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Why Believe?

Proctor

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in a way, religion feels kind of like a cop out to me... like you are handing over responsibility for your lifetime tally board of good and bad to a source who is willing to wipe it clean if you ask really nicely. kind of like my feelings about AA... if I hand things over to a higher power, I'm no longer taking responsibility for my own actions and what sort of person does that make me? :huh:

I find that particular policy of AA to be disgusting. If you go to a meeting, you're there to find help, not to get religious belief forced upon you. It's perfectly fine if you believe your faith in god helps in overcoming you addiction, but it shouldn't be part of the service. It's a very exclusionary practice and just as abhorrent as forcing religious folks to give up their faith in order to join AA.
 

Poki

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Maybe because what you're suggesting is a contradiction in terms. If they find out they're wrong that means there's some sort of afterlife, but if they're wrong it means there can't be an afterlife.

From what I hear the internet is very touchy about logical fallacies.

I was also more in reference to the fact that gays are forbidden so they will not go to heaven, yet other say god welcomes everyone and forgives. Imagine the hate when "heaven" is no different from Earth because it contains all the same people or worse because people's dreams are shattered. Or when someone doesn't end up in heaven due to gay and people in heaven lose all faith in god.
 

Lark

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Like I posted on facebook...all these religious people are gonna pissed when they die and realize they are wrong. Amazingly I only got 2 likes...lol. I never said who was wrong or why or anything. Just with so many christians who believe so many different things not all of them can be right.

I can't say that I believe or disbelieve, but I can say I don't have faith in it. My biggest issue is with how it screws with peoples head. How it causes anyone to be able to rationalize anything they want.

Poki if there is no existence post death then there's no possibility to be pissed.

If you dont see reason for religosity in this life you wont see it in any other. By which I dont mean that there are not others.
 

Lark

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I was also more in reference to the fact that gays are forbidden so they will not go to heaven, yet other say god welcomes everyone and forgives. Imagine the hate when "heaven" is no different from Earth because it contains all the same people or worse because people's dreams are shattered. Or when someone doesn't end up in heaven due to gay and people in heaven lose all faith in god.

If you consider the one time that Jesus, if you want to use a Christian/Abraham frame of reference, spoke about that, when he was questioned as to if a woman married and remarried when her husbands died with which would she be reunited after death (there were atheists in Jesus day too), he said those things did not matter, meaning the state of being was entirely different.
 

Poki

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Poki if there is no existence post death then there's no possibility to be pissed.

If you dont see reason for religosity in this life you wont see it in any other. By which I dont mean that there are not others.

Believing in religion over nothing is nothing more then an educated guess on either side.

If people can go from not believing to be leaving in a single lifetime, why not across lifes?

I believe there is a single truth, we just don't know it
 

Poki

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If you consider the one time that Jesus, if you want to use a Christian/Abraham frame of reference, spoke about that, when he was questioned as to if a woman married and remarried when her husbands died with which would she be reunited after death (there were atheists in Jesus day too), he said those things did not matter, meaning the state of being was entirely different.

Because religious people in general apply that logic in practice.:doh:
 

Amargith

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I wanted to believe for a long time (as in, I was drawn to mythology and fairy tales and researching religion, and felt it might satiate an urge inside) but grew up in an environment that glorified Science (ironically, Science became a god, in a way), and religion was pretty much ridiculed. Tbh, the Christianity taught at school didn't exactly make it enticing to become religious either.

Even as an adult, when I decided to explore religion more, I found it hard. Every time I moved in the direction of religion, my brain second-guessed me, as I was taught, and told me to stop being silly.

It wasn't until pretty recently, that I got why people can benefit from and actively seek religion - and how it's in no way incompatible with a science or critical thinking.

In essence, religion allows you to connect. Think of how much one can enjoy hanging out with of a good friend, family members at a great gathering, etc. It's the ambiance, the vibe, dare one even say...aura, which gets generated that we enjoy so.

