[ISTJ] When ISTJ goes wrong

[substitute]

I would speculate Si and Fe are the two most confirming functions. That would make either the ESFJ type or ISFJ type most affected by their environment. I simply cannot see a reason why ISTJs would be more affected by their environment than these two types.

Not 'more', but possibly 'as', due to the Si needing stability and the Te needing 'correctness'. There's a part in a French movie that reminds me a lot of what I think is a side-effect of the Si-Te partnership:

Père Leon: What's your name?
Chouchou (a man): Chouchou
Frère Jean: [giggles and sneers]
Chouchou: [upset, self-conscious, embarrassed]
Père Leon: Oh don't mind him, he just needs things to be... arbitrarily correct.

Doesn't translate quite so well into English, but I hope you see the point. The Frère Jean character is very much ISTJ, and needs things in the environment around him to be stable and 'arbitrarily correct' - that is, correct as he defines the term, according to his prior experience, no matter how limited or dubious.

And he needs to be seen as Always Being Right. Dave and Adam really can't stand it if they're proven to be wrong about something, or if something they say confidently believing it to be the One Correct Answer, is conclusively shown to be wrong - they both just fall to pieces, totally embarrassed and ashamed and they usually leave the room as soon as face allows it and go beat themselves up in another room. And they're both TERRIBLE losers at things like Scrabble, and absolutely absurdly competitive with them. Like Dave will actually spend ages taking his turn when he's playing against my 8 year old daughter, because he NEEDS not just to beat her but to THRASH her. He can't even 'let her win', even though he can't seriously believe that anyone questions the fact that he's capable of beating her.

So that's how I think that Si-Te can be just as strongly affected by their environment as Si-Fe.

 

[Splittet]

Not 'more', but possibly 'as', due to the Si needing stability and the Te needing 'correctness'.

[...]

So that's how I think that Si-Te can be just as strongly affected by their environment as Si-Fe.

Can be, sure, but on average, I highly doubt it ... But anyhow this all comes down to definition. What do we think of as being "affected by environment", I guess we might see that a bit differently.

 

[substitute]

Can be, sure, but on average, I highly doubt it ... But anyhow this all comes down to definition. What do we think of as being "affected by environment", I guess we might see that a bit differently.

True... I'm thinking of both human and non-human elements. I suppose I'm thinking that the Te pedantry and perfectionism is a sort of Thinking equivalent to the Fe insistence on everyone/thing being happy and cheerful and 'nice'...? Te is just as 'hurt' by people being (or seeing him as) inaccurate/slovenly as the Fe is by people being 'mean' or seeing them as mean.

 

[wildcat]

Sorry, but the theory is not exactly obvious to me … What are your arguments for it?

Same goes for:



Aren’t extroverts on average more affected by the environment than introverts? And what makes ISTJs more affected by environment than ISFJs? As far as secondary functions go, I would argue Fe is far more confirming in nature than Te …

I do not see you can separate the MBTI of general psychology.

According to Eysenck the dichotomy of E is impulsion and activity.
Within the MBTI P and J highly correlate with impulsion and activity, respectively.
P and J are the opposite poles within the E continuum.

It would be much too simple and even incorrect to say EP corresponds with impulsion and EJ with activity.

The poles are not the continuum. E is not J + P but the continuum between J and P.

What if you are all J but have no adequate P: are you then an extravert? Does activity function without impulsion?

Extraverts may have one side dominant, but they need both.
Impulsivity is the prerequisite of activity.

An extreme ISTJ has no functioning Ne. Therefore he needs discipline. He succeeds in an environment where he is the recipient of direct orders. Then the responsibility is not his.

The ISFJ on the other hand does not need direct orders. Social pressure is enough. What people may think of her if she does not go to work and clean her room?

The extraverts or other kind of introverts do not need the will of others. They are endowed with the will or shame = their activity is functioning.

 

[wildcat]

I had an ISTJ friend, a school mate.
He followed me everywhere.

He was a dedicated young Communist. He saw forward to the day when he could vote.
To be there for the cause.

He liked to have a multitude of books hanging about his room. On display.
He had a wardrobe full of clothes. He liked to show them.
He could not afford to buy anything.

