Why does everyone hate ESFJs? (Warning.... yet another Fe vs. Fi discussion)

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I've been reading up on them, and they actually sound kind of cool.

ESFJs’ Fe can present differently among strangers than it does with their intimates. In larger groups, ESFJs may seem consistently “positive” in their expressions as part of their attempt to cultivate good social feelings. In the company of close confidants, however, they are more apt to share their negative emotions and grievances. And because their words are often bathed in emotion, ESFJs can seem intense or dramatic in their expressions. While such expressions are commonly interpreted as “irrational” by Thinkers or Fi types, they are rational to the degree to which they accurately reflect the nature of the experienced emotion. In many instances, given sufficient time, ESFJs will further refine or soften their initial Fe judgments as they move through the Perceiving functions of their functional stack.In contrast to IFPs, ESFJs can have a more difficult time independently perceiving their own emotions. This is due to the fact that their Feeling function is extraverted rather than introverted. Consequently, ESFJs don’t spend as much time trying to independently sort out their emotions. Inwardly, they deal largely in the currency of Si. So when ESFJs find themselves in emotionally troubling circumstances, they often (and should) turn to others for support or guidance. Expressing themselves through their Fe is critical to their psychological (and physical) health and well-being. Even if doing so does not provide them with an immediate solution to the problem at hand, they tend to feel better once they have expressed their feelings, be it through words or through tears. Unfortunately, parents and teachers often fail to understand this about their FJ children and may end up stifling their Fe expressions. At least in the U.S., Fi seems to be the most common and socially accepted way to handle emotions. ESFJ females, in particular, can feel misunderstood in a culture predominated by FP and TJ females.

So despite the positive emotional output much of the time, they can and do express more negative emotions, just not among people who aren't in their inner circle. I don't see that as being fake, I see that as being practical, especially when you have types that are always "absorbing" the vibes of others around. And what is an inner circle for if you aren't supposed to share the stuff you're afraid to talk about anyone else with? What's so bad about that?

To me it seems like an ESFJ wouldn't do the "I'm mad at you because you splashed too much water in the sink, even though I'm really mad about something else that I won't tell you" thing. Would that be correct? If you were close to an ESFJ, they probably wouldn't need much pushing or wait until an argument to tell you what was bothering them, it seems. To me, that's good. I wish I was better at that.

It's also interesting to contrast the dominant Extraverted Feeling dynamc with the inferior Extraverted Feeling. More on that if people are interested.

 

[Azure Flame]

the internet hates extrovert sensors (ESxx) in general, thinking our sole purpose is to make everyone else's lives hell.

ESFJ's are some of my best friends. People like bruce campbell and louis black. Very fun and over the top random bunch.

 

[Standuble]

I think they are perceived as a perfect storm of being rampantly emotional, of being irrational and illogical (due to tertiary N and inferior T), of being overly traditional, of being too concerned with social convention and/or possessing a pack mentality, of being too unaware of the forest, of being unable to self-reflect on their faults, flaws and failings, being overly controlling and annoying and finally of being intolerant and too dismissive of people and ideas which fall outside their world-view.

The above of course is a stereotype and every type can experience the aforementioned shortfalls in some capacity or another.

 

[Cellmold]

I think they are perceived as a perfect storm of being rampantly emotional, of being irrational and illogical (due to tertiary N and inferior T), of being overly traditional, of being too concerned with social convention and/or possessing a pack mentality, of being too unaware of the forest, of being unable to self-reflect on their faults, flaws and failings, being overly controlling and annoying and finally of being intolerant and too dismissive of people and ideas which fall outside their world-view.

It certainly is true that those traits seem to be supplied in abundance the world over.

 

[Standuble]

It certainly is true that those traits seem to be supplied in abundance the world over.

Indeed. If you are an ESFJ like you claim then know that I haven't seen any of the above complaints or shortfalls from you. It's unfortunate that I cannot say similar things about my mother.

 

[RaptorWizard]

I probably hate ESFPs more than ESFJs; it's not like they're all bad, but many can shun me or other geeks for being way too uncool or out of touch and unable to conform with basic social graces.

At least ESFJs can keep things in benevolent order and give service with a smile on!

ESFPs on the other hand want to have fun in ways that run counter to all of my methods of intense contemplation and high determination.

 

[FemMecha]

I have seen ESFJs be especially good at identifying people's emotional and physical needs and acting on these to help in a direct and meaningful way. I have also found communication with ESFJs to be clear, direct, and reflect exactly what is going on in a grounded way. I feel that I need to learn to state my own needs and feelings clearly and directly with them which can be difficult for me, but once that is settled, the relationship is restful because it does have clarity.

 

[garbage]

They're the group that everyone's just agreed to dump all the bad traits into.

 

[Standuble]

They're the group that everyone's just agreed to dump all the bad traits into.

That would be ESTJ.

 

[garbage]

That would be ESTJ.

Ah, yeah. ESxJ in general got shafted. They were outright defined as "bad," and of course they're gonna be hated.

