[ENFP] xNFP and selfishness?

[onemoretime]

OMT:

What I meant was...well consider the difference between law and corporate business. The law provide the main guidelines of contracts between corporations everywhere. But, those coporations will, on top of that, negotiate the terms that they themselves also want to agree upon to guarantee their specific wants and needs being fulfilled.

And they have to fulfill certain actions and procedures for those wants and needs to be enforceable.

The same goes for people. The law provides the framework for society to work with. Aside from that, as far as I'm concerned, you can consider something to be unethical and immoral, but those things are still to be negotiated between people.

How do you deal with strangers, then?

Example: cheating is considered immoral, not illegal. And open marriages do exist, where technically, cheating goes on, a practice that is considered immoral by many, but it's none of their business. That's between those two people.

No one's saying that they can't engage in their relationship the way they want to. Is it right for them to assume, however, that this makes cheating right per se? Does it give them the ability, if they divorce, to cheat on their next SO and when confronted, say "K, I'll be more mindful next time?"

That's the level I'm talking about. This is even below that still. You have to at least determine first what you want in the relationship and let your prospect partner know. I dunno about you, but when I start dating someone I state that I want an exclusive relationship with them. And he, in turn, can express the fact that he wants it to be temporary, casual or date other people as well. Same thing.

I'm really talking more about general interpersonal conduct and not the intimate relationships between close people. Of course those are varied from couple to couple(?). The problem is that there just isn't enough time on this planet to get to know everyone that closely.

Edit: Sigh, I swore I wouldn't be a part of this anymore. We once again hijacked a thread for this ever lasting debate. Not that I mind the way it's going, the example that this INTJ provided of his interaction between him and his TP, has given us some serious stuff to work with, and it's getting us somewhere, but we really should stop derailing every thread into this topic people!

Doesn't this speak to the heart of why Fe-types think xNFPs are selfish?

What makes you think I'm talking about running away?

How do you enforce boundaries without a willingness to defend them.

You're sounding like an INTJ.

Close (we do have the same pattern with opposing orientations). INTJs shut themselves in. ENTPs shut various others out.

 

[onemoretime]

No, Te is the established law. Society can't function properly if murder is legal. If you violate Te laws, you'll likely run into legal consequences.

Fe is a cultural standard that is (usually) not enforced through law--at least not in most Western countries. The only typical consequences for violating Fe laws are social rejection and alienation.

Before codification, where did the principles that constituted the common law come from? Fe.

Fe is the law of social interaction among non-familiar humans in a given community. That's the point I was making.

 

[onemoretime]

The hell it is. You cannot fine me for being rude to you. You can just consider it unethical. You cannot punish or jail a spouse for cheating on you either. It's not illegal, therefore it's not the law. It's just the violation of a personal contract between two people.

You violate Fe, you'll get ostracized.

It's just as hard and binding as statute. You yourself were pointing out how restrictive and imposing it seemed.

 

[uumlau]

How do you enforce boundaries without a willingness to defend them.

Defending implies attacking or punishing?

 

[onemoretime]

Defending implies attacking or punishing?

Well, there is obstinacy to the point of the attacker's boredom, but that just gives them an opportunity to regroup and return another day with better weapons.

 

[simulatedworld]

Before codification, where did the principles that constituted the common law come from? Fe.

Fe is the law of social interaction among non-familiar humans in a given community. That's the point I was making.

What common law was there before codified laws existed? All that existed before that was total anarchy.

 

[Uytuun]

No one's saying that they can't engage in their relationship the way they want to. Is it right for them to assume, however, that this makes cheating right per se? Does it give them the ability, if they divorce, to cheat on their next SO and when confronted, say "K, I'll be more mindful next time?"

Lol, I think I'll adopt "Kay, I'll be more mindful next time" as my new user title or signature or something.

 

[onemoretime]

What common law was there before codified laws existed? All that existed before that was total anarchy.

Common law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In English-speaking countries, codification of the law is a relatively recent development, for the most part.

 

[Amargith]

Strangers can be dealt with the way you want. Either you avoid them, as you're not interested in relationships, or you get interested in them and approach them about that interest....or you can go Fe and use the universal 'hi, how are you doing' to see what they're about. Personally, I'll go for the second approach. I will use the Fe-general norm to navigate till I know enough about the person to know how they personally like things, till we're comfortable enough to make a contract with one another and we know what we want from each other. No point in staying with the standard generic stuff, if we can maximize our benefits by tailoring our own contract.


As for your 'i can cheat on my next gf coz i had an open relationship with the previous one': no. Again, that's doing stuff before you negotiate and know what to expect from one another. Just as much as she doesn't get to assume that he's there to have an exclusive long-term life arrangment without even discussing it with him. Communication is key.

