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  1. #1
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Default P vs. J = Pre-decision vs. Post-decision?

    This is an excerpt of mine from an e-mail correspondence with an INTP friend who is kind of agonizing over the INTP vs. INTJ dichotomy and annoyed that IPs lead with a judging function (and IJs, with a perceiving one.)

    I argued that MBTI's J vs. P is simply not the same thing as Jung's terms for perceiving vs. judging functions, but is its own unique fourth attribute.

    Anyway here are my thoughts on J and P, if anyone has any response:

    His inflexibility on Christianity is not characteristically INTJ; INTPs do this constantly on issues that they've spent so much time thinking about that they've mentally classified the issue as "solved." An INTP takes a long time to get to this conclusion with most things, much longer than an INTJ--they insist on seriously considering every bit of data they can find during the decision process--this is another difference from INTJ, who is much more willing to apply his theories and act on his conclusions with little to no experience and relatively little data. To spend too long in considering all the angles and thus fail to act would be inefficient, and that's where MBTI's J function comes in.

    The kid is simply absolutely convinced that he's spent enough time on that issue and therefore found the correct answer, and now he's gone into INTP-certainty mode about it where he's very unwilling to listen to any new evidence or information. INTJs are not really inherently more rigid than INTPs; they're just harder to set into motion and they value efficiency so much that they often come to a fast decision in lieu of considering every possible angle (sounds like you are exactly right that Chris Anderson is INTP.) Only when new evidence arises indicating the previous conclusion was likely erroneous will the INTJ continue spending serious time deliberating new possibilities--but he reaches this point more easily than an INTP who's already "concluded" that issue in his mind.

    The difference is pre-decision and post-decision preference. That's a good way of describing the MBTI J/P dichotomy--Ps are more comfortable pre-decision (that's why they take so long to make a determination in the first place), but become rigid post-decision because this is no longer comfortable territory. They're just really uncomfortable making definite, final decisions on anything important (trivial decisions aside) without being ABSOLUTELY SURE it was the right decision, so this fear of being boxed in combines poorly with the unfortunate fact that decisions must be made to exist practically. Ps may be so afraid of making wrong definite determinations that they convince themselves that the "definite decisions" they've made MUST be correct--the alternative is uncomfortable enough that they will sometimes deny new post-decision information in order to avoid accepting having made the feared "final judgment" incorrectly.

    Js are the opposite--most comfortable post-decision, resulting sometimes in hasty judgments. I'm sure I don't need to elaborate further here.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #2
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    I must say... I don't really relate to your INTP description...

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    This is an excerpt of mine from an e-mail correspondence with an INTP friend who is kind of agonizing over the INTP vs. INTJ dichotomy and annoyed that IPs lead with a judging function (and IJs, with a perceiving one.)

    I argued that MBTI's J vs. P is simply not the same thing as Jung's terms for perceiving vs. judging functions, but is its own unique fourth attribute.

    Anyway here are my thoughts on J and P, if anyone has any response:
    Maybe introduce him to Socionics (or not, you may never hear the end of it).

    [I]His inflexibility on Christianity is not characteristically INTJ; INTPs do this constantly on issues that they've spent so much time thinking about that they've mentally classified the issue as "solved."
    I don't think I've ever classified an issue as "solved". I have classified stuff as "99% solved, though".

    The kid is simply absolutely convinced that he's spent enough time on that issue and therefore found the correct answer, and now he's gone into INTP-certainty mode about it where he's very unwilling to listen to any new evidence or information.
    I can't recall ever doing this, and I can't envision me realistically doing something like this. There have been times, however, when I've decided not to listen to people's arguments when I've classified them in my head as unintelligent due to a bad track record. However, I have a tendency to want to lecture on subjects I'm knowledgeable about, and of course in the process of doing that, people will disagree and present arguments, and if it's something I haven't heard before, then I will consider it.

    Ps may be so afraid of making wrong definite determinations that they convince themselves that the "definite decisions" they've made MUST be correct--the alternative is uncomfortable enough that they will sometimes deny new post-decision information in order to avoid accepting having made the feared "final judgment" incorrectly.
    I definitely don't do this. If I made a decision and it turned out it was wrong, then I'll say "based on the information I had at the time, it was the best decision", or if it was apparent that I had the information available, and just made a mistake, then, "I made a mistake. Oh well, no use regretting it. Learn from it and move on."

    Or maybe I have some hidden cognitive dissonance going on. Hiding from myself the times when I've been irrational...

    Anyway, the rest I agree with.

  3. #3
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Read my P and J thread for insight.
    we fukin won boys

  4. #4
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post

    I don't think I've ever classified an issue as "solved". I have classified stuff as "99% solved, though".



