Why Do People Insist...

[Sunflower_Moon]

You've all made great points about why people do this. I understand how they may feel compelled to share their religion with people if they feel it's what they're supposed to do to comply with their dogma, but there's a difference between sharing and forcing. With sharing, it's a polite conversation where information is exchanged, there's respect for one another, and in the end the person chooses whether or not they'd like to convert. On the other hand, with forcing, it seems that people continue to push their beliefs on the other, insisting their way is correct (sometimes overtly disregarding the other person's religion), the voice and facial expression seems commanding, they may be arrogant, ignore or belittle the other person's choice to continue in the religion they're a member of or their set of spiritual beliefs.

I have several experiences that really triggered me to re-evaluate my view of organized religion over the years. I've been disrespected, treated badly, invalidated, and belittled for it. One time was when my husband and I were doing wedding preparations to get married. When a couple we had to meet during the process learned that I believed in a different religion, they asked me if I planned to convert, and when I declined, they asked me why. I gave valid and respectful reasons, and we left it at that for the moment. Maybe half-an-hour later they asked me again if I would consider to convert, and when I declined again, they accused me of being selfish. . .and they were complete strangers to me.

Another time is actually continuous and spans years. My husband's grandmother is devout to her religion, and she keeps insisting that I convert. I kept telling her no politely and told her the religion that I believed in. I've been dealing with infertility for seven years (an extremely emotional and depressing roller coaster), and she would approach me at the end of each visit when my husband and his family weren't around, and she'd tell me to convert to her religion. I declined, and she told me that I would get pregnant if I converted...implying that that the reason I suffer from infertility is because I don't follow her religion. To me that was psychological warfare, manipulation, and possibly a form of emotional abuse since it happened so often and was of two very important issues to me.

These aren't the only experiences that chased me away from organized religion, but two important ones that at least made me start thinking about what religion is, its purpose, how it seems to be at the root of more separation and hatred instead of unity and love. Not everyone in organized religions are bad, but there's a lot that are. I had many other questions and thoughts that maybe I'll post in the future, but I just feel that there's possibly a God, but one without dogma and all of this organized religion stuff. I think it would be much more simple rather than so complex, doesn't focus on how a person dresses, how many times they pray, if they curse or not, etc. I think it's just something very basic that everyone from every culture, race, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, etc. is capable of doing without reading a holy book. . .just focus on being a good person, treating others well and helping them, respecting the environment and balance. . .the main good things that come natural even in nature with animals.

I've noticed that nature and animals seem to get along much better than humans do because they don't have to worry about all of the ways in which humans have found to separate from one another and think one is superior than the other. Animals kill only for food, maybe for mating and territory sometimes (but usually injure). They don't pollute the planet or cause wars, their diets are simple and easy to understand...not filled with ingredients that we can't pronounce or properly metabolize, etc. Either way, I think it's about love, peace, balance, respect, and empathy. Again, too idealistic, and I don't actually expect people to ever change.

 

[gromit]

Well, if you're really sincerely asking vs just ranting...

Some of them are insecure and threatened by others feeling/believing differently from them
Others believe they have found something good and helpful in their lives, and honestly want to share it with others
Still others believe that in order to get something great (heaven) or avoid something horrible (hell) then you must subscribe to the same traditions as them, and thus they really want others to be able to avoid (or secure) that fate.

 

[Sunflower_Moon]

It isn't a rant really. I start thinking of these things when I'm treated badly, but it makes me think and re-evaluate why these things that seem so ridiculous exist, why do people take it so seriously, think of my own opinions about them...and more questions. It makes me wonder how people can break friendships or any relationships over such matters, end up not liking or hating someone they got along with pretty well before that...religion just seems to have a power to change everything. If one shows respect toward one's beliefs, why can't the other reciprocate it? Why is it worth ruining friendships, etc. over to the point that the person who is a different religion suddenly transforms to a plague in the other person's eyes? It's okay for people to have a religion and abide by it, but why can't they do it peacefully and respectfully? Religion shouldn't have to be one of the taboo topics of discussion, you know? Religions are like theories, none of them actually have enough concrete proof to say is the one true religion.

I'm sorry if it sounds like ranting, but that wasn't my intention.

 

[Frosty]

Yeah I would say that some might feel threatened by other believing differently, even if not intended. Feel that they are right, what they have put their time and energy into is right, and have to correct what they percieve as another's wrongs. They have attached themselves so strongly that they feel that there is no way out, so they try to force others in. But they do think that they are doing a good.

 

[Coriolis]

There is something fundamentally disrespectful in telling someone else that your religion is better than theirs and that they should convert.

