User Tag List

First 2028293031324080 Last

Results 291 to 300 of 938

  1. #291
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    No, I don't have "The Truth". It would be insanely presumptuous to believe I do.

    I only have my truth. I try to live my truth within the multi-layered components of everyone else's truth, as individuals, within groups, within society. I don't have to invalidate your truth in the process to live mine. Quite the opposite, I honor your truth. And your right to see things from your perspective. Fe is true for you, and that's great.

    That doesn't make me a fool however. I see the world as it is, I see how it works, I am not blind to the many realities, some joyous and some full of despair. My eyes are wide open.

    Do you think, even for a second, that I don't know "realistically all of that can't be made manifest within a system of interacting parts and disparate moralities." But I can still aspire to a belief, an ideal, that it can.
    Right now, I am reading a lot of latent emotion in your comments. I felt like your first line was an unexpected slap in my face... like I went into an area I thought was safe, and I stepped into a wound. (Note my post above, where I specifically described the benefits of avoiding engagement based on the desire to not needlessly poke another person's wounds... one benefit of social morality.) Am I right in perceiving this, or am I reading into things?

    You say a lot of things here that you really seem to believe are true -- I read them as conscious values you hold inside of you, and you are even rising up to state them here with conviction, so I *know* you believe them -- but when I engage you in these sorts of discussions, I feel like the way you are engaging and the sort of stances taken are saying something else entirely... which is why I felt I needed to clarify what I did. What you just said here surprised me because it was running counter to my perception. Why am I perceiving you that way? I honestly don't know... but it's clear there is a dissonance between your perception and mine that we have to work through.

    Could you explain more about how someone can be honoring another person's "truth" if they actively disrupt it and engage in ways that deny it or downplay it? It sounds like you believe it to be true, so I want to understand, and I'm not getting it -- it doesn't seem to operate to me that way.


    Do you think, even for a second, that I don't know "realistically all of that can't be made manifest within a system of interacting parts and disparate moralities." But I can still aspire to a belief, an ideal, that it can.[/
    I was talking about Fi as a framework, not you specifically as a human being.

    It sounds like that comment bothered you.

    Help me understand what your point is. I guess I feel uncertain what you are trying to say to me. Get with the real world? Can I not even here say how I feel at the edges without someone feeling the need to pull me back to center, to get me back in line with the program?
    Ah. That's how you were taking it?

    I guess I could get offended too and respond with an, "After all you know *I'VE* been through in my life, you think I would demand someone else get back into the program and just merely follow status quo?!?" Geez. I mean, I've been bitten in the ass as much as you have or more because I haven't "toed the line" and I lost all of my social/family status because of chasing my personal truth.

    No, I was describing how I saw Fi and Fe working -- I was describing. I was not PRESCRIBING behavior for you or insisting you get back into a box and merely follow rules. (Hell, I had an ESFP kid break me in; that boy can never be kept in a box for an instant, I had to learn to let him run free.)

    But if we are going to describe Fe vs Fi -- yes, Fe is saying there are established protocols that mean something, based on human values and how people interact and function, and that Collective Morality can describe that, and Fi is saying there is Individual Truth that exists in each person and that needs to be expressed... and that both types of morality need to be synced up somehow.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #292
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    ^ placeholder for response, but there are no worries here k? I am not upset with you or what you said, at all.

    I feel some passion to what I write, but I am not angry or frustrated in the least.

    As for point 1, there is no "wound". More soon.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #293
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ESFP
    Enneagram
    9w8 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    7,004

    Default

    One thing that would help, could you point me to the specific questions you've asked of the FPs fidelia/and others? Since what I think I'll do in response is answer those questions, and then comment on the NFP's perspectives and tell how it differs from mine to give some clarity I suppose.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  4. #294
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,096

    Default

    I'm kind of going out on a limb here by being this honest. I'm still not sure if it's the right thing to do, but I think that is more respectful to you from what I am hearing all of you Fi users saying. I find it very difficult to say something like this because I know it does end up creating waves and I hate waves. It's not that I'm angry, but rather that I find myself wanting to react with a flippant attitude, which isn't conducive to understanding or real conversation. I've tried hard not to do that, but thought perhaps expressing my impressions may give a better picture of what's going on.

