[NF] Why Do NFs Apologize So Much?

[Aleksei]

Because hqrmony in relationships to NFs is like order to SJs

Oversimplistic. In both counts. Tsk tsk.

Love your avatar.

 

[Sparrow]

Oh yea I forgot to mention that if I don't say sorry, then it means I think you suck and you deserved it . Lol

 

[mrcockburn]

No, I would say this is reasonable, rather than drunken rambling. This is why it's important to assert yourself early and often, I suppose. And just get good at doing it in a way you're comfortable with. I find that I have a lot of pushback (as mrcockburn describes) whenever I try to assert myself, because I've usually been angry for a very long time before I say anything. It's typically diplomatic, but still. Maybe this is why the INFJ doorslam is something common enough to get its own phrase describing it!

Reactions tend to be bad if people automatically assume and expect you to be submissive.

I'm working on a group project right now for Accounting (which makes no sense - I mean, this is Accounting here. The most anti-social profession on earth!) - I'm the only female. And the other 3 guys are all really good friends with each other.

I had clearly, concisely and politely laid out the agenda from Day 1. One member agreed to my plan, the others I hadn't heard back from. Anyway, so it turned out that they totally fucked up the project that they turned in.

Well, when I reviewed what went wrong, I politely and calmly asked what happened, stated what I thought may have happened, my suggestions to remedy the current situation, and my suggestions to avoid similar problems in the future.

One member flipped his freaking lid - "Stop causing drama, don't act like a martyr, it's not a big deal, you have issues!"

Presumably, they didn't like that a woman, and an "outsider" had the nerve to address any inefficiencies that were taking place.

I responded, and I didn't apologize, because I did nothing wrong. I simply reiterated what we needed to do.

I can see how unreasonable hostility could wear on an NF though.

/rant

 

[RDF]

I agree to a good extent with mrcockburn and mochajava: It's a tough world out there, and you have to choose: Fight or flight. Either push back, or back down.

A lot of people in the world believe the old saying that "the squeaky wheel gets the grease." That is, they believe that if they *can* get a little extra, then it means that they probably *deserved* that extra. So they push, test, etc. to see if they can obtain that little extra something.

As an older NF, I've learned to walk around with a scowl on my face as protective coloring. People who don't know me are genuinely surprised when I turn out to be friendly and amenable. And if I apologize for something, it's usually as part of a refusal: "I wish I could help you out, but I'm sorry, there's nothing I can do for you." In other words, I generally use "I'm sorry" as a euphemism for "no" rather than as a means of yielding or backpedaling.

If it turns out that I'm dead wrong on something, I'll apologize. Nothing wrong with that--that's just normal courtesy. But I don't do the scared bunny rabbit thing and apologize and scamper away just because someone is testing me. I think there's a point where even the most submissive NF should outgrow that.

This is maybe a tangent, but:

Also, some environments are more conducive to one type of attitude or another. When I was in the military, the environment there was all about trash talk and getting in each other's faces and working your way up the pecking order. It took some getting used to for an NF. OTOH later as a translator in a foreign-service type bureaucracy, the atmosphere and language were so hyper-genteel and flowery and apologetic that I had trouble with it even as an NF. In that environment you had to apologize profusely for any perceived inconvenience you might cause to others. I had to study books on diplomatic correspondence in order to get the language down.

So you have to look at environment too--how people were raised, where they work, etc. Some environments/households are more rough-and-tumble and make a game out of mutual challenge and testing. Others are about enforcing harmony at all costs and they regard any discord or dissent as positively dangerous.

As an adult in the working world, I've seen some genteel NTs and some rough-and-tumble NFs. So to some extent it depends on what kind of environment you're used to.

 

[kyuuei]

1. Many things can simply be smoothed over with apologies.. I don't find apologies shameful, or demoralizing, or anything like that.. so if "I'm sorry" works WAY better than trying to explain why I did what I did, or what goes on in my stupid head, I'll usually go with the easier option. (The exception being when it won't be convenient to do so every time in the future.. then I'll press the subject until we iron something out.)
2. Other people find emotionally charged things shameful and worth apologizing for.. you can only hear so many jokes about NFs being illogical, emotionally-instable people until you start to think maybe people really do feel that way.. and then everything you do feels like you play into those things. On a lesser scale, I don't know about males, but females are sometimes socially pressured into being quick to apologize, either from other female interactions or from hard-headed male interactions or a mix of the two.
3. I overthink things.

