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Do you believe in absolute truth?

bedeviled1

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You posed a philosophical question. Whether you want just a yes or no answer to that question? Not sure. I gave one. Anyone else expanding on explanation is venturing into philosophy. No escaping that.

Yes, I suppose I did. One meaning of philosophy is"a search for a general understanding of values and reality by chiefly speculative rather than observational means" Merriam-Webster.
That is the opposite of what I was searching get for. More observatonal than speculative. Something real. Truth.
 

Reborn Relic

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And your ok with that?

I mean, there's still a lot of truth in that. There's a layer that's missing, but at the same time there are definitely right and wrong conclusions to draw about the apparent world whether or not it exists in truth. It's not perfect for truth-seekers (I'm more a lover of glory :p ) but it's definitely still real in some way.
 

SearchingforPeace

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I do believe there is some absolute truths, but that we only see subjectively, so we don't see absolute truth well.

I do not believe the quest for absolute truth is worthless, though. The closer we get, the more clear our vision, the further our understanding, the better it is for us.

To reject absolute truth is to become rudderless, tossed around without foundation.

So most things are not explained in simple terms. For some things words are really insufficient......
 

Forever

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“If you want to know what 2 + 2 = 4 means,” says Wittgenstein, “you have to ask how we work it out,” because “we consider the process of calculation as the essential thing”

Took this from some website:

"As a student of mathematics, Russell had doubted his professors who told him that it should simply be accepted that 2 +2 = 4. These were self-evident truths - axioms. But reliance on such axioms troubled Russell: if mathematics relied upon self-evident statements, provable only by reference to themselves, its foundations were shaky indeed. Everyone knew that 2 + 2 = 4, but why? This simple axiom had never been proven. And if this was the case, the very basis and foundation of mathematics remained unproven."

[...]

"This proof of what cannot be proven should not be taken as an endorsement of anything-goes moral relativism, where every claim is equally valid. For although Wittgenstein showed that we cannot prove reason, we still have it, and must apply it, as Wittgenstein did to all parts of his life (as Ray Monk vividly describes in his outstanding biography). Not all claims are of equal merit. Every one must be tested rigorously to the limits – but there are limits, as Gödel and Wittgenstein showed us too: there is always something else.



In discovering that there is no bedrock of mathematics and indeed of logic itself, and that therefore nothing is completely certain, these heroic and often troubled figures instead showed us something of equal if not greater importance – the necessity of pluralism, of tolerance, and thus the very bedrock of that uncertain venture, a worthwhile civilization."

So yeah, even as 2 + 2 = 4 is uncertain. Logic is a human construction.
 

uumlau

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"Absolute truth" is either absurdly simple or extremely complex, and not a lot in between. There are some truths that are so reliable that even should they be "disproved", they're only disproved by "a little bit". For instance, Einstein didn't revoke Newton's Laws of Motion, he just tweaked them a little bit so that they worked with electromagnetic theory.

Many truths are relative and conditional and apply only in certain circumstances. For instance, thermodynamics is extremely accurate and reliable, but only because it's essentially doing statistics with many absurdly huge numbers of particles: when you limit a system to even just a thousand particles, thermodynamics doesn't work the same and you need to use statistical physics instead. The reverse is true, though: while statistical physics is useful at very small scales, and is mathematically consistent with thermodynamics, it becomes impractical to use on the scales where thermodynamics applies.

Now notice what is going on here: there is a physical reality that is being described, and it's kind of hard to say that that physical reality isn't "true" isn't "real" or what have you. It is what it is. The concept of "truth" comes into play when describing that reality. So the problem with "truth" isn't whether that which is being described is true, so much as whether the description is true.

Some things are easy to describe, and it is easy for those things to be "true" in an "absolute" sense. If you have a two apples, and you eat one, you will only have one apple left. That's easy to describe and it will always be absolutely true.

Other things are extremely difficult to describe: the human mind, how viruses work, the mechanics of the climate, the economy, and complex systems in general. It isn't unreasonable to conclude that it is impossible to write an absolutely true description of such things merely on the basis that it would take nigh-infinitely many words. Therefore we are stuck using incomplete descriptions in order to judge the truth of things. This is where "relative truth" comes into play: it's possible to have somewhat conflicting but equally valid incomplete descriptions of something.

At this point Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem is relevant. It says something that isn't too different from what I've said above, except that it proves it. Essentially, it says that for any sufficiently complex system, if it is consistent, it cannot be complete, and if it is complete it cannot be proven to be consistent. Another way of saying this is that there must exist statements within that system that CANNOT BE PROVED.