One day they got him. A police officer came to his home. He was a decent chap. They did not inform the school.

After school he went to work in a shop. There he found another friend, a T.P.

His mother died. He came to see me after the funeral.
He confessed.
He said: I know you do not like it, but I wept there by the coffin.. I could not help it.
His eyes said: Please forgive me.

He never had a girl friend. I was surprised when one day, years later, he came to see me with a girl in a tow.

She was a sprightly young thing, an ESFJ.
A solid member of the Agrarian Party.
She announced they were going to get married immediately.

After the wedding I called him.
He said he voted for the Agrarian Party.
He said: Do not call me. I call you.
But he did not call.

So one day I called him.
The wife answered the phone. She said: My husband is not coming to the phone.

I ran into his other friend, T.P.
He said: I called our friend but the wife said he is not coming to the phone.

I met the husband in the train. When he saw me, he panicked. He left the compartment and walked to the other end of the train. I think he went to the lavatory to hide, because I could not find him.

He had found happiness.
It was quite unnecessary to be shamefaced about it.

 

[GirlAmerica]

PTypes - Correspondence of PTypes, Keirsey, Enneagram, Psychiatric, and Astrological Types

This link is interesting, cooresponding personality types/mental health issues...it has proven helpful in the past.

 

[GirlAmerica]

I also know a number of ISTJ men who stay in very bad unhappy marriages.

One I know sites having children as the reason for staying.

 

[Helfeather]

I can related to your friends.

I, myself, as a weak ISTJ, could imagine myself living their lives. It's a very simple, safe, and low-key life.

ISTJs are only duty-fillers when they see the work as WORTH completing, especially if there is a desirable reward or dire consequence. When they do, they go to no ends to finish it. They need to be properly motivated.

I am guessing that your friends have not found the -purpose- they are seeking. They are very happy with their safe lives (according to themselves) right now. They don't like changing their lifestyle for the fear of hardship.

Once they do, expect them to progress at an alarming rate. They need a 'trigger'. Help them.

 

[substitute]

I am guessing that your friends have not found the -purpose- they are seeking. They are very happy with their safe lives (according to themselves) right now. They don't like changing their lifestyle for the fear of hardship.

Once they do, expect them to progress at an alarming rate. They need a 'trigger'. Help them.

You're right - I agree, but it's just trying to find that trigger. I've been trying everything for over ten years now, everything I can think of (and ENTP's can think of A LOT! lol), but it's like he's this big fat rock, that just sits there, and all my best efforts, all my attempts, the things I do to try and bring him out, to try and motivate him or get a response - it's like I'm standing there throwing custard pies at this great rock, and each one just splats against it and runs down the surface and onto the ground impotently, nothing seems to penetrate, nothing gets through, and he doesn't budge. I'm about at my wits' end as to what on earth it's going to take to get through to him.

He often said in the past "I want to get better and change, and become a tougher person that can handle life's complications. But I want to get there without all the effort and pain that's involved." And I assumed because of the obvious absurdity of that statement that he was either joking deadpan (he does that a lot), or that he was speaking rhetorically, sorta knowing that it wasn't possible but just saying it like I might say "I want to win the lotto and get a holiday home in the Bahamas". But in the past year it's become clear that he actually means that - and thinks that it's possible, and he refuses to do anything until he finds this 'perfect way', this 'painless way' of getting to a place that we all know can't be reached without pain. And because of course no such way exists, he just never progresses.

 

[INTJMom]

Yeah I have asked them why they do it and they both give the same answer "I'm comfortable the way I am, I'm used to it, I don't want to change".

When I ask them why they chose to be that way in the first place, before it became 'familiar', Adam says because with his dad not around any more he felt free to let himself go. Dave says something similar - that he reached a point where he was actually sectioned and while he was in the nuthouse he realised he'd wasted his time trying to please his father and that it was an impossible task, that he'd been living with guilt for 'failing' constantly and become obsessed with it. In his words, "So I dumped all the guilt, and it set me free" - free to be a lazy, selfish slob, apparently... He doesn't see that what he thinks is him "being free" is actually gradually killing him and wasting his life - he doesn't see that it's him he's hurting, no matter how much I try to point it out.