    PeaceBaby, I've seen you so far recommend to EW, myself and Jennifer that we try active listening, as if it's something that you came up with and have mastered and which we never have. I know you don't mean it that way, but it really feels condescending, like you have found the perfect way to communicate and you are going to teach us. I expect that similarly, we maybe make you feel frustrated in doing something that we are unconscious of. If that is the case, I'd like to better understand that.

    I feel irked when people say things like, "So what I am hearing you say is". It feels like I am visiting some kind of doctor, not having a conversation. I agree that active listening is important. It is important to non-judgementally gather information, ask questions to make sure we have accurately understood what was said, that we don't make assumptions and that we double check our perceptions before reacting. It just doesn't feel like that is what you are doing towards Jennifer. My perceptions may be wrong, but I notice that several Fe users are having similar reactions.

    When anyone has challenged your perceptions, you retreat right away to saying that it is either that they are not actively listening, that Fi is difficult to express and you took a lot of time and effort to do so, or that you see a deeper vision of the world than they do. That feels dismissive.

    No one is trying to keep you from saying how you see things, or pull you back to a Fe outlook as the one right way. It is possible though that when they ask you more or challenging it, they are trying to better understand where you are coming from. I am wondering if that makes you feel put on the spot or defensive, as I feel with Te? For me, it has more to do with looking for a way to put into practice some of what you are saying and it is difficult to do so without properly understanding what Fi may look like when applied. Like with Te users, maybe that feels like we are forcing practical solutions before we adequately grasp the whole situation.

    I'm just not sure of a way to better figure to "synch up" our views as Jennifer called it, without looking for a way to bring some of Fi perspective into practical expression. Ideally, I think within an individual, a Fe perspective should be tempered by the beneficial added lens of Fi as we mature as individuals and vice versa. I also think that within a group, the mindset of both would end up creating a better result than only one or the other. This is what I think we are attempting to determine. Is that something that just can't be done, and so we are attempting to force Fi into a box that can't contain all the different individual expressions of it?

  5. #295
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    One thing that would help, could you point me to the specific questions you've asked of the FPs fidelia/and others? Since what I think I'll do in response is answer those questions, and then comment on the NFP's perspectives and tell how it differs from mine to give some clarity I suppose.
    I personally am cool with you answering said questions... but I remember earlier I sort of got slapped because I was addressing Fe from the Sensor perspective (i.e., SFJ ) rather than NF behavior... and people complained... since this conversation is in the NF Idyllic. Rotsa ruck!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #296
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    8,263

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    PeaceBaby, I've seen you so far recommend to EW, myself and Jennifer that we try active listening, as if it's something that you came up with and have mastered and which we never have.
    I've come to the conclusion that NFJs (at least speaking for myself) are basically relentless in trying to understand things (discounting the usual issues for people not to be). I'm still unclear how NPs come up with new possiblities (and would like to know more), but I think NJs try to focus on whatever part of a subject they're missing, what they might have been off with, what's gone wrong, etc.. Relentless in the sense that we stick to it too, in J fashion. It's gotten me in trouble, where I just don't "leave things alone", and in a few cases, throw people off because I come back later with an entirely new understanding of something than before.. I used to think I was messed up for this. Anyways, my point is that I agree. If an ENFJ or INFJ says they're trying, you can count on that being true. They risk even being annoying if they're trying to understand something (just a joke..I'm just trying to illustrate a point ).

  7. #297
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,096

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I personally am cool with you answering said questions... but I remember earlier I sort of got slapped because I was addressing Fe from the Sensor perspective (i.e., SFJ ) rather than NF behavior... and people complained... since this conversation is in the NF Idyllic. Rotsa ruck!
    I'm open to whatever. I just get confused when there are so many varieties of each kind of Fe and Fi and it sometimes muddies what we are really referring to when we talk about Fe and Fi. There Ni-Fe and Fe-Ti and Ne-Fi and Fi-Te and then all the other S versions. Do we start separate threads to distinguish, have several conversations going on within this one, or what do you guys think works best?