(I think ESFJs tends to be seen as "enforcing dickholes like ESTJs, but also neurotic, and prone to mood swings." They're less "the man who's thumb has pinned me down," more "the easily disturbed, meddling moral momma.")

 

[Pseudo]

My best friend is an ESFJ. And as much as INTPs are seen as alienated I think we bonded over her also feeling that way. Of course it's less apparent because she does tend, publicly, to always wear a smile. She's accommodating with outsiders. Because she is so traditional is a field (art) where hipsters dominate she feels like an outcast. Even in broader society her being more interested in traditonal homemaking and religion leaves her feeling misunderstood. She often express frustration about not seeing the "real" version of a person. It's very much the idea that their is a public and private face. She's very funny and also good from overly introverted ruminating types (INFP husband and me) because she draws put attention back to the outside world and practical matters. She can be more abstract but she doesn't enjoy it, and general stays out of heat discussions about things that we can't change or have no practical application. This can also be frustrating though because she does hve the tendency to exaggerate her personality. That is in retaliation to people she disagrees with, rather than finding middle ground, she will go even more to the extreme of her side even if her true opinions are more
Moderate. So if she is pulled into abstract discussions (or even pragmati ones) shell often say outlandishly dogmatic and dismissive things.

Also in private while she is more fun and interesting and complex she is also more
Controlling. She has a great tendency to see things as a power struggle, good vs evil. She tries to do the right things, which is generally the traditional things, and wants the people in her life to do the same. She'll say stuff like "now that I married" or "now that I'm an adult I have to do XYZ". Very tight ideas about what is appropriate. But generally her standards are higher for herself than anyone else and she doesn't expect people to do what she is unwilling too. But that can be horrifying to moral NTs or any NFs because she "gets" just doing things for the money, stealing, and general fraud if it gets you ahead. In one of her more exaggerate and hyper pragmatic moods she said if she didn't beilieve in god she would care about morality. Also I think she has weak ti and a disinterest in developing it, so while she does have logic for why she beilieved what she beilieved she is incapable of playing devils advocate or even entertaining other perspectives. I guess in a way we share the belief in absolute truth but her support of is very much sort an emotional forceful belief. He can prove it but he knows it.

All and all I lover her very much. I think people to often see her standards for herself as her standard for the world and feel judged and get offended. In her case specifically because she has the smiling face people don't know how to say "no" to her and get resentful. She is bossy but does it so subtlety that you can't just say "stop being bossy". I found that being direct is best though. Because she doesn't compromise any attempt you Make to compromise leads to a long drawn out bleeding where she gets her way, and is never forceful but you feel forced. You have just cut it off at the start and generally then she'll back
down.

And also she geniunely does care. I read this about ENFJ but it think it's true of her too: she is putting on a face, a display, hiding things but it's not because she's fake. It's because she genuinely wants people to be comfortable And happy.

 

[HongDou]

Probably a lot of reading into negative stereotypes and not enough real life experience. In the internet world where quite a few people may harbor some annoyance or hatred of the famed social butterfly, ESFJs make an easy target for mocking and united hatred.

From my experience with being best friends with someone who may seem like the stereotypical ESFJ I have to say that she's one of the best people around. She's silly, fun to be around, positive company, and emotionally aware and sensitive. I also appreciate her sense of backbone, she's got a clear idea of what she wants out of life and in people and what she doesn't. She can also be hardworking and determined. I think she's just an all-around awesome person. What I really appreciate is her delivery - she knows what she wants to say and she knows exactly how to say it so that everyone's happy. I love the win-win situations she tries to strive towards. Wait, I'm rambling again.

I think ESFJs in general are pretty awesome people to be around. If you're friends with them, they're gonna be fiercely loyal to you while still providing a lot of fun. Sure, they may think something you do is a little weird or out of place but sometimes it's good to be kept in check. They can generally be pretty open-minded people regardless of how they're portrayed online too.

 

[The Great One]

I don't mind the ESFJ with strong Ne but I hate most ESFJ's. I feel like I have to watch every word that I say around them. Whenever I say something that could even have the potential to offend people, they tend to freak out. I also like to say a lot of crazy things and tell lude jokes, and they try to make me feel bad about saying these things all the time. I really hate it!

To perfectly illustrate what I'm talking about here, let me post a clip from season 3 of "Breaking Bad". In this clip a plane just crashed and many members of the community are affected by it. They ask the main INTJ character Walter White to give a speech about this, and he does. Now look at how uncomfortable he makes the hyspanic ESFJ lady in the back by his words, because she just knows that he his offending people and he could give less of a shit. She is constantly trying to get him to stop speaking in this clip because he is offending so many people, and eventually she just snatches the mike from him. This is what I feel like around ESFJ's in general.

[MENTION=5684]Elfboy[/MENTION] is this what you feel like around ESFJ's?

 

[Starry]

Hate an ENFP...? If so, the chances you're actually hating an ESFJ seem to be fairly high...