I find it difficult to fault your experience, since its your experience, I've had very similar experience too but I try not to generalise.

There's the possibility that some evangelists just want to spread their views, the same as you and others would like to spread the gospel of the LGBT scene, you know what I mean?

Not really, since the first is exclusive and judgmental, while the second is inclusive and accepting. The first also claims divine authority, while the second simply looks at our common humanity.

As for proselytising, I have had similar experiences as well. The list of religious groups whose members have never even attempted to convert me include: Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Bahai's, Hindus, and Pagans of various traditions. I know quite a few representatives of some of these groups. Bahai's in fact are forbidden to seek converts. You must approach them with interest before they can engage you. I have also heard Hindus and Pagans at times almost discourage converts, telling people of other faiths that they should just be the best [Christian/Muslim/Buddhist/etc] that they can.

Others believe they have found something good and helpful in their lives, and honestly want to share it with others
Still others believe that in order to get something great (heaven) or avoid something horrible (hell) then you must subscribe to the same traditions as them, and thus they really want others to be able to avoid (or secure) that fate.

I can understand the idea of having found something so wonderful and helpful in life, that you want to share it with others. There is a respectful way to do this, however, along with lots of disrespectful ways. That is, simply to model the benefits in your own life and, like the Bahai's, wait for the other person to ask. Then, answer with only as much information as they seem to want. At the risk of making a poor analogy, a good "product" will sell itself.

 

[Luke O]

Even in the UK where people do generally give less of a shit than they do in the US, when I tell people that I don't believe in God, some of them will still get very confused over it and say "How can you not believe in God?". Wish I would have said "Well I'll show you..."

 

[Kas]

I think that [MENTION=9486]gromit[/MENTION] explained most of reasons.

What else? I think it comes from both sides. I’m sure it depends on society, but where I am right now, when somebody says he is a believer the silence falls and everybody looks at this person with doubt- intelligent person believing in god- impossible. I’ve seen both: religious people evangelizing (and keep doing it against their will) atheists and atheists keep proving to religious people that their thinking is stupid and treating them as the more stupid kind of people. And both are quite ridiculous. It’s causing people to form the groups where their opinions are the same (because they don’t want to listen all this whining all the time), instead of meeting different opinions even when we think they are wrong. It's not like we need to agree about everything.
Hope it will change.

 

[Totenkindly]

What else? I think it comes from both sides. I’m sure it depends on society, but where I am right now, when somebody says he is a believer the silence falls and everybody looks at this person with doubt- intelligent person believing in god- impossible. I’ve seen both: religious people evangelizing (and keep doing it against their will) atheists and atheists keep proving to religious people that their thinking is stupid and treating them as the more stupid kind of people. And both are quite ridiculous. It’s causing people to form the groups where their opinions are the same (because they don’t want to listen all this whining all the time), instead of meeting different opinions even when we think they are wrong. It's not like we need to agree about everything.
Hope it will change.

It's a shame the extremists define the conversation, although I guess mainly it's because they are the ones with the drive to address it. And then unfortunately it's the people who are invested with a more extreme POV that end up making the most noise and driving the discussion and maybe even social policy.

There's a huge bulk of people in the middle who either aren't sure, don't see it as a priority, and/or have a "live and let live" mentality in the face of some degree of ambiguity and don't like being personally dragged into the drama. Things have been more polarized here in the US in more recent years, but part of that is because the sides were not as balanced in the past... there was mostly just "one perspective," and now there's been an increasing shift of beliefs to something more median. People also are getting sick of the extreme viewpoints, and those views have also generated additional opposition due to their own vociferousness.

As for proselytising, I have had similar experiences as well. The list of religious groups whose members have never even attempted to convert me include: Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Bahai's, Hindus, and Pagans of various traditions. I know quite a few representatives of some of these groups. Bahai's in fact are forbidden to seek converts. You must approach them with interest before they can engage you. I have also heard Hindus and Pagans at times almost discourage converts, telling people of other faiths that they should just be the best [Christian/Muslim/Buddhist/etc] that they can.

Yes, I haven't had much dealing with Muslims to be honest (so I'm not about evangelism there), but it's usually the conservative Christian / fundamenalist / cultic sorts that have tried to argue me and others into their particular sect. (The fracturing of Christian belief in the US has always been odd to me: Even when I belonged to a conservative evangelical mindset, I would have other conservative sects trying to convert me to their flavor of belief.)

My experience with other groups you've mentioned has been much as you've said: They will share their own views and theological understandings if it comes up in a conversation naturally, but not to evangelize and they've never really tried to argue/convert someone to their beliefs.