  8. #298
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    3h50
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,460

    Default

    Maybe it would help to discuss the issue without resorting to functions.

  9. #299
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    468 sx/sp
    Socionics
    EII None
    Posts
    4,383

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I've come to the conclusion that NFJs (at least speaking for myself) are basically relentless in trying to understand things (discounting the usual issues for people not to be). I'm still unclear how NPs come up with new possiblities (and would like to know more), but I think NJs try to focus on whatever part of a subject they're missing, what they might have been off with, what's gone wrong, etc.. Relentless in the sense that we stick to it too, in J fashion. It's gotten me in trouble, where I just don't "leave things alone", and in a few cases, throw people off because I come back later with an entirely new understanding of something than before.. I used to think I was messed up for this. Anyways, my point is that I agree. If an ENFJ or INFJ says they're trying, you can count on that being true. They risk even being annoying if they're trying to understand something (just a joke..I'm just trying to illustrate a point ).
    Yes! I've been told more than once to "stop poking it with a stick."

  10. #300
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Right now, I am reading a lot of latent emotion in your comments.
    It seems to me you have picked up some emotional timbre in that post. And you are correct to feel that there is some emotion. What I note you interpreting this as is me being angry or upset, or retaliating. What you are really feeling is the passion behind my words and in noting passion you are assigning potential motivations for that passion, from your perspective. And, Ti will tell you there could be many motivations. I respect that.

    So stay with me now; we're in the front seat of the roller coaster, and I promise we won't fall out.

    My specific thoughts were that you were pointing to naivete on behalf of myself and Fi in general, and I countered it with a more direct and plaintive posting style to demonstrate not only my clarity and sincerity, but to elicit more specifics from you. Let me elucidate ...

    I felt like your first line was an unexpected slap in my face... like I went into an area I thought was safe, and I stepped into a wound. (Note my post above, where I specifically described the benefits of avoiding engagement based on the desire to not needlessly poke another person's wounds... one benefit of social morality.) Am I right in perceiving this, or am I reading into things?
    You felt like I snapped you back in that first line, I take it? That you felt safe to make a general comment about truth but were shocked to see me respond more directly and seemingly more forcefully. And it may have hurt your feelings some. Or at least confused you why the tone felt different. You then tried to figure it out. The best thing you did there was to ask your questions. Allow me to share my feelings on them.

    Yes, I feel you are reading more into that than exists. No, it's not a wound. Of that I can assure you. But I responded more passionately because to me it's a statement of the obvious. And, I needed to really gauge - do you think PB is deluded enough to think she is the bearer of Truth (capital T emphasized?) Say it isn't so! I wanted clarity.

    You say a lot of things here that you really seem to believe are true -- I read them as conscious values you hold inside of you, and you are even rising up to state them here with conviction, so I *know* you believe them -- but when I engage you in these sorts of discussions, I feel like the way you are engaging and the sort of stances taken are saying something else entirely... which is why I felt I needed to clarify what I did.
    You feel my beliefs run counter to how I present myself? Expand this for me. Do you feel defensive when I counter with direct phrases? Does it feel hostile to you? Does my passion feel threatening somehow?

    What you just said here surprised me because it was running counter to my perception. Why am I perceiving you that way? I honestly don't know... but it's clear there is a dissonance between your perception and mine that we have to work through.
    What way did you perceive me? As being retaliatory? As being angry? Share the specific emotions and let's dissect them, k? Think of all of the emotions you believe I had writing that last post.

    Even rewrite that post to look like what you believed I was saying.

    Invest this time with me and we can sort this through.

