Do you believe in absolute truth?

[bedeviled1]

Plato (Socrates) said I am wise because I know I know nothing. He spoke about how when people know X, they imply that X=Y therefore they know everything. Much like a car mechanic saying something like "oh fixing the economy is like fixing a fuel line". An apparent inconsistency arises when the same Socrates claims that a true philosopher strives to know the truth and he is the only one truly capable of reaching the truth, or "stepping out of the cave".
During his trial, Socrates said that he was the wisest man alive because unlike everyone else, he knew that he knew nothing. That trial ended in his own death. So here we have a person who calls himself a philosopher, claims that only philosophers can know the truth, and yet dies saying that he is wise because he knows nothing.
It's quite straightforward what he is suggesting, the only truth is that you will never know the truth. Only a 'true philosopher' will continue to search for the truth despite knowing that he will not find it.
Descartes said I think therefore I am. The consciousness of knowing myself as who I am, in the world I believe to be existing within, is what brings 'I' into existence. You cannot be certain of that consciousness; it's duration, reliability, authenticity and reliability.
Baudrillard's ideas on what he calls the hyperreal may be of interest for some people. The matrix trilogy is deeply embedded with both baudrillard and Plato's philosophy among many others.

So according to Socrates I'm doing good because Im wandering around searching for something but if I realize I will never find it I will be there. That seems pretty depressing to me.

 

[Lark]

Lets have logical fun.

An apple equals an apple...same definition
But if i were to hold 2 apples and ask "is this an apple" the answer 2 both is yes.

But if i were to ask if the apples are the same the answer is no.

A = A

A1 = A

A2 = A

But A1 is not = A2

Reductionism doesnt create truths.

Is it possible for us to not reduce?

Reductionism has a role to play, in creating testable hypothesis and falsifiable data, and in a less complex way its more like the sort of reasoning, practical reasoning, which people apply themselves most of the time on a day to day basis.

It works and as such it has utility and utility is generally considered a good thing, although its not infallible, its often human all too human but what isnt?

 

[Poki]

Reductionism has a role to play, in creating testable hypothesis and falsifiable data, and in a less complex way its more like the sort of reasoning, practical reasoning, which people apply themselves most of the time on a day to day basis.

It works and as such it has utility and utility is generally considered a good thing, although its not infallible, its often human all too human but what isnt?

I dont believe we have the capacity to not engage in reductionism. The more we reduce the less processing we must do and the easier it is to find true, but the further we are from truth.

The issue arises when one cannot understand how reductionism works and use it as truth.

 

[geedoenfj]

I do, although truth is not always showing itself, and although they pass through so many filters that you can only see small part of it, but if you keep searching for evidences some day you'll find it, or at least part of it

 

[IndigoViolet11]

I think I see what you mean. There was a time that I was settled as a Christian but trama hit and I went away from it mostly. Since then I've questioned all I believed. You can't make yourself believe or not believe. It just happens. It could be a problem with ME. I see from every angle and not settled on anything. I think I pretty much followed SOMEBODY all my life I guess. Maybe I never developed the skills or individualism to be independent. Who knows.

By looking at other people's post, I see different tools being emerged from just trying to both analysis and making sense of what and where we are living, doing, and all those routines that we are all doing..

Suddenly someday, someone came up and asking the rest of us, why do we have to hunt, kill, fish, plant to eat, and why are we even there and what do we need to do. A task maybe? But from whom? A higher power? Or from (the concept of) God?

Question everything, the banner says. It was a banner thingy in the place where I used to study. I am sure there is an underlying reason there, and the truth sits right in the middle of it.

 

[IndigoViolet11]

Yes. It is trivial to formalize statements so that there is no contradiction. Computer code handles the case you outline trivially.

public class Apple
{
... (define apple properties and methods) ...
}

var apple1 = new Apple();
var apple2 = new Apple();

Both apple1 and apple2 are Apples, i.e., the statements,

apple1 is Apple
apple2 is Apple

are both true.

But the statement

apple1 == apple2

is false, because each is a different instance of the Apple class.

Just wondering, how many apples need to be copied to define an apple?

 

[bedeviled1]

By looking at other people's post, I see different tools being emerged from just trying to both analysis and making sense of what and where we are living, doing, and all those routines that we are all doing..

Suddenly someday, someone came up and asking the rest of us, why do we have to hunt, kill, fish, plant to eat, and why are we even there and what do we need to do. A task maybe? But from whom? A higher power? Or from (the concept of) God?

Question everything, the banner says. It was a banner thingy in the place where I used to study. I am sure there is an underlying reason there, and the truth sits right in the middle of it.

I think I follow you

 

[Eluded_One]

From a metacognitive perspective: The only thing I'm absolutely sure is how absolutely unsure I am.

 

[bedeviled1]

While thinking on the different posts it occurred to me that while searching for truth it would be possible to "throw out the baby with the bath water" so to speak. I noticed a thread entitled something like, why do we have holidays? That inspired a question. Why do we have a lot of things? They were they represented something important to someone or a lot of people.maybe we think it's irrelevant to us. Perhaps, perhaps not.maybe its like indigoviolet11 said, the truth sits right in the middle of it. Maybe it's like the old saying "if it was a snake it would have bit you" maybe it's something new...maybe it's something old.maybe it's past already, maybe it's not here yet...