Ok boys, I'm out, coz I see where this is going and I don't have the stomach for this. Toodles!

 

[simulatedworld]

Common law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In English-speaking countries, codification of the law is a relatively recent development, for the most part.

Right, but what standards for behavior would people have used before any form of government existed? Without any legal repercussions for any behaviors, it seems like the only motivating value for most people would be self-preservation and promotion of self-interest.

 

[onemoretime]

Right, but what standards for behavior would people have used before any form of government existed? Without any legal repercussions for any behaviors, it seems like the only motivating value for most people would be self-preservation and promotion of self-interest.

No. We're instinctively social creatures.

 

[Thalassa]

As usual Amargith is the only NFP doing a decent job of explaining any of this.

I got a few ideas for how to approach NFPs a little better from her in this thread, so thanks Amargith.

I read one line of neptune's post, realized it was going to be useless histrionic 4w3 garbage, and skipped to the next Amargith post. No surprise there.

You mean she's the only NFP you can relate to. I think we feel the same way about the bulk of your posts (not to mention OMTs posts, which I cannot read, because I have put them on ignore) so it's less about Neptune's posts being "useless garbage" and more about our lack of willingness to work with people who are acting like total jerks. I think Amargith, for some reason - I can't figure out if she's a masochist or what - wants to make peace with you guys, even if you're metaphorically punching her in the face. If that's what it requires to get along with certain ENTPs, no thnx.

 

[SillySapienne]

So in the past months the past two women ive been attracted to have 2 things in common..
1. They were both xNFP, [one tested more E, one more I]
2. I cant help but get the vibe they only want to talk about themselves.

Honest to god, one of them was a ginormous flirt, and was open about it, it was very obvious the relationship from her perspective was 90% eye candy and 10% communication. as all she wanted to seem to do when around me was talk about other boys she hangs out with and takes pictures of me.
The other, relationship is a healthy 10% attraction and 90% communication. but the communication is always about her.

Amar appropriately asked you the right question...

Why are you attracted to them?

Seriously, NEITHER of these relationships sound/seem remotely healthy.

And, as we all should, too, you need to take responsibilty for your part in your willingness to participate in these relationships.

What do these women/girls you found yourself attracted to, and their apparent/glaring flaws say about YOU.

Honestly, please ask yourself that.

Are they enneagram 4's? 4's (or any heart triad member really) tend to love to talk about themselves when they trust someone in my experience.

PEOPLE LOVE TO TALK ABOUT THEMSELVES!!!



It's human nature.

And, even moreso, when people feel like they can trust their audience, they feel more at ease and hence more willing to disclose personal shit about themselves.

It honestly boggles my fucking mind, the idea that someone cannot comprehend this FACT.

What's utterly ironic about this thread is that, if anything, other people tend to open up to us, (NFPs), due to our nonjudgmental and open natures.

Either I am an exception to the rule, or your perception of NFPs and 4s is waaaaaay off.

ENFPs take their relationships very seriously, but also approach them with a childlike enthusiasm and energy. They seek and demand authenticity and depth in their personal relationships, and will put forth a lot of effort into making things work out. They are warm, considerate, affirming, nurturing, and highly invested in the health of the relationship. They have excellent interpersonal skills, and are able to inspire and motivate others to be the best that they can be

I am definitely an ENFP and a 4w5, prototypically so, if anything.

We *genuinely* care about people, and especially our loved ones.

Part of this genuine care and concern we have for others is manifested in our desire and ability to ACTUALLY LISTEN to people in hopes to truly understand them better.

Ugh.

 

[uumlau]

Well, there is obstinacy to the point of the attacker's boredom, but that just gives them an opportunity to regroup and return another day with better weapons.

I'm fairly sure that your imagination is capable of coming up with better defenses than obstinacy or attack. For someone professing a deep understanding of Fe, I am not seeing evidence of said understanding.

No. We're instinctively social creatures.

And what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

You're trying to argue that Fe is the law. Fe is only a small piece of the much larger set of possible social interactions. Heck, it's at best a hypothetical psychological function that seems to help describe some people. There are plenty of social interactions that do not invoke Fe. Granted, handling the subtleties of such interactions is often (but not always) a strength of those with a preference for Fe.

Anything deserving the name appellation "the law" was created by many humans of many opinions with many different motivations and goals. Fe doesn't even deserve the name "social contract." It's a psychological function, not the grand unified theory of human interaction.

 

[simulatedworld]

You mean she's the only NFP you can relate to. I think we feel the same way about the bulk of your posts (not to mention OMTs posts, which I cannot read, because I have put them on ignore) so it's less about Neptune's posts being "useless garbage" and more about our lack of willingness to work with people who are acting like total jerks. I think Amargith, for some reason - I can't figure out if she's a masochist or what - wants to make peace with you guys, even if you're metaphorically punching her in the face. If that's what it requires to get along with certain ENTPs, no thnx.