So "truth", per se, isn't entirely relevant: the level of knowledge and understanding that is possible is what matters. With any sufficiently complex system, you're not thinking in terms of truth or falsehood, but in terms of accuracy, in terms of how close does a description correspond to reality. Thus, technically speaking, there is no such thing as "absolute truth", but that does not imply that all truth is somehow "relative" or "subjective" or whatever. Far from it. Reality still exists. Things can be objectively measured and compared. What people say can be compared to reality, and others can judge how much bullshit is involved vs how much truth is involved by comparing words to reality.
 

bedeviled1

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I mean, there's still a lot of truth in that. There's a layer that's missing, but at the same time there are definitely right and wrong conclusions to draw about the apparent world whether or not it exists in truth. It's not perfect for truth-seekers (I'm more a lover of glory :p ) but it's definitely still real in some way.

Without trying to be critical, is it real or real to you?
What's the missing layer?
 

Lark

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I was undecided what topic to start this thread under because it encompasses all of them. The quest for truth seems to be a goal.that I will never attain. Not only in spiritual and moral subjects but in practically every aspect of my life their are daunting questions that seemingly have no answer. One of the philosophers said.something like...I know I am wise because I realize I know nothing...so, do you believe in absolute truth?

That was Socrates and he did not believe in relativism which was, and is still, considered the opposite of absolutism when it comes to truth or anything else for that matter.

The masters of relativism were the sophists, masters of sophistication in argument, in which they could and would argue any and all sides of any argument for a fee.
 

entropie

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sophisticated.

Absolute is math as in metaphysics. Metaphysics steal from physics. Most people who steal from physics never grasp physics. Therefore they never grasp dynamics, which is physics second grade. People think static.

absolute, relative. true, false.

People...
 

bedeviled1

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"Absolute truth" is either absurdly simple or extremely complex, and not a lot in between. There are some truths that are so reliable that even should they be "disproved", they're only disproved by "a little bit". For instance, Einstein didn't revoke Newton's Laws of Motion, he just tweaked them a little bit so that they worked with electromagnetic theory.

Many truths are relative and conditional and apply only in certain circumstances. For instance, thermodynamics is extremely accurate and reliable, but only because it's essentially doing statistics with many absurdly huge numbers of particles: when you limit a system to even just a thousand particles, thermodynamics doesn't work the same and you need to use statistical physics instead. The reverse is true, though: while statistical physics is useful at very small scales, and is mathematically consistent with thermodynamics, it becomes impractical to use on the scales where thermodynamics applies.

Now notice what is going on here: there is a physical reality that is being described, and it's kind of hard to say that that physical reality isn't "true" isn't "real" or what have you. It is what it is. The concept of "truth" comes into play when describing that reality. So the problem with "truth" isn't whether that which is being described is true, so much as whether the description is true.

Some things are easy to describe, and it is easy for those things to be "true" in an "absolute" sense. If you have a two apples, and you eat one, you will only have one apple left. That's easy to describe and it will always be absolutely true.

Other things are extremely difficult to describe: the human mind, how viruses work, the mechanics of the climate, the economy, and complex systems in general. It isn't unreasonable to conclude that it is impossible to write an absolutely true description of such things merely on the basis that it would take nigh-infinitely many words. Therefore we are stuck using incomplete descriptions in order to judge the truth of things. This is where "relative truth" comes into play: it's possible to have somewhat conflicting but equally valid incomplete descriptions of something.

At this point Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem is relevant. It says something that isn't too different from what I've said above, except that it proves it. Essentially, it says that for any sufficiently complex system, if it is consistent, it cannot be complete, and if it is complete it cannot be proven to be consistent. Another way of saying this is that there must exist statements within that system that CANNOT BE PROVED.

So "truth", per se, isn't entirely relevant: the level of knowledge and understanding that is possible is what matters. With any sufficiently complex system, you're not thinking in terms of truth or falsehood, but in terms of accuracy, in terms of how close does a description correspond to reality. Thus, technically speaking, there is no such thing as "absolute truth", but that does not imply that all truth is somehow "relative" or "subjective" or whatever. Far from it. Reality still exists. Things can be objectively measured and compared. What people say can be compared to reality, and others can judge how much bullshit is involved vs how much truth is involved by comparing words to reality.

I am in no way qualified to either confirm or dispute the above. It seems that if we had perfect knowledge and understanding of those things that we could explain them in absolute truth with no room for anything else.But I thought it would come down to specifics of what I was really thinking about and that's probably more what I mentioned before such as where did life begin and the meaning of life. Things like morality and what's our purpose for being here. You are no doubt very knowledgeable . I appreciate your comments.
 

Poki

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Lets have logical fun.

An apple equals an apple...same definition
But if i were to hold 2 apples and ask "is this an apple" the answer 2 both is yes.

But if i were to ask if the apples are the same the answer is no.

A = A

A1 = A

A2 = A

But A1 is not = A2

Reductionism doesnt create truths.

Is it possible for us to not reduce?
 

uumlau

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Lets have logical fun.

An apple equals an apple...same definition
But if i were to hold 2 apples and ask "is this an apple" the answer 2 both is yes.

But if i were to ask if the apples are the same the answer is no.

A = A

A1 = A

A2 = A

But A1 is not = A2

Reductionism doesnt create truths.

Is it possible for us to not reduce?

Yes. It is trivial to formalize statements so that there is no contradiction. Computer code handles the case you outline trivially.

public class Apple
{
... (define apple properties and methods) ...
}

var apple1 = new Apple();
var apple2 = new Apple();

Both apple1 and apple2 are Apples, i.e., the statements,

apple1 is Apple
apple2 is Apple

are both true.

But the statement

apple1 == apple2

is false, because each is a different instance of the Apple class.
 

Mole

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There is truth with a small t, and Truth with a capital T.

Truth with a capital T is revealed Truth, it is Truth arrived at, not by evidence and reason, but by Faith. Or another way of putting it is: arrived at by fourth level trance, of a trance, within a trance, within a trance, within a trance, where the fourth level trance is genuinely perceived as absolute reality.
 

Poki

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Yes. It is trivial to formalize statements so that there is no contradiction. Computer code handles the case you outline trivially.

public class Apple
{
... (define apple properties and methods) ...
}

var apple1 = new Apple();
var apple2 = new Apple();

Both apple1 and apple2 are Apples, i.e., the statements,

apple1 is Apple
apple2 is Apple

are both true.

But the statement

apple1 == apple2

is false, because each is a different instance of the Apple class.

Unless you overide the equals and hashcode statement. Then it becomes equal while its not ;) take away...dont override equals and hash unless you know what your doing. It can really screw things up
 

bedeviled1

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There is truth with a small t, and Truth with a capital T.

Truth with a capital T is revealed Truth, it is Truth arrived at, not by evidence and reason, but by Faith. Or another way of putting it is: arrived at by fourth level trance, of a trance, within a trance, within a trance, within a trance, where the fourth level trance is genuinely perceived as absolute reality.

Have you achieved this?
 

IndigoViolet11

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That would be irrelevant. But I won't exclude anything for thought...yet...until I find the truth
Mainly ignoring the rest of others post. Last night in mid of it I fell asleep.

It reminded me of a religious person who would just say, if one does not stop and just accept the truth, then he is forever lost. God saved the people from their lost of direction via Jesus's sacrifising himself in the cross. Whether or not if this is sufgicient truth is a matter that outside people might debate, but those who accept this as an answer will eventually settle, or take it for granted later on, that others have to believe in this as an absolute truth too. But that's sort of a given, because an unsettled mind can do anything else... If somebody do settle, on anything, then the wandering would dissapear.

So either it is a desire that you can get from religion, or to look further than what God gave, um, just, something tangeable. Maybe we are at first did desire to have the truth. How far you will go, though? It is usually best for people to have set believes and just settle. It is either to arrive and stay, or just set up the search like no tomorrow.

What do you think?
 

totent

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Plato (Socrates) said I am wise because I know I know nothing. He spoke about how when people know X, they imply that X=Y therefore they know everything. Much like a car mechanic saying something like "oh fixing the economy is like fixing a fuel line". An apparent inconsistency arises when the same Socrates claims that a true philosopher strives to know the truth and he is the only one truly capable of reaching the truth, or "stepping out of the cave".
During his trial, Socrates said that he was the wisest man alive because unlike everyone else, he knew that he knew nothing. That trial ended in his own death. So here we have a person who calls himself a philosopher, claims that only philosophers can know the truth, and yet dies saying that he is wise because he knows nothing.
It's quite straightforward what he is suggesting, the only truth is that you will never know the truth. Only a 'true philosopher' will continue to search for the truth despite knowing that he will not find it.
Descartes said I think therefore I am. The consciousness of knowing myself as who I am, in the world I believe to be existing within, is what brings 'I' into existence. You cannot be certain of that consciousness; it's duration, reliability, authenticity and reliability.
Baudrillard's ideas on what he calls the hyperreal may be of interest for some people. The matrix trilogy is deeply embedded with both baudrillard and Plato's philosophy among many others.
 

bedeviled1

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Mainly ignoring the rest of others post. Last night in mid of it I fell asleep.

It reminded me of a religious person who would just say, if one does not stop and just accept the truth, then he is forever lost. God saved the people from their lost of direction via Jesus's sacrifising himself in the cross. Whether or not if this is sufgicient truth is a matter that outside people might debate, but those who accept this as an answer will eventually settle, or take it for granted later on, that others have to believe in this as an absolute truth too. But that's sort of a given, because an unsettled mind can do anything else... If somebody do settle, on anything, then the wandering would dissapear.

So either it is a desire that you can get from religion, or to look further than what God gave, um, just, something tangeable. Maybe we are at first did desire to have the truth. How far you will go, though? It is usually best for people to have set believes and just settle. It is either to arrive and stay, or just set up the search like no tomorrow.

What do you think?

I think I see what you mean. There was a time that I was settled as a Christian but trama hit and I went away from it mostly. Since then I've questioned all I believed. You can't make yourself believe or not believe. It just happens. It could be a problem with ME. I see from every angle and not settled on anything. I think I pretty much followed SOMEBODY all my life I guess. Maybe I never developed the skills or individualism to be independent. Who knows.
 
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