 

[Galena]

I do believe in it, but that truths are much fewer and more difficult to perceive than we may realize. To grasp even one in a lifetime can't be done in the mind alone, it takes action and connection to others and a lot of bravery. Not everyone does, maybe not even most of everyone. I don't expect to, nobody can expect it, but my belief is that it's worth a try.

 

[Mole]

The Absolute and Absolution

The search for absolute truth is the search for absolution.

We are pathetic children seeking the absolution of an abusive parent.

For instance, the Roman Catholic Church provides absolution in Confession, and the Roman Catholic Church is a child abusing symbolic parent.

 

[bedeviled1]

The search for absolute truth is the search for absolution.

We are pathetic children seeking the absolution of an abusive parent.

For instance, the Roman Catholic Church provides absolution in Confession, and the Roman Catholic Church is a child abusing symbolic parent.

Really? Do you think that's the driving force behind the desire to find the truth? What about perfectionism?

 

[totent]

So according to Socrates I'm doing good because Im wandering around searching for something but if I realize I will never find it I will be there. That seems pretty depressing to me.

Not surprising haha. He did say that most people will not like this idea.

 

[uumlau]

So according to Socrates I'm doing good because Im wandering around searching for something but if I realize I will never find it I will be there. That seems pretty depressing to me.

Not surprising haha. He did say that most people will not like this idea.

It's actually kind of parallel to the Tao Te Ching: everything you "know" is just imposing your own mental constructs on top of reality.

3

If you overesteem great men,
people become powerless.
If you overvalue possessions,
people begin to steal.

The Master leads
by emptying people's minds
and filling their cores,
by weakening their ambition
and toughening their resolve.
He helps people lose everything
they know, everything they desire,
and creates confusion
in those who think that they know.

Practice not-doing,
and everything will fall into place.


20

Stop thinking, and end your problems.
What difference between yes and no?
What difference between success and failure?
Must you value what others value,
avoid what others avoid?
How ridiculous!

Other people are excited,
as though they were at a parade.
I alone don't care,
I alone am expressionless,
like an infant before it can smile.

Other people have what they need;
I alone possess nothing.
I alone drift about,
like someone without a home.
I am like an idiot, my mind is so empty.

Other people are bright;
I alone am dark.
Other people are sharper;
I alone am dull.
Other people have a purpose;
I alone don't know.
I drift like a wave on the ocean,
I blow as aimless as the wind.

I am different from ordinary people.
I drink from the Great Mother's breasts.



24

He who stands on tiptoe
doesn't stand form.
He who rushes ahead
doesn't go far.
He who tries to shine
dims his own light.
He who defines himself
can't know who he really is.
He who has power over others
can't empower himself.
He who clings to his work
will create nothing that endures.

If you want to accord with the Tao,
just do your job, then let go.


32

The Tao can't be perceived.
Smaller than an electron,
it contains uncountable galaxies.

If powerful men and women
could remain centered in the Tao,
all things would be in harmony.
The world would become a paradise.
All people would be at peace,
and the law would be written in their hearts.

When you have names and forms,
know that they are provisional.
When you have institutions,
know where their functions should end.
Knowing when to stop,
you can avoid any danger.

All things end in the Tao
as rivers flow into the sea.


47

Without opening your door,
you can open your heart to the world.
Without looking out your window,
you can see the essence of the Tao.

The more you know,
the less you understand.

The Master arrives without leaving,
sees the light without looking,
achieves without doing a thing.


56

Those who know don't talk.
Those who talk don't know.

Close your mouth,
block off your senses,
blunt your sharpness,
untie your knots,
soften your glare,
settle your dust.
This is the primal identity.

Be like the Tao.
It can't be approached or withdrawn from,
benefited or harmed,
honored or brought into disgrace.
It gives itself up continually.
That is why it endures.


65

The ancient Masters
didn't try to educate the people,
but kindly taught them to not-know.

When they think that they know the answers,
people are difficult to guide.
When they know that they don't know,
people can find their own way.

If you want to learn how to govern,
avoid being clever or rich.
The simplest pattern is the clearest.
Content with an ordinary life,
you can show all people the way
back to their own true nature.


71

Not-knowing is true knowledge.
Presuming to know is a disease.
First realize that you are sick;
then you can move toward health.

The Master is her own physician.
She has healed herself of all knowing.
Thus she is truly whole.



​

 

[Mole]

Really? Do you think that's the driving force behind the desire to find the truth? What about perfectionism?

This is a site devoted to psychology. We are not so much interested in the literal minded pursuit of truth, but we are more interested in the hidden movements of the psyche.

I am always surprised at the aggression of the literal minded, it's as though they want to push their literalism down our throats. No, it is far more appropriate here to explore the psyche through metaphor, desire, and the defences of the psyche.

Of course the literal minded are deeply threatened by any public exploration of the psyche, and this explains their aggression.

 

[totent]

It's actually kind of parallel to the Tao Te Ching: everything you "know" is just imposing your own mental constructs on top of reality.

3

If you overesteem great men,
people become powerless.
If you overvalue possessions,
people begin to steal.

The Master leads
by emptying people's minds
and filling their cores,
by weakening their ambition
and toughening their resolve.
He helps people lose everything
they know, everything they desire,
and creates confusion
in those who think that they know.

Practice not-doing,
and everything will fall into place.


20

Stop thinking, and end your problems.
What difference between yes and no?
What difference between success and failure?
Must you value what others value,
avoid what others avoid?
How ridiculous!

Other people are excited,
as though they were at a parade.
I alone don't care,
I alone am expressionless,
like an infant before it can smile.

Other people have what they need;
I alone possess nothing.
I alone drift about,
like someone without a home.
I am like an idiot, my mind is so empty.

Other people are bright;
I alone am dark.
Other people are sharper;
I alone am dull.
Other people have a purpose;
I alone don't know.
I drift like a wave on the ocean,
I blow as aimless as the wind.

I am different from ordinary people.
I drink from the Great Mother's breasts.



24

He who stands on tiptoe
doesn't stand form.
He who rushes ahead
doesn't go far.
He who tries to shine
dims his own light.
He who defines himself
can't know who he really is.
He who has power over others
can't empower himself.
He who clings to his work
will create nothing that endures.

If you want to accord with the Tao,
just do your job, then let go.


32

The Tao can't be perceived.
Smaller than an electron,
it contains uncountable galaxies.

If powerful men and women
could remain centered in the Tao,
all things would be in harmony.
The world would become a paradise.
All people would be at peace,
and the law would be written in their hearts.

When you have names and forms,
know that they are provisional.
When you have institutions,
know where their functions should end.
Knowing when to stop,
you can avoid any danger.

All things end in the Tao
as rivers flow into the sea.


47

Without opening your door,
you can open your heart to the world.
Without looking out your window,
you can see the essence of the Tao.

The more you know,
the less you understand.

The Master arrives without leaving,
sees the light without looking,
achieves without doing a thing.


56

Those who know don't talk.
Those who talk don't know.

Close your mouth,
block off your senses,
blunt your sharpness,
untie your knots,
soften your glare,
settle your dust.
This is the primal identity.

Be like the Tao.
It can't be approached or withdrawn from,
benefited or harmed,
honored or brought into disgrace.
It gives itself up continually.
That is why it endures.


65

The ancient Masters
didn't try to educate the people,
but kindly taught them to not-know.

When they think that they know the answers,
people are difficult to guide.
When they know that they don't know,
people can find their own way.

If you want to learn how to govern,
avoid being clever or rich.
The simplest pattern is the clearest.
Content with an ordinary life,
you can show all people the way
back to their own true nature.


71

Not-knowing is true knowledge.
Presuming to know is a disease.
First realize that you are sick;
then you can move toward health.

The Master is her own physician.
She has healed herself of all knowing.
Thus she is truly whole.



​

But that assumes a given 'reality'. Cross reading of Plato's different texts shows that his philosophy lacks such a reality.

 

[uumlau]

But that assumes a given 'reality'. Cross reading of Plato's different texts shows that his philosophy lacks such a reality.

Given that Plato had very particular ideas about reality ("forms" vs "physical", etc.), it would seem that he didn't adhere to what Socrates said.

 

[RedAmazoneFriendZone]

I prefer to believe in signs, symbolism and subjective truths than dogmatism, doctrines and dictatures.

Absolute truths are very often not a way to know yourself and YOUR truths. What ares viewed as truths are very often préjugés or human creations,

just to reassure the weak egos in need of repères. Again a mental drug.


To me what is important is not the shape or frame but what truths come out from that shape and those colours, actions, timetables, decisions, reasons, communications and so on.

Read Paolo Coelho to understand what truth is on the humble ESFP point of view- I was told to be

 

[totent]

Given that Plato had very particular ideas about reality ("forms" vs "physical", etc.), it would seem that he didn't adhere to what Socrates said.

Socrates has no written work. When I said what I said about Socrates, it was Socrates as portrayed by Plato in his written works. Plato conveyed his ideas on forms and the philosopher king in the republic. In the apology, he shows Socrates going to his death saying I am the wisest because I know that I know nothing. That's why I said that if you look at all of Plato's work together, he evidently suggests that the only truth is that there is no truth

 

[Poki]

Socrates has no written work. When I said what I said about Socrates, it was Socrates as portrayed by Plato in his written works. Plato conveyed his ideas on forms and the philosopher king in the republic. In the apology, he shows Socrates going to his death saying I am the wisest because I know that I know nothing. That's why I said that if you look at all of Plato's work together, he evidently suggests that the only truth is that there is no truth

I can argue that the only truth is that the truth changes. Which is more accurate, but at what point does "the only truth" change since its the truth.

Plato suggestion implodes on itself.