I think both of them have a mental age still of about 18. I mean they still bitch about "Why should I have to tie my hair back and wear a tie at work?" They think they should be allowed to "be individuals" at work and turn up looking like bums.

You know what, what you're saying right here reminds me of something I read in Naomi L. Quenk's book, Beside Ourselves, the other day. I wasn't reading about ISTJs but the behavior in mid-life, if they fail to mature in a positive direction can take some real negative turns. There might be a key to some understanding in her book. Now I'm curious. I'll have to go look.

 

[INTJMom]

Naomi Quenk says that in midlife if an ISTJ doesn't progress positively toward integrating their extraverted intuition along with their tertiary feeling, they can become a more exaggerated version of themselves.

"They may develop rigid rules and unvarying routines, insisting that everyone else conform to their way of doing things."

It's hard to stand by and watch that, isn't it?

If these ISTJs can develop their inferior and tertiary more, they can become better balanced people who will enjoy their families more and who will be enjoyed more by their family and friends.

 

[INTJMom]

In Do What You Are the authors have a list of things for you to do to develop your other functions.

I can't excerpt it here because of their copyright, but I will PM it to you.
Maybe it will give you some ideas which might help,
though it seems like you've tried an awful lot already.

 

[substitute]

In Do What You Are the authors have a list of things for you to do to develop your other functions.

I can't excerpt it here because of their copyright, but I will PM it to you.
Maybe it will give you some ideas which might help,
though it seems like you've tried an awful lot already.

THanks for those and thanks for the PM. Much appreciated

I'm mulling it all over now...

 

[TaylorS]

But many of the Gen X and younger ISTJs I know seem to fall in a different category when externally at least they appear differently. On the surface, they are much more casual about things. One thing I noticed in many of them is a love for whimsical/droll humor, or anti-establishment humor. Many of them actually love cartoons (Pinky and the Brain, Warner Brothers, Ren and Stimpy, etc. Most do not seem to like Spongebob much, but perhaps he's a little too goofy/NF for them...) And they get very much into popular video games and can blow off a great deal of time doing unproductive entertainment-oriented things.

Still, they often have conservative values inside, in terms of their faith and their political beliefs. They still often will get very vehement and judgmental of others who violate their religious and political beliefs ("Of course God is real, gays are disgusting and a violation of the natural order, why should we support people who are poor probably because they did not plan well enough in their youth, let's be very tough on crime and maintain capital punishment regardless of circumstances, etc.")

I have an ISTJ co-worker that is right on the edge of the Baby Boom and Generation X who fits that very well. He is laid back and has that "whimsical/droll" sense of humor (he always like to mock is own "anal-retentiveness"), but he is also a conservative Baptist who sends his son to a religious private school.

 

[CzeCze]

My Answer

Normally I don't jump the gun like this, but I'm skipping over all other responses just to say -- wth? I was fascinated by your description of these people and thought perhaps you were making this up or pulled it out of a book, because speaking for myself, I have not interacted much with anyone with this level of dysfunction.

Seriously? Your friends are ill and need professional help.

This goes way beyond personality typing, mental illness trumps MBTI. Hands down. Perhaps people with the combination of disorders/problems your friends have will always test as ISTJ -- but it is NOT 'true' ISTJ. Personality is a gauge of how your ego interacts with the rest of the world, once that mechanism is damaged and breaks down all bets are off. Again, not about MBTI and all about mental illness.

I am frankly kind of shocked that your friends have not had state or family intervention. And I find it really sad that people who THINK they are self-sufficient and capable are allowed to go on living like that.

I'm not jumping on you or your friends or passing a moral or value judgement, but giving a very honest objective POV. Your friends have mental health issues and they need professional help. They are clearly unable to be functional members of society. I'm honestly frightened for the first friend you mentioned if you were to no longer be in his life. You are his last tether to the real world.

I have only seen fleeting shots of families trying to deal with a mentally ill family member who gets progressively more out of touch with society and then reality. It's really painful and difficult and sometimes dangerous because again, the person with illness has no rational understanding of their illness (this is in the case of scizophrenia) and often refuses help as they get deeper and darker into their illness.