    Could you explain more about how someone can be honoring another person's "truth" if they actively disrupt it and engage in ways that deny it or downplay it? It sounds like you believe it to be true, so I want to understand, and I'm not getting it -- it doesn't seem to operate to me that way.
    Perhaps what is needed is a disclaimer. In a perfect world, we could all live "our truths" - oooh and let's rewind some - we could all even have a chance to discover our truth in the first place, in order that we could realize the potential of our lives. In that perfect world, you could live your truth and I mine and we could collectively co-exist, harmoniously. Naturally, that means we all are lucky enough to have healthy bodies and minds too, received healthy parenting and had growth-oriented life experiences, never mind any differences in cognitive function or in how we see the world.

    So yes, the perfect world.

    I was talking about Fi as a framework, not you specifically as a human being.

    It sounds like that comment bothered you.
    Thanks for clarifying.

    That one did make me bristle a bit ... that comment negates the very essence of Fi. One can still hope ... it's like Te saying to Ti, "That can't be done in the Real World". Well, Ti knows it, knows that may be true, but that doesn't stop one from dreaming, does it?

    I guess I could get offended too and respond with an, "After all you know *I'VE* been through in my life, you think I would demand someone else get back into the program and just merely follow status quo?!?" Geez. I mean, I've been bitten in the ass as much as you have or more because I haven't "toed the line" and I lost all of my social/family status because of chasing my personal truth.
    I know you have experienced much pain and know much of loss, to which I am completely empathetic. You know what the burden of oppression feels like, you know what the loss of trust feels like, and you know what it is to be shunned for simply being YOU. That precious Jen that so many of us here on the forum have come to admire and adore.

    My desire was to expand how that comment starts to feel confining. I want to be sure I am hearing it right, so I rephrase it in an extreme way. You read my questions as fact, when it is still a question. This happened in that Sx thread, exactly the same way, and your reaction was the same then too.

    The way I present the question, the language I am using is the barrier, I see that now.

    I said, "Can I not even here say how I feel at the edges without someone feeling the need to pull me back to center, to get me back in line with the program?" The response that would help me is, "PB, of course we want to hear your POV, and even though we don't get it, it's great that you have shared your thoughts. We just want to understand you better. Let's keep talking!"

    You (generic you) read it as a statement, a judgement. It's not. I promise it's just a question. Albeit one with some passion driving it. But it's way more contemplative than you are perceiving.

    But if we are going to describe Fe vs Fi -- yes, Fe is saying there are established protocols that mean something, based on human values and how people interact and function, and that Collective Morality can describe that, and Fi is saying there is Individual Truth that exists in each person and that needs to be expressed... and that both types of morality need to be synced up somehow.
    That's lovely actually. @bold: I agree completely.

    -----

    I sense that anytime my posts come across as being "emo", that Fe takes what it SEES, attributes a variety of emotional motivations to those words a'la Ti, picks what seems most probable, then either feels sympathy or feels threatened etc. and thus desires to bring the poster back to center.

    I don't need you to do that for me.

    EDIT: Before anyone else jumps on the paragraphs below, please read further on in thread because I don't need 10 more people saying I've been pretentious here. Thanks.

    I enter these discussions expecting to understand as much as be understood. But I feel like I am reaching way past the center to help you (generic you) understand Fi - in order to really take this trip with me, you must take my hand and not be afraid to go to the darker places. It's OK. I am with you. I'm not going to let you go and my intention is not to hurt you. We'll come through it OK if you let it happen.

    What would it take for you to trust me at this point? I am still here and still trying.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

Similar Threads

  1. When Fe meets Fi......
    By RedAmazoneFriendZone in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 05-15-2016, 08:09 AM
  2. Fe vs. Fi, Disloyalty, Allegiance, Or the Lack Thereof…
    By Esoteric Wench in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 59
    Last Post: 01-13-2011, 07:55 PM
  3. [NT] Fe and Fi, the NT version
    By BlahBlahNounBlah in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 73
    Last Post: 04-20-2010, 09:55 AM
  4. Let's end the Fe/Ti - Fi/Te wars once and for all...
    By onemoretime in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 03-16-2010, 12:00 PM
  5. Why does Ti always go with Fe and Fi with Te?
    By sofmarhof in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 73
    Last Post: 02-23-2010, 03:57 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO