[NT] Who's more close-minded: NTJs or NTPS?

[Poki]

maybe we are saying the same thing. What you are saying makes sense... however...



And it has been mentioned before that Ni is like Si, also logical and structured based, like building a road map into the future.

Yes, with focus on itself, not the logic. Logic is just used as supporting evidence, nothing more. Reminds me of this



Ni/Si is what they are, logic is what they see

 

[anticlimatic]

This is generally true. The resistance on the part of INTJs that people seem to be describing comes from the fact that getting us to change our minds requires sound evidence and/or reasoning, something that seems beyond the capability or at least the intentions of many folks.

I hear this a lot from INTJs as part of their justification rhetoric as to why they are such perfect processors of logic and reason. Unfortunately for them (but more unfortunately for those of us that have to deal with them), it doesn't pertain to anything the INTJ has made a tert-Fi value judgement on, which is pretty much anything involving them, their lifestyle, and their immediate environment. Only abstract concepts that they have no personal attachment to might be susceptible to change in the face of sound data and reasoning, a demographic of thought with a very thin margin.

I find them to be the least rational of the rationals; a disguise of thoughtful meticulousness that is actually just rampant paranoia hidden by clenched fists.

 

[grey_beard]

This is generally true. The resistance on the part of INTJs that people seem to be describing comes from the fact that getting us to change our minds requires sound evidence and/or reasoning, something that seems beyond the capability or at least the intentions of many folks. I at least will not abandon my position just because you ask me to, or tell me I should, or tell me it's wrong. You need to show me what is wrong with it. Then I will either agree outright, or tell you I need to think about it some more, which I will then do.

(Thunderous applause.)

Exactly. You can't get an INTJ to change their mind merely by saying "You're wrong" or (even worse) "Here's what the crowd believes."
In fact, the INTJ "close-mindedness" is a defense against idiocy: their survival filters, as it were.

The best way to get the INTJ to perk up and listen is to say: "Here's some additional relevant information. What conclusions can you draw?"

 

[Coriolis]

I hear this a lot from INTJs as part of their justification rhetoric as to why they are such perfect processors of logic and reason. Unfortunately for them (but more unfortunately for those of us that have to deal with them), it doesn't pertain to anything the INTJ has made a tert-Fi value judgement on, which is pretty much anything involving them, their lifestyle, and there immediate environment. Only abstract concepts that they have no personal attachment to might be susceptible to change in the face of sound data and reasoning, a demographic of thought with a very thin margin.

I find them to be the least rational of the rationals; a disguise of thoughtful meticulousness that is actually just rampant paranoia hidden by clenched fists.

Then you have had the misfortune to associate with some semi-functional INTJs. Fi value judgments do lie at the root of actual decisions, since it is usually our values that tell us what is important to us and what our priorities are. Logic and facts are important tools in getting us to those goals though. An INTJ who ignores input from others that reveals flaws in his/her methodology or shows a better way to accomplish something is not clinging blindly to Fi values, but rather betraying them.

Also, do not underestimate the significance to an INTJ of those "abstract concepts without personal attachment". You might be surprised how much the results of such discussions can feed in to some rather practical decisions. The other person in the conversation just won't know about it, though, since it provides just one piece of a much larger puzzle that is otherwise out of view.

Exactly. You can't get an INTJ to change their mind merely by saying "You're wrong" or (even worse) "Here's what the crowd believes."
In fact, the INTJ "close-mindedness" is a defense against idiocy: their survival filters, as it were.

That old adage of being able to entertain an idea without accepting it comes to mind.

 

[anticlimatic]

Then you have had the misfortune to associate with some semi-functional INTJs.

Semi-functional is exactly how I would describe 95% of the INTJs I've known, yes.