Religion is a tool that allows you to do the same with the world, pretty much. All the people there, but - in my case as a pagan - also the plants, animals, the planet itself, even your own body and the cells that make it up. And of course, the dead ( and your ancestors), nature spirits, and all the other mythological creatures that people have told stories about for eons. Many of them were given form by the human brain trying to interpret that connection it feels through religion - often through a specific cultural/community lens. The same is true for God(s).

This gives you that feeling of being part of a tribe, called the Universe. It's the insight that we're all connected. You'll hear this as a favourite tune in just about any big religion to talk about in (insert sacred space). And it allows you to feel supported, embraced and filled with purpose. It's knowing you are never truly alone, and you are a part of something much larger than you could possibly fathom.

Many atheists/scholars I know feel the same way about the wonders of space, the universe etc, in a scientific way, ime. And in that respect, science and religion have more in common than their followers are often willing to admit. And are certainly compatible, when each side respects the other. Think of it as appreciating a tree for 'art' and the feeling it can inspire vs what a tree is,does and how it works. Now, connect with the tree for a holistic view of who this tree is and how it could inspire you with its personality, abilities, wisdom and life lessons (compare a birch vs an oak, for example), for a spiritual look at the same subject.

It is dismissing or pedestaling one of these over the others, and arguing against one by using the parameters of another that causes so much confusion and misunderstanding on this topic. All three are valuable ways of looking at the tree and learning from it.


When at it's best, this connection is what allows religion to inspire empathy beyond your kin and those you know, generosity, confidence - it gives one a steady footing and a place to belong. A family, of sorts. It inspires self-reflection, self-awareness and a sense of purpose - and as a result, a certain self-love, healthy pride and confidence. Which then positively affects those you influence in your life. And in that way, it can very much inspire personal growth as well as a sense of community that benefits everyone involved.

In short, it can bring out the best in people.

That said, religion is an imperfect tool to describe something that is hard to put into words but seems to be a shared experience for many people. Not everyone is equally adept at using it. And, of course, tools can be abused, manipulated and used to destroy all they are capable of creating.

Think letter of the law vs spirit of the law.





Edit: :thinking:

I think that the best thing to compare it to as it is similar to that, is Love. It's abstract, nobody can prove it exists, science explains it as neuro chemicals firing in your brain, but it's inspired our entire species to become lyrical and prolific in an attempt to describe just how it makes us feel. It connects us to another like nothing else, and our existence just seems to come into focus with that special someone in our lives. And we are relentless in the pursuit of that connection

While Lust very much inspires the same kind of lyrical, passionate insanity, with much of the same brain chemicals in the mix, it is a very different beast. When someone who hasn't experienced love before asks someone who has what it is like, the answer almost invariably is 'you'll know it when you feel it.' - infuriating as that is.

But nobody really questions the validity of love, or its existence. Or for that matter, the questing for said love in your life. Or the usefulness/need for it in your life - despite all the heart ache, pain and misery it can cause. Or the abuse that happens in the name of Love.

Unlike the concept of Spirituality and God.

One can choose to remain celibate and unwed/unattached (and many who are devoted to God do so - one could wonder if that's because they find that the spiritual connection fulfils them enough that they don't need that material one?), but often they're viewed as 'missing out'.

Is the same true for those refusing to quest for a spiritual connection?
 

Poki

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I have tried to believe several times. But I had issues finding a church that matcheddar my belief...lol. I refuse to go to a judgemental, opinionated, close minded church. One that I have to be a certain way or think a certain thing or i am not accepted.
 

Mustafa

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In my arabic school where they taught religion they sad: there are three reasons leading to Atheism or disbelief. 1 Individual 2. Social 3. Suggestible

1. Because of desire to pleasure. Hedonism maybe.
2. Like the church in medival ages and a part of the islamic world are doing today, the religious leaders and acquaintances repell us from God. By their shaming actions.
3. Communists for examples which kind of makes the middle ground between religious and Atheists, they 'speculate' too much and suggest and overwhelm. Like when destroying body cells but wthout buildng them up.