I'm not really sure what else to say, other than your description of your friends and their situation seemed so detached and casual. I understand you would write it very matter of fact so we could 'see' the situation, but I almost think because you are so close to the people and have known them for a while that the enormity of the illness doesn't strike you the way it does me -- a stranger and 3rd party observer.

Because it REALLY strikes me as being very serious and warranting intervention.

 

[substitute]

Seriously? Your friends are ill and need professional help....

I am frankly kind of shocked that your friends have not had state or family intervention. And I find it really sad that people who THINK they are self-sufficient and capable are allowed to go on living like that.

If you'd read the rest of the thread, you'd have seen that I've already explained that the guy has been inside a nut ward but, due to the inefficiency of the British National Health Service, was discharged despite not feeling ready himself, because the priority has to be given to patients who are dangerous either to the public or themselves, in a physical type of way. He doesn't think he's self-sufficient and neither does anyone else, but there's nowhere he can get help. Social Services aren't interested (I've tried, believe me). The most he can get his regular sessions with a shrink, which he self-sabotages all the time by failing to attend appointments (because he just won't get out of bed).

He has already been diagnosed with OCD and depression and is on so many meds he rattles when he walks. However, knowing him very well and for many years as I do, I also know that the symptoms he now suffers began way back before they reached 'critical mass', in his own tendencies and ways of thinking, which are very much ISTJ, and it's my belief that it's these tendencies, which still exist, which constitute a large part of why he doesn't show any interest in getting better or making an effort.

I'm not really sure what else to say, other than your description of your friends and their situation seemed so detached and casual. I understand you would write it very matter of fact so we could 'see' the situation, but I almost think because you are so close to the people and have known them for a while that the enormity of the illness doesn't strike you the way it does me

And you are more wrong on that than you can possibly imagine. The 'casual' style of my description is something that can either easily be explained by my being an NT, or just the simple fact that I've never seen it as anything at all constructive to go panicking and getting overly emotional about a situation, experience telling that this doesn't help things at all. So my personal response to a very bad situation that is getting out of control and needs action, is to remain as calm and objective as I possibly can, in order not to bring more chaos to the situation and to figure out a solution. And it's why I ask for information, ideas and inspiration, which are what I need to help him, rather than sympathy, admiration or reassurance, which are not.

If I didn't care, why would I be asking for advice about it? Do you not think that I might have been trying other avenues before and while I'm asking opinions on an anonymous internet forum? It's precisely because I care, and because the enormity of it doesn't escape me, and because I'm with it day after day, that I take the decision to remain calm and cool about it. What would you suggest - that I spend my days wailing and weeping and gnashing my teeth and yelling futilely at the disinterested public health authority bureaucrats to look within themselves and find a special place in their hearts for this poor, screwed up bastard? C'mon...

It's only because of me that he ever goes out of his bloody front door at all, and that in the last few months he has been making an effort to see a shrink, though progress is slow. However, I'm not a health professional and I do have my own life to lead, and my own responsibilities, namely a business that employs 14 people and raising two kids (including an autistic one) on my own, plus the recent death of my father, the administration of whose estate (miles away from where I live) has fallen solely to me. I can't revolve my life around him, though I do do far more than anyone else has ever done or considered doing for him - including paid professionals - and far more than is healthy for my physical and mental stress levels. Which, considering I'm not only not related to him and he's just some guy I met randomly in a pub one day, and considering I'm supposedly a cold, sociopathic ENTP, isn't bad going. Where are all those empathic NF's with their strong humanitarian values? Oh yes - they're avoiding him and refusing to talk to him because he's "mean and rude". So fuck you, "frankly".