Combine all of these. They apply to nearly all situations to life in one way, shape, or form. Thus, apologies are widely dispersed.

 

[mochajava]

1. Many things can simply be smoothed over with apologies..

So true. What I dislike the most is when I've finally worked up the nerve to confront someone about something (and politely!) and instead of acting like I'm bringing up something that is bugging me, they start defending, rationalizing and explaining why they did what they did. If you care about the relationship more than you care about being right, or if you care about the other persons' feelings, than an apology is a kind way to move forward. If you would rather be right ("I didn't do anything wrong - why should I apologize?") then you can't use this one method of reaching out.

 

[animenagai]

Sorry I didn't read over everything (see what I did there? :O), but this is what I have to say on the matter:

We dislike conflict in general, so we play it safe. One of the worse things that could happen in my opinion is for someone I really care about to have a full blown fight with me. I don't mind a debate, don't get me wrong, but when feelings are actually hurt... I hate it. So in practice we can be over-apolagetic. I just really don't want to step on any toes, that is, at least with people I care about. This becomes a habit and so the word 'sorry' gets used more than it needs to, even when we know, right at that moment, that we don't need to say it.

 

[Rebe]

I hardly ever apologize. To me, an apology is rather useless. I rather just store the information in my brain and not do it again the next time than apologize about what I have said or done. I only apologize when I have been really bad and even then, it's more of a formality. We are not naturally blunt/brutal people so if you'd like a conversation of such, you will have to encourage us or steer us that way. We will only pick fights that matters to us, if it accomplishes something. For me, my Ne makes it hard to be firm/assertive on a position because even as I am arguing, I am thinking of other possibilities. Unless it is truly important and I have but one opinion, and then I do put up a really good fight. I am not sure specifically what situations you are talking about. I am naturally very polite and in-tuned to others' potential sensitivity, but I am not apologetic about what I say and what I do.

 

[Ginkgo]

Sigh. The one thing I see in common in literally every NF I talk to online or in real life is that, as soon as they come out with a strong reaction to something, as soon as I push back on it (in a nice but firm way), they back-pedal and just seem to fold on me.

(I think Toonie is the only NF I can think of off the top of my head who does not consistently do this... but she always had to be different, you know. )

Sometimes NFs apologize to me just for expressing their viewpoint. My one RL friend apologizes to me for "getting angry" or "raising his voice" -- and somehow I missed his entire debacle. Even his worst outrages don't even equal half of the normal human being's slight glimmer of irritation.

I love y'all to death, NFs are some of my favorite people! Definitely more sufferable than some of the NTJ stuff that goes on.

But I don't understand. Why? I mean, I even love how sensitive NFs are to people in general... but sometimes it gets frustrating, when I want to talk about something or a discussion really needs to be had, or would be beneficial, so I "push" a little bit or just plunge into the conversation -- and instead of matching the push, the NFs just melt away.

Just... Oh, I don't know.

So now... you want them to apologize for apologizing?

 

[NPcomplete]

I rarely apologise because in my mind, I did/said what I did after much thought.

However, when I do apologise it's almost always to assuage my guilt. I don't think I even do it because of the other person, unless they are very close to me. But that might just mean that I feel even more guilt so I have to apologise more profusely.

 

[Totenkindly]

So now... you want them to apologize for apologizing?

I'd rather have people apologize for responding to a post I made four years ago and didn't even remember existed.

... but actually, no apology necessary. I just wanted to understand why they do it.

NFs are fine just the way they are. They're not NTs, there's no reason they need to be NTs. I think in many cases, they just really don't care to argue. When I argue with NFs, I often feel like I'm being cruel by "pushing my values on them." I'd rather not be cruel. There are plenty of NTs to argue with without getting the NFs involved.

It's not a matter of them being NTs.

It's a matter of dealing with people, and actually, now, if we look at it, some strategies if overused can actually created hardship for the person and the other people they deal with. It's not like NTs shouldn't apologize in some situations, when it makes sense and is actually beneficial to everyone; meanwhile, NFs don't need to apologize for everything.

It has nothing to do with a judgment over "what a type should be," it's about doing what is most beneficial in a given situation.