I believe religion is important so man can live with integrity because without it the cells would be broken without someone to lift us or heal us. Why are healers or INFPs spiritual?
 

Lark

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Believing in religion over nothing is nothing more then an educated guess on either side.

If people can go from not believing to be leaving in a single lifetime, why not across lifes?

I believe there is a single truth, we just don't know it

God is a mystery. Its probably not what you meant.

Religion may be an educated guess, I think its more than that but it takes a perspective which looks at historical time and something on the scale of emergent consciousness, which are long ass times, to really appreciate what I'm talking about.

- - - Updated - - -

Because religious people in general apply that logic in practice.:doh:

Well, its popular these days to represent religion at its worst as opposed to at its best.

I dont know why that's so.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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2. Like the church in medival ages and a part of the islamic world are doing today, the religious leaders and acquaintances repell us from God. By their shaming actions.


I believe religion is important so man can live with integrity because without it the cells would be broken without someone to lift us or heal us.

I like the point you make with with your first paragraph. It is easy to sit in judgement and everyone does judge to an extent. I do think condemnation is where people get in trouble. Condemnation is a shut door. It leaves no room for enlightenment or growth.

I think religion does give people a sense of living with integrity. I know what you mean. It perhaps enhances or supports what is already a given - which is how to treat others with kindness.

On a tangent of my own, I would like to say, I tread lightly here because I know atheists who are loving and moral people. (And I'm not saying you are saying this [MENTION=26151]Mustafa[/MENTION]. This is a separate point I would like to make).

To say there is a correlation between not having faith and lacking morality is perhaps just as short sighted as a non-believer correlating having faith and lacking intelligence.
 

Mustafa

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I like the point you make with with your first paragraph. It is easy to sit in judgement and everyone does judge to an extent. I do think condemnation is where people get in trouble. Condemnation is a shut door. It leaves no room for enlightenment or growth.

I think religion does give people a sense of living with integrity. I know what you mean. It perhaps enhances or supports what is already a given - which is how to treat others with kindness.

On a tangent of my own, I would like to say, I tread lightly here because I know atheists who are loving and moral people. (And I'm not saying you are saying this [MENTION=26151]Mustafa[/MENTION]. This is a separate point I would like to make).

To say there is a correlation between not having faith and lacking morality is perhaps just as short sighted as a non-believer correlating having faith and lacking intelligence.

Imam Ali said, “Know that people are of two types: they are either your brothers in religion or your equals in creation.” (Nahjul Balagha, Sermon #53)

These words summarize the philosophy behind the government of Imam Ali. The leadership of the Imam was centered on the religion as one and the human being as the other. In reality, both cores imply the other, and they complete one another
 

Coriolis

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Many atheists/scholars I know feel the same way about the wonders of space, the universe etc, in a scientific way, ime. And in that respect, science and religion have more in common than their followers are often willing to admit. And are certainly compatible, when each side respects the other. Think of it as appreciating a tree for 'art' and the feeling it can inspire vs what a tree is,does and how it works. Now, connect with the tree for a holistic view of who this tree is and how it could inspire you with its personality, abilities, wisdom and life lessons (compare a birch vs an oak, for example), for a spiritual look at the same subject.

It is dismissing or pedestaling one of these over the others, and arguing against one by using the parameters of another that causes so much confusion and misunderstanding on this topic. All three are valuable ways of looking at the tree and learning from it.
As a scientist and a pagan this comes close to my own perspective. We can encounter and experience creation on many levels, no one of which provides the complete picture.

I have tried to believe several times. But I had issues finding a church that matcheddar my belief...lol. I refuse to go to a judgemental, opinionated, close minded church. One that I have to be a certain way or think a certain thing or i am not accepted.
You don't need a church to have faith in something spiritual, to study it, or to act on it. Religion and spirituality are related, but hardly the same.

