest. some women dig older men- but i've been told i look younger than 30, so i don't immediately attract them. other women prefer to date younger men as they're more dynamic and don't have such a firm and established life/goals/etc. yet- but i'm a 30 year old that feels 50 because of how "old" i act. i already know what i want in life and i'm trying to take steps to get there, gorram it! see: INTJ. this is different from maturity, but rather a sort of "meta-age" or "perceived internal age" perhaps.)
--i think the latter had a big play into the ending of this relationship, by the way. she couldn't understand why i, for the life of me, would NOT want to just up and move to India on a moment's whim.
-not very emotionally expressive (at least, not naturally and certainly not during a first impression/initial encounter. and i'm fairly certain the initial encounter with someone plays a large part on whether or not they want to entertain the possibility of a relationship with you. i think i remember some study about it.)

all in all, i think men have it a lot more rough than women perceive us to (keeping in mind a vast majority of this is US-centric, because that's what I know)- because on top of all that, there's still the (both cultural and, often (but not always), directly from our partner) expectation to be the steady one and "keep it together". let that pain or struggle show? (usually an) instant turn off (despite most women saying they want a vulnerable and emotive, or "sensitive", man- the numbers do actually say otherwise. i can track down the citations on request, but i don't want to lose my train of thought right now), so you can add THAT to the list above of what we(I) am up against if it is shown.


I will admit that thinking I could keep this particular relationship forever and repair it (in the timeline she wants, for reasons given above) was a gross overestimation of my capabilities, but that brings me to this:

As to why it would take four months, INTJs don't always know how they feel or it takes a while to figure things out. He was trying to make things work and ultimately realized that he couldn't or they couldn't.

Which is SPOT. ON. We need a lot of time to ourselves in introspection (and sometimes just being) if we want to keep that connection to our feelings (as rickety as it may be) open to even BEGIN to work out how we feel about something like this.
Guess what was not afforded to me (okay, okay; I acquiesced to her demand for)? My time alone. Time for introspection. Time when we get to send out all our little emotion-nanites (am I the only one that has this imagery?) that crawl over our already beaten hearts and try to repair it, while sending up packets/fragments of emotional data we can piece together and process. This takes a fair bit of time, and it needs to happen in an environment we feel ENTIRELY safe in (alone), not MOSTLY safe in (someone we trust a whole fucking bunch).

I hope I've clarified this.


(she still is trying to get in touch with me and can't accept it's over. she sees it as a break, i think. i haven't even been responding. fingers crossed she starts delving into the introspection soon, because it seems to be something she's afraid of. sorry, i can't grow you internally- only you can do that.)

 

[Coriolis]

Just wanted to add that type does not trump gender in the domestic relations courts. It remains very difficult, under most situations, for fathers to be granted custody of their children post-divorce--and that's a fact, not a stereotype.

I was speaking of interpersonal relations, not law courts, obviously. I have never heard of a court of law that used typology in adjudicating cases. I would be surprised if any did.

-male (in heteronormative romantic relationships in the US, we are largely subservient to the female's desire, or lack thereof, of a relationship with us)

Were this true, many things in society would be quite different. You might have felt this to be the case in your relationship - though it was you who ended it here, and with justification - but is not that widespread.

 

[CO-in-Gnito]

well, let's provide a model-
which is demonized in US culture?

SCENARIO 1:
GIRL: hey, you're my true love; commit to me.
GUY: no. that's crazy.

SCENARIO 2:
GUY: hey, you're my true love. commit to me.
GIRL: no. that's crazy.

generally, we demonize the man for being possessive (or needy) and console the woman in scenario 1 whereas we console the man (if anything) in scenario 2. additionally, with the growth of the female empowerment movement, scenario 2 is encouraged amongst the teen-somethings to the 30-somethings. those younger are too busy worrying about getting bubblegum out of their hair or whatever it is kids do these days. those older aren't very vocal either way, as they're too old for that shit.

this leads to the social voice- the one that's actually expressed by the majority of the external culture, rather than direct individuals' interactions- demanding male subservience to whether a female wants a relationship or not.

note that i make a distinction with subservience to desire/lack thereof for a relationship rather than general subservience (though this is shifting as well, but most likely not as quickly as the above). though i suspect this is one of those things where we can't really get accurate empirical data- men experience one thing, women (i presume?) experience another, and they're conflicting, and any attempt to cross-collect data will alter the data being collected (because i'd suspect transsexualized individuals would experience something ENTIRELY different from both data sets).

it's a bit like quantum mechanics' superposition paradox, i suppose. you can't actually observe the state of an atom/photon without changing the state, so all you really have to go on is hypothetical models.
perhaps we can't determine where a social expectation for some empowerments stands without changing (or getting a complete outlier) the actual data.

but! regardless- there's a lot of shit there for sure.

(also, harlan ellison! have you played the point-and-click adaptation of I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream? rather different from the book, of course- but harlan himself narrated the protagonist and did the writing for the game, so it definitely feels like part of the canon.)

 

[CO-in-Gnito]

(though i guess AM is the antagonist, not protagonist. AM. he voices AM.)