I can understand the idea of having found something so wonderful and helpful in life, that you want to share it with others. There is a respectful way to do this, however, along with lots of disrespectful ways. That is, simply to model the benefits in your own life and, like the Bahai's, wait for the other person to ask. Then, answer with only as much information as they seem to want. At the risk of making a poor analogy, a good "product" will sell itself.

It can be frustrating, since even when you're not being converted, you're still being judged. The more extroverted and aggressive of that mindset will attempt a direct conversion "because they love you," whereas the more introverted will basically avoid the mess of a direct conflict but hold internal judgments that reflect their views of you as a non-believer. For me, it typically has felt like you're not being interacted with just a person but as a label and they're hoping if they just hold firm to their values while not being infected by yours, "you'll eventually come around."

 

[Mane]

In regards to the people closest to them: If you genuinely believed your loved ones were going to experience a lifetime of suffering unless you convert them, or a happy eternity in the afterlife with complete divine acceptance if you did convert them, would you really avoid it just because they'll feel temporarily uncomfortable or lacking in acceptance while you do so?

In regards to general missionary tendencies: Probably a mix of ego, tradition & social pressures - I imagine there is also social esteem in their communities for successfully converting someone, and probably shaming for people who'd outright avoid it.

 

[Passacaglia]

In addition to the reasons that others have mentioned, I suspect there's an element of "If only everybody would convert to my faith, the world would be such a better place!" in evangelism.

I've also heard that in certain evangelist denominations, young LGBTs will spend many many years evangelizing because so long as they're 'spreading the word,' their families don't expect them to be looking for a husband/wife. Sad, but I find this entirely believable.

I have several experiences that really triggered me to re-evaluate my view of organized religion over the years. I've been disrespected, treated badly, invalidated, and belittled for it. One time was when my husband and I were doing wedding preparations to get married. When a couple we had to meet during the process learned that I believed in a different religion, they asked me if I planned to convert, and when I declined, they asked me why. I gave valid and respectful reasons, and we left it at that for the moment. Maybe half-an-hour later they asked me again if I would consider to convert, and when I declined again, they accused me of being selfish. . .and they were complete strangers to me.

That'd be enough to make my blood boil, right there. I'm guessing they shared your then-fiance's religion?

How not converting to one religion or the other might be selfish is beyond me; all I can think is that they were just throwing words at you...

Another time is actually continuous and spans years. My husband's grandmother is devout to her religion, and she keeps insisting that I convert. I kept telling her no politely and told her the religion that I believed in. I've been dealing with infertility for seven years (an extremely emotional and depressing roller coaster), and she would approach me at the end of each visit when my husband and his family weren't around, and she'd tell me to convert to her religion. I declined, and she told me that I would get pregnant if I converted...implying that that the reason I suffer from infertility is because I don't follow her religion. To me that was psychological warfare, manipulation, and possibly a form of emotional abuse since it happened so often and was of two very important issues to me.

That's terrible, and yeah, I'd say that's a kind of emotional abuse. Sorry you have to deal with that sort of shit. What does your husband say/think about all of this?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

In regards to the people closest to them: If you genuinely believed your loved ones were going to experience a lifetime of suffering unless you convert them, or a happy eternity in the afterlife with complete divine acceptance if you did convert them, would you really avoid it just because they'll feel temporarily uncomfortable or lacking in acceptance while you do so?

Aye, there's the rub. There's actually a certain logic to it. It follows that if one believes that someone else is condemned to eternal suffering, that one has an obligation to do something to attempt to alleviate it.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Because misery loves company.

 

[EJCC]

Because some people like to correct people that they think are wrong. That's why anyone evangelizes any belief, or lack thereof.

Many devout religious people evangelize because they want more people to go to heaven. Many atheists evangelize because they think religion is the root of all evil.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Because some people like to correct people that they think are wrong. That's why anyone evangelizes any belief, or lack thereof.

Many devout religious people evangelize because they want more people to go to heaven. Many atheists evangelize because they think religion is the root of all evil.

I'd say, based on my observations, evil really transcends the theism/atheism debate. People really can be jerks either way.

 

[Lark]

I didn't say that? I merely pointed out that you are criticizing evangelism when you appear to be doing evangelizing. It is illogical to do so.

I knew that's what you thought you were doing but its exactly why I said what I said to you but you didnt understand it. Its alright. There's things I dont understand too. Like why I engage people like yourself online.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I knew that's what you thought you were doing but its exactly why I said what I said to you but you didnt understand it. Its alright. There's things I dont understand too. Like why I engage people like yourself online.