Neptune's post reduced to, "You'll never understand Fi so just give up on your friendship", which sounds like useless garbage to me.

Amargith gave some genuine advice on ways I could try talking to him that might ameliorate some of the tension during disagreements. You and Neptune generally just whine about how much you hate ENTPs, which is entirely useless to me.

In fact, type 9 NFPs usually seem genuinely interested in helping different sides understand each other. Amargith, Peacebaby, Udog, etc. I find them quite helpful.

It's usually just the 4s that spend their whole post on some histrionic bitch-fest. Yes, that shit is useless.

 

[SillySapienne]

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/6684-enfp-s-good-bad-listeners.html

In defense of other ENFPs like me.

Many of us are innately good listeners.

 

[SillySapienne]

I know you guys are talking about some functional analysis stuff, now.

But, I still think my posts pertain to the OP's topic.

 

[Thalassa]

Neptune's post reduced to, "You'll never understand Fi so just give up on your friendship", which sounds like useless garbage to me.

Amargith gave some genuine advice on ways I could try talking to him that might ameliorate some of the tension during disagreements. You and Neptune generally just whine about how much you hate ENTPs, which is entirely useless to me.

Yes, she even apologized to OMT in another thread where he was behaving like a total buttwipe, and INTJs as well as NFPs shared this opinion - but Amar, with her affinity for peacemaking, felt it was necessary to allow him to get his way. I don't roll that way. Maybe she's a 9.

In fact, type 9 NFPs usually seem genuinely interested in helping different sides understand each other. Amargith, Peacebaby, Udog, etc. I find them quite helpful.

And you have to understand that some other people view that as being masochistic and enabling shitty behavior.

It's usually just the 4s that spend their whole post on some histrionic bitch-fest. Yes, that shit is useless.

We feel the same way about you guys. I think we're just not meant to get along, because your posts look just as meaningless and blah blah blah to us.

<DELETED - Needless tension in this language, let there be peace again, thank you. -Halla>

 

[Amargith]

Alright people, let's get one thing straight here.

a) I aint the topic of convo here
b) I aint a 9, I'm a 4 and a damned intense one at that :steam:
c) I have a vested interest in understanding ENTPs so this is all selfish
d) I can understand boht Neptune and Marm in this, and I am trying to understand OMT and Sims while shielding myself from accidental blows by OMT and Sim because they more than once expressed that they appreciate my insights (which then was greatly appreciated by me and allowed me to shield myself properly when we talk), therefore showing me that they do respect what I have to say, so I can actually learn something here. I'm trying to understand, and gain understanding about all people out there, including the ones that are hard to grasp for me, such as ENTPs. And I've found that blowing up on them emotionally, just leaves me more scarred and gains me little, so I'm trying this this way.
e) I'm not enabling anything, I think OMT can testify to me not taking any crap from him in this thread

Now, I can go back and try and translate Neptunes intentions to the ENTPs, if that will help put this to an end, or we can just assume that she meant well, but maybe didn't have all the info on the situation, which then lead Sim to conclude that her response was maybe not that applicable to his situation.

Either way, plz retract your claws guys

 

[simulatedworld]

Yes, she even apologized to OMT in another thread where he was behaving like a total buttwipe, and INTJs as well as NFPs shared this opinion - but Amar, with her affinity for peacemaking, felt it was necessary to allow him to get his way. I don't roll that way. Maybe she's a 9.

She does seem like a 9.

And you have to understand that some other people view that as being masochistic and enabling shitty behavior.

Mediating between disagreeing parties and helping people understand each other's perspectives better is somehow bad? What? Admitting that each perspective has some validity instead of outright dismissing the ENTP one is "enabling shitty behavior"?

We feel the same way about you guys. I think we're just not meant to get along, because your posts look just as meaningless and blah blah blah to us.

Amargith makes a consistent effort to read our posts, try to determine where the miscommunication is happening and explain what we don't understand in more palatable terms that make more sense from our perspectives.

At least I admit there are things about Fi that I don't understand. You seem dogmatically convinced that Ti is just factually wrong, end of story.

I would have thought you'd be perceptive enough to recognize the lack of objective correctness in these disagreements of perspective. You seem to interpret anything critical of your type tendencies as "shitty behavior", and unfortunately lack Amargith's desire/ability to try to translate between different perspectives in order to facilitate better communication.

But no, you're not even interested in trying to do that. And you wonder why I think your posts are useless compared to Amargith's.

Isn't the whole point of typology to facilitate better communication via learning about perspectives that don't naturally make sense to you? That doesn't really work if you just label all of those opposing perspectives "shitty behavior" and condemn the people who are actually trying to improve relationships.