I've seen it happen here. A clearly ESFJ person shows up and is basically told by members they're ENFP if they're 'breezy' or wild and/or show even the slightest inclination towards intellectual pursuits or fashion *eye roll*

 

[Starry]

Probably a lot of reading into negative stereotypes and not enough real life experience. In the internet world where quite a few people may harbor some annoyance or hatred of the famed social butterfly, ESFJs make an easy target for mocking and united hatred.

From my experience with being best friends with someone who may seem like the stereotypical ESFJ I have to say that she's one of the best people around. She's silly, fun to be around, positive company, and emotionally aware and sensitive. I also appreciate her sense of backbone, she's got a clear idea of what she wants out of life and in people and what she doesn't. She can also be hardworking and determined. I think she's just an all-around awesome person. What I really appreciate is her delivery - she knows what she wants to say and she knows exactly how to say it so that everyone's happy. I love the win-win situations she tries to strive towards. Wait, I'm rambling again.

I think ESFJs in general are pretty awesome people to be around. If you're friends with them, they're gonna be fiercely loyal to you while still providing a lot of fun. Sure, they may think something you do is a little weird or out of place but sometimes it's good to be kept in check. They can generally be pretty open-minded people regardless of how they're portrayed online too.

Word.

 

[HongDou]

Hate an ENFP...? If so, the chances you're actually hating an ESFJ seem to be fairly high...

I've seen it happen here. A clearly ESFJ person shows up and is basically told by members they're ENFP if they're 'breezy' or wild and/or show even the slightest inclination towards intellectual pursuits or fashion *eye roll*

I feel like, when it comes to someone's type, most people can usually agree on the first and third letter but the second and fourth are always split. For example, I remember the debates between ENTJ and ESTP for Gordon Ramsay - the ExTx part was right but people were torn between NJ and SP. Similar thing happened on the Jennifer Lawrence thread iirc where people were leaning towards either ENFJ or ESFP. After looking at multiple Kelly Clarkson threads on Google, people either conceded to ESFJ or ENFP (and people were also torn between the two types for Asuna from Sword Art Online). I've also seen some debates between ISFP/INFJ and ISTP/INTJ. It's very odd, something about whether a perceiving function is dominant or tertiary throws people off but also I noticed each pair can carry themselves in similar ways in certain situations.

 

[PimpinMcBoltage]

To perfectly illustrate what I'm talking about here, let me post a clip from season 3 of "Breaking Bad". In this clip a plane just crashed and many members of the community are affected by it. They ask the main INTJ character Walter White to give a speech about this, and he does. Now look at how uncomfortable he makes the hyspanic ESFJ lady in the back by his words, because she just knows that he his offending people and he could give less of a shit. She is constantly trying to get him to stop speaking in this clip because he is offending so many people, and eventually she just snatches the mike from him. This is what I feel like around ESFJ's in general.

My memory might be a tad fuzzy (remembering exact details is always difficult for me, and she is a minor character.) But how exactly do you know said character's motivations for taking the microphone away? Even if it's an entirely fictional, it would be a guess as to how you could honestly make that assessment instead of her personally being offended by his speech.

Oh wells, as an Inferior Fe type, I would actually say that I'm a tad bit more hysteric and totalitarian around my feeling function, because of the fact that I don't really take a lot of my time out to evaluate things for myself. I just sort of absorb the social atmosphere around me, and whenever I find something that's disagreeable, I get in a giant rant about it. A Fe dom would likely not be so into hysterics, unless they are just a hysterical person in general. Besides Fe doms should actually try to consult more to how they think about things, and don't fear the fact that what something is inside of their head, is not wrong and incorrect. That they are actually capable of thinking things through, instead of going on by what's socially agreeable or not.

My personal opinion on ESFJs are that they are sort of boring as a type. No real strong emotions come when I see them mentioned, just sort of eye rolling at stereotypes.

 

[Lady_X]

I adore esfjs.

I think they can be hilarious and I'm super impressed with many of their specific qualities. I can see how the negative ones play out too but we all have them and from my perspective theirs are usually at least well intentioned.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I don't mind the ESFJ with strong Ne but I hate most ESFJ's. I feel like I have to watch every word that I say around them. Whenever I say something that could even have the potential to offend people, they tend to freak out. I also like to say a lot of crazy things and tell lude jokes, and they try to make me feel bad about saying these things all the time. I really hate it!

See, that's how IXFPs make me feel. I don't think ExFJs make me feel that way. It's hard to know, though... I've never been part of an ExFJs inner circle, so maybe I would run into that problem. Interesting.

 

[Standuble]

See, that's how IXFPs make me feel. I don't think ExFJs make me feel that way. It's hard to know, though... I've never been part of an ExFJs inner circle, so maybe I would run into that problem. Interesting.

IFPs are sensitive but they aren't retards. They take the hit, drown in an inner emotional abyss for a while and get up and move on. You don't need to act like they're fragile, naive little children around them either. If they're anything like me then they consider themselves closer to weary old war veterans. An insult would be just one in a very long line.