 

[Lark]

There is something fundamentally disrespectful in telling someone else that your religion is better than theirs and that they should convert.

I do believe that you can respectfully disagree with people about matters, I dont much mind if someone does say their religion is better than mine and that I should convert but they have to realise that their feeling that way, their saying that, has no baring at all upon my own seperate religious convictions, thinking and actions. I really dont believe in some sort of uniform thinking or universal muteness being labelled "respect" or "respectfulness", perhaps that's not what you were meaning, it is one of the logical consequences or at the very least possible conclusions.

Not really, since the first is exclusive and judgmental, while the second is inclusive and accepting. The first also claims divine authority, while the second simply looks at our common humanity.

That's interesting, we do not agree, which I am sure is no surprise.

I really should leave things there but the reality is that the LGBT political community, which I'm beginning to decide should not be conflated with the community itself, has no claim to humanity or inclusion anymore than anyone else, particularly given that it is an exclusive group dealing in identity politics, in my experience its very fair to say that the LGBT political community is "accepting only in so far as others are accepting of it", which seems alright until you realise that this means it brooks no opposition or dissension internally or externally. Its at the place other traditions or movements were before their splintering, infighting and eventual dissolution or passage into history. Although like all those other traditions and movements, the remainders and legacies of which abound, they've failed to learn any lesson from the history of those that preceded them. In no small part because they dont believe history matters and its just possible to reinvent lasting change in and off this very minute. Again, like those others before them did too.

As for proselytising, I have had similar experiences as well. The list of religious groups whose members have never even attempted to convert me include: Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Bahai's, Hindus, and Pagans of various traditions. I know quite a few representatives of some of these groups. Bahai's in fact are forbidden to seek converts. You must approach them with interest before they can engage you. I have also heard Hindus and Pagans at times almost discourage converts, telling people of other faiths that they should just be the best [Christian/Muslim/Buddhist/etc] that they can.

I've only experienced it from radical protestants and the LGBT political sympathisers or activists. The experience has been the exact same.

I can understand the idea of having found something so wonderful and helpful in life, that you want to share it with others. There is a respectful way to do this, however, along with lots of disrespectful ways. That is, simply to model the benefits in your own life and, like the Bahai's, wait for the other person to ask. Then, answer with only as much information as they seem to want. At the risk of making a poor analogy, a good "product" will sell itself.

Do you consider that this is the approach that the LGBT movement takes when it seeks to reform legal parameters and social institutions for others aswell as themselves? Do you think that needs to change?

I think the culture wars, of which LGBT is maybe just the most recognisable or prominent example, are very illustrative of the fact that earlier struggles between competiting normative communities to reach a state of co-existence havent taught many lessons. Or that no ones interested in learning from them.

 

[kyuuei]

For the same reasons I insist people stop being morons and get vaccines administered to them. Because I believe it is for the good of the world. It's amazing how the exact same intentions and ideas can translate into widely different things. The whole idea is--the more passive you are about a topic, the less attention the topic has in the world. The things people talk about are the things people will know about, and the things that, subsequently, get action. Even negative press is good press for ideas. The only thing that kills ideas is for them to be forgotten. Kind of impossible to kill religion if people are insisting on it. Because you know at the end of the day it's a numbers game.. someone will hear that same boring, useless, repetitive speech and be 'woken up' by it, take it as a sign, be in a weak state of mind and need help, etc.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

For the same reasons I insist people stop being morons and get vaccines administered to them. Because I believe it is for the good of the world. It's amazing how the exact same intentions and ideas can translate into widely different things. The whole idea is--the more passive you are about a topic, the less attention the topic has in the world. The things people talk about are the things people will know about, and the things that, subsequently, get action. Even negative press is good press for ideas. The only thing that kills ideas is for them to be forgotten. Kind of impossible to kill religion if people are insisting on it. Because you know at the end of the day it's a numbers game.. someone will hear that same boring, useless, repetitive speech and be 'woken up' by it, take it as a sign, be in a weak state of mind and need help, etc.

ISIS is great for the world, isn't it?

 

[Sunflower_Moon]

Do you find that people who force their religion may also sometimes be contradicting themselves? For example, moderate to conservative religious people may come across as valuing people being different, accepting of all others, etc., but then when you get to know them, you find that they actually seem to value conformity rather than any individuality, and may seem not to be accepting of others? Do you feel this may be caused by religion (not while practiced in a more liberal form), culture, politics, or a combination of them?

I don't mean this with the intention that all people who believe in a religion are this way.