Well, its popular these days to represent religion at its worst as opposed to at its best.

I dont know why that's so.
Probably because it is allowed. Compared with previous ages, people are less likely to suffer negative consequences or outright persecution for showing religion, or any specific religion, in a negative light.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I think people need something to keep them going, but I don't think it needs to be supernatural. You have to have a reason for living, or you may as well be dead, as Camus would say.

I sometimes do think there is an inherent order to things.
 

Dreamer

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I think people need something to keep them going, but I don't think it needs to be supernatural. You have to have a reason for living, or you may as well be dead, as Camus would say.

I sometimes do think there is an inherent order to things.

I was basically just going to post something like this, but then I saw your comment.

And what I've always thought about life, is that it isn't just some time to throw away then die. There's a purpose for all of us, there has to be some drive that keeps us moving. Whether that's religion, some basic belief in a higher power, or even purely for economic and hedonistic gain. I don't know why humans would've developed such advanced brains if packs of wolves or dolphins can organize themselves just fine without also worrying about existentialism and consciousness.
 

Hawthorne

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Whatever it takes to authenticate one's existence. Falling in love with pretty words of wonder and sagas of greater purpose are simply convenient ways to do so.

Personally, I enjoy my insignificance. Makes me feel all tingly and free~

:spindance:
 
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Arguing with a believer is like boxing with an inflatable punching clown; no matter how many times the believer gets knocked down, he pops right back up. Because of the very nature of human psychology, no amount of logic can keep the believer's beliefs down; only he can allow them to deflate.

The problem is that 1st of all, all religions, but let's say the world itself is totally corrupted.

So instead of trusting and trying to see some truths in religions, free spirited people immediately say _to protect themselves_

"Oh my god (let's play with words:D) X is a believer,

so this guy/ this poor lady is far too emotional and illogical, he has founded that to save him/her from being so weak !

:wtf:

I don't wanna take part of those who believe neither will I do it for those who don't believe in a spiritual world or a specific religion.

I thing this subject is an intimate one, and not a "logical" one (I view most subjects considering the individual's well-being and not objective truths),

as the one of love, sex, or whatever as, 1st of all, let's note that many SX subtype (like me) are trying to commit themselves with an invisible thread ,

no to have our heads hung under the ceiling, but, on the contrary, to rise against bullshit and lack of freedom.


I could write longer but I would write a full chapter so I have to come to a conclusion :

Believing is not to follow some logical books or close my mind or be blind on some points that would make my ego happy with itself.

If I have choosen to believe, it is because I have noticed people arround me and in the world often lack hope, knowledge about their deep down (and here I'm not meaning under the belt...)

desires and inner-self. Believe is all the contrary of being egoistical, or being too generous with others. Believing is believing in oneself, respecting our freedom,

and thus our limits too whatever or whoever we are dealing with, meditating with one's soul, reaching consciousness

and following one personal path, observing humans' bullshits and trying to understand them, seeing the ignorance of people but also believing in human strenghts.


It is 1st of all tring to think, feel and see the world around us without all useless mental bounderies, fears, and opening oneself to different vibes, energies and human thoughts.

It is listening to ourselves, not submissing to any invisible god or goddess, but trully connecting to our inner (then invisible) strenghts.
 

Mustafa

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I think people need something to keep them going, but I don't think it needs to be supernatural. You have to have a reason for living, or you may as well be dead, as Camus would say.

I sometimes do think there is an inherent order to things.
Supernatural is old. I was suprised to know that the logical islamic definition of "human" is a 0 speaking (and structured) 1 body (object) 2 growing 3 moving (unlike trees and rocks) 4 by will. An animal like DOG is the opposite of GOD and humans are in the middle. And the choise is ours. If you disobey the laws (the real ones) noone is going to kick you to hell but you will go there alone/by yourself. My imam emphasized that i am an animal, which is normally understood as insult.
 
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