    I definitely don't do this. If I made a decision and it turned out it was wrong, then I'll say "based on the information I had at the time, it was the best decision", or if it was apparent that I had the information available, and just made a mistake, then, "I made a mistake. Oh well, no use regretting it. Learn from it and move on."

    Or maybe I have some hidden cognitive dissonance going on. Hiding from myself the times when I've been irrational...

    Anyway, the rest I agree with.

    Well, that cognitive dissonance part is what I'm referring to. Many INTPs are much smarter than the general population and painfully aware of it, so much so that they don't give the viewpoints of others due consideration, at times. Of course you would change your approach if you realized you were wrong; the problem comes with the realization part! INTJs seem more able to recognize past mistakes than INTPs, and I think it's because the INTJ didn't put the same vast amount of time into the original decision and therefore doesn't mind trying something else--if you can show a strong intuitive reason why it should be tried.

    Irrationality is the INTP's dreaded bogeyman. They spend SO much time on their hypothetical ideas that they actually can become more rigid about changing them than their J counterparts, for fear of having wasted time on an incorrect theory (hence the aforementioned cognitive dissonance)--anything to avoid accepting that one has acted irrationally! Maybe I'm misreading the cognitive process, but INTPs are terrific at justifying almost anything they want to themselves because as dominant Ti types they find inner rational consistency to be extremely important.

    So important that, from the outside looking in, they will ignore new information because they don't like having any of their basic thought pillars questioned. It gets even worse when the idea you're questioning is one on which they've built hundreds of bigger thought patterns, because they're so incredibly threatened by the idea of throwing out ALL those thoughts (this directly threatens their Ti ability, which is often 95% of their self image) that they'll go to great lengths to convince themselves that their premises are still correct (moreso than INTJs), which sometimes does involve ignoring new information by cleverly convincing themselves that it doesn't need addressing.

    INTJs don't bother with this bullshit; they recognize the gross inefficiency inherent in this strategy, bite the bullet and throw out the old idea (along with any that were built directly on it.)

    In short, INTPs will spend a nearly limitless amount of time coming up with new arguments to justify anything they want to be true. Sometimes I want to just smack them and say, "Shut up and do it already, you can't logic your way out of this one!" and that's coming from another NTP! Imagine how bad it must look to an SJ, for instance. INTJs will try to do something like this sometimes, but usually are quicker to reach the conclusion that some issues require prompt action and simply can't be hypothetical-problem-solved to death.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #5
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    long post
    Well. Your experiences are different than mine then. I don't recall doing any of those things you described. In fact, I tend to welcome new information. New information is great. Undiscovered territory. If I have to throw out all my old theories, fine. That just means there's that much more room for me to explore.

    Of course, if I really do have cognitive dissonance, then I wouldn't remember ever doing this, would I?

  6. #6
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    Ps skip from data to data making a decision for each piece. P is more likely to say it depends and then spend too much time figuring it out thus consistency is objective.

    Js take a sample and make a single decision. J is more likely to make a mistake by assuming the incorrect data thus consistency is subjective.

  7. #7
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemons View Post
    Ps skip from data to data making a decision for each piece. P is more likely to say it depends and then spend too much time figuring it out thus consistency is objective.

    Js take a sample and make a single decision. J is more likely to make a mistake by assuming the incorrect data thus consistency is subjective.
    Leave it to INTJ to condense that into one sentence. Thanks.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #8
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    I feel free to speak my mind and I know not everyone likes that, but I can be sexy.

  9. #9
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Well. Your experiences are different than mine then. I don't recall doing any of those things you described. In fact, I tend to welcome new information. New information is great. Undiscovered territory. If I have to throw out all my old theories, fine. That just means there's that much more room for me to explore.

    Of course, if I really do have cognitive dissonance, then I wouldn't remember ever doing this, would I?
    And you never did anything like that when you were younger or less mature than you are now?

    I think a balanced INTP would be, well, balanced enough to avoid this...it doesn't apply to all but I've seen it come up in various INTPs I know and I was intuiting a guess as to why. They seem to somehow logically short circuit themselves into isolation, social awkwardness and ultimately depression because their powers of logical self-justification are so great.

    But, knowing that it doesn't fit you is another piece of information, so thank you.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #10
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemons View Post
    I feel free to speak my mind and I know not everyone likes that, but I can be sexy.
    Oh, I just now noticed that my previous post came off as sarcastic. Actually I meant that seriously; you put it more succinctly and it actually kind of helped prove my point about NTJs and efficiency: you are simply more to the point than we NTPs.

    That was an honest thank you!
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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