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  1. #891
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    well, the potential is that it could be hurting both of you inside.

    pull back from the conversation and just look at yourself: you're struggling to attend to him; wishing one or both of you elsewhere; upholding the idea that you should have to listen to him to be a good person. but why should that be true? you could end up both really hating conversation but talking anyway to preserve... well, to preserve what? a society based on connections you don't really like anyway? you're stressing yourself out by trying to pay attention to him when you really don't want to, and wasting your own time because, despite trying, you're not genuinely interested in what he has to say.

    and then look at him. he's blabbering away, thinking he has a genuine conversation partner - or he kind of suspects that you're being a bit distant/cold and is silently wondering what he did wrong, so he's talking more to try to get you really engaged. either way, he's being somewhat deceived - he's under the impression that you want to talk to him, not that you are forcing yourself to. so then his time is being wasted, too. he'd probably rather have a conversation with someone who actually wants to listen.
    Well said. (What we are calling) Fe is so fucking illogical; an ultimately worthless tyranny of stupid rules. Pretense of connection is worse than no connection at all.
    And if it's about doing "what you would want done to you" - that's meaninglessly egocentric if it's not what the other person wants done to them. I, for example, would much rather someone told me to STFU than smiled and nodded whilst secretly wishing I would. Most people don't want to bore others. Those that do, (or don't care), don't deserve to be indulged.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred
    ... a golden rule effort ...
    it's even the more noble to do the right thing if it kills you, isn't it?
    1. There is no "right" thing in this scenario. Either you spare his feelings or your own. Neither has implicit precedence.
    2. It may be more "noble", but who wants to be noble and dead?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #892
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    You're gonna be dead anyway...

  3. #893
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    Fe vs. Fi


  4. #894
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think when healthy Fe users run away, what they are attempting to do is keep from expressing unprocessed ideas that may be incorrect or may hurt the other person. They do not want to be washed over with a wave of emotion that just has to be expressed. They would like time to examine it, see if it is valid and figure out how to present that in a way that will be most readily appreciated and understood.

    I think perhaps it would help NFPs if we stated straight out that we were coming back and that leaving for a little bit or distancing ourselves for a bit is not a rejection, but rather has to do with our own way of processing.
    very much so

    i understand the NFJ need for space so much better after reading forum comments (especially yours fidelia). the way it comes off to me (without the benefit of explanations) used to be essentially that the NFJ doesn't want me around when i disagree with them. that's part of why it comes off as somewhat selfish, i think. because it's not apparent that it's a need for time for consideration and thought unless that's voiced - otherwise it looks like the person just wants to get away from you, and that they've given up on finding a mutual solution.

    and on our end, obviously it would be helpful to let you have some time and space.

    [...] In all of the aforementioned cases, the behaviour is often a symptom of a deeper problem. Of course that problem must be addressed. However, giving in to the easiest behaviour at the time is not being true to yourself and it keeps you from addressing the root cause, because you are merely coping in the short term. In the example of the child, you are right that Fe users need to be more explicit earlier on rather than just getting angry once they are at the end of their string. If you want the child to really understand what is wrong with their behaviour though, it shouldn't be done out of raw emotion when you are feeling angry either. You bring it up because that is what is in the child's best interests and it should be firm but dispassionate so that they do not confuse it with being a personal issue of you rejecting them or you losing your temper at them. With sleeping in, people need to look at their routines - how are they preparing for the next morning? Is there stress in their lives that they can impact through a change of circumstances, exercise, more sleep, talking etc? Again, I agree with you that the root cause should not go unnoticed. Either extreme - soley gritting your teeth and bearing it, or doing what you are most inclined to do are not healthy.
    yeah, i agree. i think this is one of those points where sophisticated Fe and sophisticated Fi end up being exactly the same - harmony with others should lead to inner harmony and harmony with oneself should lead to harmony with others. a Fi reason for disciplining a child is because they hurt you; a Fe because if you don't address their behavior they will hurt others in the future. it's actually the same reason at heart - hurting people is essentially bad. and both internal reasons and external reasons for a certain problem need to be analyzed - ideally internal analysis will lead to external analysis and vice versa. maybe we need to start at one end, but we can end up going through both required processes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    What fidelia said. I've definitely had damage caused to relationships with Fi-ers IRL because someone felt the need to unload all this stuff on me, directed at me, and I felt kind of blindsided and dumped on. In the moment, it's almost impossible for me to think about what's causing the other person's pain. I know what's causing the other person's pain, and I respect it, but I can't deal with someone yelling or having a meltdown to convey it to me. Something within me just withdraws. Now if it's something I'm witnessing with another two friends, I'm able to say to one, "Well, she's just reacting because of x. She shouldn't have yelled at you, but I think she's just frustrated..." etc. If it's directed at me, it's very, very hard for me to deal with. Like fidelia said, for you, it's over in minutes. For us, it's something that stays with us, and sometimes never really goes away, even after we've forgiven you. (And I really, really hate it when people say hurtful or exaggerated things to provoke a reaction in me.) We have to have a VERY special relationship for me to want to resolve conflicts like this on a regular basis. Otherwise, I might decide it's not worth the drama and pain. It wouldn't be an outright decision so much as a feeling of wanting to distance myself or be more casual friends or something.
    this is interesting to hear. i don't want to say i'm not impacted by others being in an intensely negative emotional state, because i totally am, but i guess i don't take what an angry person says to heart as much - or at least, i take what they mean to heart, but not their exact words. emotional states actually make it easier to read people, in some ways. makes it easier to know how to help them. i've never had the same experience of emotion being unnecessary/overpowering noise - it's just like a fire alarm. kind of annoying, sure, but just means that something needs to be attended to.

    question though, why does exactly what the other person says stay with you so long? this is something i don't really understand. ime, Js and TPs tend to focus SO much on specific words or phrases and not the way in which they're said, and vice versa for Fi dom/aux, and this causes a lot of misunderstanding between us. when i'm discussing a Fi issue, it's very, very hard for me to get the words perfectly right on the first try, but the emotion is always correct. so while i'm stumbling through the muddy imperfection of words (i think this translation difficulty has to do with the subjectiveness/holisticness uumlau mentioned), the other person is taking every word i say as if it's set in stone. it's very frustrating. and then if i ask them to let me work through what i have to say first, they'll complain that it's confusing that they're not supposed to take me seriously, etc... words are fluid, context-dependent, imperfect. i think with a Fi dom/aux you're just going to have to filter out exact words to a certain extent and listen to the feeling tones more. just like Fi dom/aux have to "turn down" the noise level of emotion that we pick up on and listen to your words more. let the feeling tones be what stays with you, instead of the exact words, because they're the crux of what we're trying to say.

  5. #895
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Just catching up on this thread, so forgive me for responding to some older stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    and sometimes it's something rather mean - though almost never without truth - and when it is something inflammatory, it's usually a masked desperate cry - (wow this is embarrassing to admit but) when i've said inflammatory things in the past it's sometimes because i've see the other person withdrawing and i'm angry but trying to incite them back into conversing with me, because i feel like at least if we're in contact, we can solve things together. but if they leave then there's no hope for us fixing things between us. and admittedly that's kind of terrifying from my POV (you know the NFJ "doorslam"? being on the receiving end of one of those from a significant other is like the most anxiety-ridden state i have ever been in.), but i also genuinely want both of us to get back in harmony - once i've said my peace. (and i hope they will say theirs too.)

    and when i hear someone else lash out like that, i don't really think about how i need to protect myself as much as i try to fight fire with fire and figure out what's going wrong with them to make them speak/act that way. for as much as we talk about many Fi dom/auxs being selfish i feel like some Fe dom/auxs are kind of selfish in the way that they tend to run away from people when they themselves are hurt, even when the other person is obviously in a great deal of pain too. :/
    I don't think I see a particular pattern in my own life of inciting or needling others to keep the contact going. Maybe it's because I'm introverted and/or a withdrawing enneagram type, but I typically want to go "offline" for processing myself.

    Another motivation for withdrawing when I'm upset is that I don't want to lash out. The same things that are good for understanding another's emotional state make it easy to find emotional weaknesses and push buttons. I'd far rather avoid the damage done by a few words said in anger. I had to learn to inform my partner (for example) that I needed to take a break from talking/arguing rather than just disappearing for a bit, though. (Since withdrawing to process can be read as a door slam, instead of just a pause in the ongoing dialog.)

    I also tend to withdraw if I'm in a bad mood so as not to inflict it on others. As I've gotten older, it's also become easier to stay on an even keel, and to work through things when I do get upset. I don't know if that's just general mellowing with age or something else.

    So, I don't find the other withdrawing to be particularly scary. What I do fear is building up bad Fe-cred with an Fe-er because I was unaware, ignorant of the rules or just too inconsistent. Those kind of blind spots are very humbling for me to encounter.

  6. #896
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    skylights - I think because we put a lot of thought into the way we say things and pay a lot of attention to qualifiers and choice of words and whether or not we're invited to say things etc, we assume that when other people say certain things, they really truly mean it.

    The only way we would get really blunt and even kind of mean is if the other person is really unaware and really relentless in pursuing their point or if there is a chronic and high level of frustration and it's a last ditch attempt to save the relationship by putting it all out there. I don't consciously save up another person's sins to unload on them, but sometimes if I have been very forebearing and the other person is not acknowledging that or respecting it, I will reach a breaking point where I tell them. It takes an awful lot for me to get to that point.

    When it happens the other way around, I assume people are doing that for the same reason. When I find out after that they didn't even really mean those things or are feeling happy now, it hard not to feel pretty frustrated at them for just taking out their emotions on me without any regard for the impact those words have had. I wonder what other kinds of signals I am consistantly missing, what kind of a friend I am, or else what kind of chooser of friend I am.

    It is devastating if you think things between you are mostly okay and then without warning get a torrent of words unleashed on you. For me anyway, I also feel an extreme amount of embarrassment and shame, as I pride myself on trying very hard to look at things from the other person's point of view and not knowingly bothering or hurting them. It makes me feel as if I have been completely unaware of the dynamics between us, or it shovels on loads of extra stuff to sort through before I can get on with giving the person what it is that they need at the time, and its hard for there not to be lingering wariness or annoyance (if it was a false alarm) even if I have forgiven them. I wonder what else there is that may come my way when I least expect it (I hate emotional surprises), or if I should tolerate being someone's emotional punching bag if they didn't really mean what they said. I do assume that anything said either in a joking manner or in the heat of emotion is the unedited version of what they truly believe about me (I don't say everything I think, particularly if it is not productive or I'm not sure it's valid or if I don't want to hurt someone I love and don't think it is best dealt with in that way) and it hurts greatly to know that I'm not safe with someone that I previously thought I was.

    It's also difficult because often there is no solution in sight when a person just unloads emotion on me. I wish that they would sort through and be able to tell me what they need from me and I would do my best to accommodate and help them. Failing that, if they could have the forethought to explain that they need to emote to me to sort through it all (much like I use venting to figure out what I really think) and that some of it is just emotional noise that will eventually take the form of something more. I think that would help me to be patient and take it less personally.

  7. #897
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Oh yeah - I was thinking about the disagreeing thing too, skylights. Another reason I sometimes withdraw is because I find it very uncomfortable and painful to be at odds in any way with someone I'm close to. One of the things I do when I withdraw is recalibrate and try to find where our points of similarity still are. I think Fi/Te tends to start more with points of difference and move towards similarity, so not being on the same page is not as uncomfortable of a feeling. I feel shaky and unsure if I don't know where our common ground is. I don't mind exploring differences, but I need to feel safe doing so by establishing the areas of commonality first. When someone else wants to jump straight to the areas of where we disagree, I get twitchy.

    I suppose this is how Fi feels when Fe-ers want to jump in with the points we disagree with first, before everyone expressing their feelings fully and feeling understood. To us it seems more efficient to explore the stuff that's different rather than what's same. Ti feels that same insecurity with Te jumping into the differences first.

  8. #898
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    ^



    very much so

    i understand the NFJ need for space so much better after reading forum comments (especially yours fidelia). the way it comes off to me (without the benefit of explanations) used to be essentially that the NFJ doesn't want me around when i disagree with them. that's part of why it comes off as somewhat selfish, i think. because it's not apparent that it's a need for time for consideration and thought unless that's voiced - otherwise it looks like the person just wants to get away from you, and that they've given up on finding a mutual solution.

    and on our end, obviously it would be helpful to let you have some time and space.



    yeah, i agree. i think this is one of those points where sophisticated Fe and sophisticated Fi end up being exactly the same - harmony with others should lead to inner harmony and harmony with oneself should lead to harmony with others. a Fi reason for disciplining a child is because they hurt you; a Fe because if you don't address their behavior they will hurt others in the future. it's actually the same reason at heart - hurting people is essentially bad. and both internal reasons and external reasons for a certain problem need to be analyzed - ideally internal analysis will lead to external analysis and vice versa. maybe we need to start at one end, but we can end up going through both required processes.



    this is interesting to hear. i don't want to say i'm not impacted by others being in an intensely negative emotional state, because i totally am, but i guess i don't take what an angry person says to heart as much - or at least, i take what they mean to heart, but not their exact words. emotional states actually make it easier to read people, in some ways. makes it easier to know how to help them. i've never had the same experience of emotion being unnecessary/overpowering noise - it's just like a fire alarm. kind of annoying, sure, but just means that something needs to be attended to.

    question though, why does exactly what the other person says stay with you so long? this is something i don't really understand. ime, Js and TPs tend to focus SO much on specific words or phrases and not the way in which they're said, and vice versa for Fi dom/aux, and this causes a lot of misunderstanding between us. when i'm discussing a Fi issue, it's very, very hard for me to get the words perfectly right on the first try, but the emotion is always correct. so while i'm stumbling through the muddy imperfection of words (i think this translation difficulty has to do with the subjectiveness/holisticness uumlau mentioned), the other person is taking every word i say as if it's set in stone. it's very frustrating. and then if i ask them to let me work through what i have to say first, they'll complain that it's confusing that they're not supposed to take me seriously, etc... words are fluid, context-dependent, imperfect. i think with a Fi dom/aux you're just going to have to filter out exact words to a certain extent and listen to the feeling tones more. just like Fi dom/aux have to "turn down" the noise level of emotion that we pick up on and listen to your words more. let the feeling tones be what stays with you, instead of the exact words, because they're the crux of what we're trying to say.


    I know that with a certain friend I depend on him filtering out the exact words I'm saying and instead listen to the emotion underneath the words. I don't often say (or I feel that I don't because I take great care with the words I use or I'll just stay silent until I've thought things through) exactly what I mean even if I make an effort to explain myself. I agree that words can't convey exact meaning because it's difficult to do that. Perhaps I rely on intuition from others to grasp the meaning...or trust that I will stumble along and find the words to say what I mean. I often feel like I need the other person to excuse the wrong word said here or there and think of the whole message or our entire relationship. That being said, I choose carefully the words I say and often expect that the other person will do the same. if I hear certain things being said, it's hard for me to forget them. Positive or negative. If either, and the person, I feel, is being sincere, then I will take the words to heart. If I'm in highly charged emotional situation and the other person decides to use restraint and perhaps says less than their emotions may demand (a tirade) or couches something in such a way as to not hurt me, I will always respond positiively to that. I have a difficult time forgetting something hurtful: if a person you care for can hurt you in this way once, my experience (at least with one invididual) is that they're likely to fall back into that hurtful and unproductive pattern again.

  9. #899
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    Question for NFs: When you get into a fight with someone, what do you do? What do you want from it? Do you want to talk things out? Understand each other? Leave it alone? Pretend it never happened?

    I just recently learned that my INFP has a completely different way of coping with arguments than I do.

    For me, I want us to talk about our problems and clear up any misunderstandings. The bad feelings from that argument keep coming back until I do. I want to know that either they have valid points and I should not condemn them or they are just a jerk and I shouldn't waste my sanity on them. I want to know that I've exhausted every possible tool to make amends. Just leaving an argument the way it is is unacceptable and exquisitely painful for me.

    I didn't know that other people don't have this desire. My INFP refused to talk about anything with me and said it was because she didn't want to destroy our friendship. I didn't know her POV, so I thought she was purposely being avoidant and mean. Only recently did I learn that INFPs tend to be satisfied without knowing why an argument happened because they consider talking about things to be a negative waste of energy.

    I admit I was frustrated because if she had just explained this to me, I wouldn't have been so mad at her, and we could have found some kind of common ground so we both could get closure. But I guess she thought I wanted the same type of closure as she did, too.

    So, what do YOU do when you're in an argument with a friend? What do you wish other types would know about your argument style?

  10. #900
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I identify with what you're saying RandomNess. I've found in real life and here that Fi has a different way of resolving problems, although I don't feel like I know enough to say what is happening internally for them. I just know that Fe kind of wants to get the roadblocks cleared out of the way before they can continue conversing, or else they distance themselves if the relationship really doesn't matter that much. It's like the distress caused by the misunderstanding, misinformation or interruption in the relationship makes it impossible to devote attention to anything else. I've heard Fi users say they feel like Fe lets little things linger rather than getting everything out in the open and done with. I believe we do that because when we bring something up we want to be sure that our concerns are valid and that we have thought out some possible solutions (usually which require the other person's help). Fi seems to be more of an on/off switch. It either comes out in the moment or else it gets dealt with internally. Doesn't seem to need the same external point of reference that we do to feel that an issue has been resolved. Fi users seem much better at talking it all out inside themselves. Fe users don't like not having that kind of information from the other person because it is what they use to calibrate their own thoughts and behaviours. In the absence of enough information, they can sometimes attribute wrong motives or make incorrect conclusions. I think Fi doesn't tend to understand that need because they don't process information in quite the same way. When they bring up something, it is not to either check if their own reaction is valid, nor is it to enlist the help of other people in changing the situation. (At least that's how it looks from the outside in).

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