... but... then again.. people are who they are. So.... now what?

 

[Forever]

Heh. Last post was on my 18th birthday. God I feel so old.

I'm the enemy of Typology Central. I want to say sorry again to all of you.

I just don't get people I guess.

 

[Elegiac]

I have this problem.... I say sorry all the time... :/

 

[Hiraeth]

Not an NF, but I'm the type who says sorry all the time. I have a tendency to say things that offend people without realizing it, so I end up overusing the term because I get paranoid if people do somehow take offense to what I say. Also, I can't hold grudges at all, so I end up apologizing whether it was my own wrongdoing or not in order to try and reconcile anything that went wrong between me and another person. I am a pretty forgiving person in general and I think life is just too short to be angry over petty matters.

 

[❀༺♥༻ℭ𝔞𝔢𝔩𝔦𝔞_𝔄𝔦𝔰𝔩𝔦𝔫𝔤༺♥༻❀༺]

Guilty here, I realize it can be annoying so I try not to...but at the same time I don't like hurting people. If I think I've offended/hurt you, or I'm being a bother, or I feel I've become a burden, I apologize for it. I guess it's just a weird way of me saying I intended them no harm or inconvenience whatsoever, & I am sincerely sorry when I say it, I'm not just trying to be a stuck record. And to me it's better than assuming I can say/do whatever without regard for someone else, I'd hate to do that.

 

[Sacrophagus]

I don't see it as a problem at all, in fact, I learned how to appreciate it over the years.

People like @Starry for example apologize and apologize, but it stems from their consideration for you, and they back that up by their deeds, like granting others the gift of their time, assist and help, and I don't see that as a weakness.

Their apology is not the big problem. Our reaction is.

Are we going to accept their apology or make them feel guilty even more? Are we going to let them wallow in thoughts of incompetence and low self-esteem or are we going to tell them there's nothing to apologize for when they're doing their best and consequently give them less reasons to apologize for?
That's the turning point.

 

[Starry]

I don't see it as a problem at all, in fact, I learned how to appreciate it over the years.

People like @Starry for example apologize and apologize, but it stems from their consideration for you, and they back that up by their deeds, like granting others the gift of their time, assist and help, and I don't see that as a weakness.

Their apology is not the big problem. Our reaction is.

Are we going to accept their apology or make them feel guilty even more? Are we going to let them wallow in thoughts of incompetence and low self-esteem or are we going to tell them there's nothing to apologize for when they're doing their best and consequently give them less reasons to apologize for?
That's the turning point.

I was just made stronger by this post. Thank you so much for creating it and for using your observations of me as an example as I feel I can learn as much from your insights as I do from your attitude and approach to life.

 

[Dreamer]

I apologize because I'm highly aware, most the time, of where I've misstepped or failed to meet my own standards within this criterion of competency when it comes to my interactions with others. Many times the people I'm apologizing to hadn't even considered my misstep as anything to really be for sorry for, and I've learned that people in general, so long as you are making a genuine effort not to repeat the same errors over and over, are very forgiving over minor to moderate missteps.

I'm forgiving and honestly, probably allow more than I should at times, but it's ultimately, any time I've done something where I personally, would have issue or notice something, is when I apologize. The very simple guide of "treat others as you wish to be treated" is very apparent in my dealings with others.

I'm also just used to screwing things up since childhood, thank you ADHD, so before I became aware of my own missteps, others around me were always reminding me and pointing out of where I did, and at times, shamed me for it. Sucked at the time being me, but hey, that also meant those times were never forgotten

I don't think apologizing, even profusely, is an NF thing, or type related, but I feel it could influence what areas you are made aware of in your shortcomings, and those areas is where one may apologize more readily for. Since Feeling types place more focus on their interactions with people in general, than Thinkers, social dynamics, including feeling a need to apologize, makes sense to me. So...alright, I guess in this light, it could be type related? but not as directly so if that makes sense.

 

[Qlip]

I actually don't apologize much, unless I do believe I did something damagingly wrong. I am highly aware of how people respond to my words and actions, and it is incredibly wearing that you can't move through the world without offending or hurting people. But at some point an NF has to pick a hill, and stick a flag in it, no apologies. It's a crowded place.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

because they burn toast and forget to put the toilet seat down, which drives their SJ friends and spouses mad.