But this is something that's always pissed me off in the past about some people, who assume that just because someone doesn't get all het up on the outside and panicking, it's a sign of them not caring. Quite the opposite, my gun-jumping friend. Y'know, some of us are able to put our own emotional responses on a backburner in order to put higher priority on the needs of others and the importance of finding a solution to a problem. It's called being calm in a crisis and is a highly valued skill in most societies, not something to be criticised or condemned

 

[INTJMom]

...who assume that just because someone doesn't get all het up on the outside and panicking, it's a sign of them not caring. Quite the opposite, my gun-jumping friend. Y'know, some of us are able to put our own emotional responses on a backburner in order to put higher priority on the needs of others and the importance of finding a solution to a problem. It's called being calm in a crisis and is a highly valued skill in most societies...

I have this ability too, and I think it comes across like I don't care, but you're right - if I get all emotionally worked up, I'm not going to be calm enough to think of a solution.

 

[substitute]

I have this ability too, and I think it comes across like I don't care, but you're right - if I get all emotionally worked up, I'm not going to be calm enough to think of a solution.

rambling story alert!

I remember when my daughter got hit by a car. I saw her cartwheel across the road and land on the kerb, shaking, in shock, and then screaming like the very hounds of hell. I dropped what I was carrying and rushed over, but as soon as I saw that it was, at most, a broken foot, the worry was over. I knew immediately that it'd be fixable, nothing permanent or life threatening, so the panic was over for me and it was just a case of gritting my teeth through all the motions - calling an ambulance, waiting in casualty, having to find someone to look after my other daughter while I stayed with her in hospital for a day or so, then having her hobbling around on crutches for a few weeks and milking it for all it was worth.

So I called the ambulance on my cellphone and just sat waiting with her and the other one (the autistic one, who was unaffected by it all except just curious lol), for it to arrive while she screamed and screamed and screamed. I just blocked it out and I might've been singing '99 bottles of beer on the wall' for all that I was bothered. Of course, I wanted to take her pain away but I couldn't, I knew I couldn't, so I just sat tight and waited.

Meanwhile, some woman came flouncing out from a nearby house, announcing that everything was alright now, as she was a nursery nurse. Wtf? I laughed and said to her dryly, "What, have you brought your emergency storybook?" And she scowled at me and started coddling and fussing over my daughter, asking her questions that she clearly had no interest in answering because she was too busy screaming and being in pain. More 'concerned residents and locals' emerged from god knows where, and before long we were surrounded by worrying, fussing strangers. Meanwhile I just sat there, holding her still and hugging her, thinking about how I was going to manage the next couple of days of chaos and devising plans and solutions.

The ambulance came and they checked her out - yeah, probably a broken foot, they said, and we got in and went through the whole ordeal with X-rays and stuff at the hospital, during which time she was given some morphine for the pain and finally stopped screaming. Whereupon she was able to tell me that all those fussers and worriers who had come to express their sympathy had really annoyed her, and she wished they'd just get lost (as did I), and she also said that it was so painful that the only thing that helped her get through it was my calm, unperturbed presence. And that she knew everything was going to be alright, because I wasn't panicking, and she was only screaming because a) it hurt and b) she wanted to drown out the rabble and was hoping to make them give up and go back to minding their own business.

But a couple of days later, I was told by a neighbour that one of the fussing women had said to her that she was disgusted and shocked at how little I seemed to care that my kid had been hit by a car, and how I seemed to just sit there, not bothered by it as though the reality of the situation hadn't hit me.

Funny, eh?

[/ramble]

 

[Splittet]

I find it always quite provoking how so many people seem to think there is only one correct response to a lot of things. For example in this case, a woman basically thought there was only one proper way for you to show you care for your daughter, and that is in the way she would show. The lack of ability to see perspectives different from your own is really quite stunning in many people.

 

[substitute]

Yes - in fact, I think it's more like the reality of the situation hadn't hit HER! That is, that my daughter was in no great danger, and that everything would soon be fine - a reality that I'd grasped quite quickly, resulting in zero worry.

I always think it's strange how some people tend to think that if you don't respond in the same way they do, it means you don't understand the situation, as well as that you don't care. It reminds me of when I've sometimes argued with some people over religion, rolling my eyes as they claim that I don't understand them, simply because I don't agree. The implication being that if I understood what they were saying, then of course I'd agree, because they're 'obviously' right - what towering arrogance!!

Actually, these posts should be split into a separate thread about different responses to situations and the way they're judged by others. Not sure what to call it though!