[NF] When Fe & Fi Go Awry: The Definitive NF guide to F-ness (Let the Antics Ensue)

[Amargith]

True, tat..feel free to nuance it more according to the so-dom way

 

[Totenkindly]

And here's where I start to lose the distinction between F descriptions and instinctual variants from the Enneagram (for example), since we tend to use them as if they are different and not interrelated, but now they're intruding on each other's turf as we discuss intimacy and speed of connection. How much of this stuff is individual preference and how much of it is actually a type? etc.

^ maybe some of this is enneagram-related too; I wouldn't take Satine's metaphor to the extreme for myself. As an sx, Satine is primed to make those intense connections even more so.

Ah, just saw this... so I'm not the only one wondering.

feel free to nuance it more according to the so-dom way

Here is where I really want to make an awful crack about someone being all "so-dom"-y.
... but I won't.

 

[Jaguar]

Fuckbuddies and one night stands? That's pretty cold. Not exactly my idea of a romantic relationship.

 

[Thalassa]

The more we talk, the more Fi seems bizarre to me.

Fuckbuddies and one night stands? That's pretty cold. Not exactly my idea of a romantic relationship.

No, it's not just you. The comparison of Fi connections to one night stands isn't quite ringing true to me, either.

 

[Fidelia]

Satine, if I (God forbid) were to ever find myself crying in public, the last thing that would ease my pain would be someone I didn't know well hugging me. I'd be embarrassed enough to be crying in the first place, let alone in front of people I didn't know. How do you distinguish? Because quite honestly, I could see myself tearing a strip off someone if they did that right then (well, at least the INFJ version of tearing a strip off).

 

[Ivy]

I really like what Satine said. I actually really treasure those unexpected moments of going to an unplumbed depth with someone fairly new to me. It's not something I can do with just anyone- it is kind of a "planets aligning" thing. I had that experience most recently just this past weekend. A dear friend invited me and three other of her closest friends to have a bonfire and do some ghei exercise with writing down things we want to let go on beautiful paper and burning them in the fire. I only knew my friend, not her other friends. I ended up bonding pretty deeply in the moment with one of her other friends. It's never expected- we just mind melded pretty spontaneously. But I don't expect to ever see again, outside of other social events with our mutual friend. Now that Satine has described it I realize that I do this pretty often and then just never see those people again, and that's okay.

The difference I see between that and PeaceBaby/Jennifer taking a trip together in this thread is that it just happens spontaneously. No one is trying to orchestrate it or make it happen or pull the other into it.

 

[Amargith]

No, it's not just you. The comparison of Fi connections to one night stands isn't quite ringing true to me, either.

Sex= the most inimate part of physical intimacy right?

Before that you have anything from coming into someone's personal bubble/space, to softly touching, to caressing, petting, kissing's somewhere in there, as are shoulder pats amongst buddies, cuddles, tickling etc...


What I'm saying is that Fi jumps to the most intimate part of emotional intimacy. And Fidelia rather goes through all of the other 'emotional' steps before that, while we jump right in...


So in essence, Fi may want a soulmate, a lifepartner emotionally, but will also, while in search of that, gladly bond emotionally in that intimate way for a one night stand, as fuckbuddies, as well as like serial dating etc.


When you sleep with a man when you are just incredibly attracted to him and don't know him that well yet, you can still share something special. But, since there is no previous bond, the expectations usually (usually!) are minimal. Still..afterwards you can consider him intriguing enough to date him again. And after that you could decide it's been enough or you wanna get to know him more, etc etc. There is no expectation to build up to life partners, though it may go there.

Fi does the same emotionally, in a way. It builds intimate emotional experiences with people, without expecting there to be social obligations, though it doesn't rule those out.

That's my point.

 

[Amargith]

Satine, if I (God forbid) were to ever find myself crying in public, the last thing that would ease my pain would be someone I didn't know well hugging me. I'd be embarrassed enough to be crying in the first place, let alone in front of people I didn't know. How do you distinguish? Because quite honestly, I could see myself tearing a strip off someone if they did that right then (well, at least the INFJ version of tearing a strip off).

*smiles*

You set the pace, remember? People who are aware of social protocol, tend to, if they breach it, be completely awkward about it. I'll gently smile, letting you know I'm ok with it, you don't need to be embarassed, but I'll look away, coz I *know* you prefer that.

But if someone is completely distraught, and clearly losing their mind, and beyond caring what their environment thinks *becoz* they're hurting so much...my instant, immediate physical response is to hold them. Make them feel like they're not alone, like they don't have to do this alone. Coz that is the worst feeling ever.

When you still care about your environment..you're not at that point yet. And I'll recognize that

 

[Qre:us]

Such people fail to comprehend the toxic effects of offloading their feelings onto others.

YES. this is such an important point, and perhaps this is somewhat of the source of all the empathy-sympathy drama. i think that seeing another person in a less-than-good state is painful to all of us, but for an introverted Feeler, we introvert the feeling. it actively hurts us, which in part causes me to be so freaked out and impulsive and blow-uppy when another person and i are in conflict. i've got all this negative stuff coming into me and i feel like i have no way of stopping it - hence the Te hammer. for an extraverted Feeler, you are very, very good at seeing and understanding and relating with the other's pain, and you can feel your own pain for their state, but you do not have to adopt that pain as your own to understand it. we do - and to some extent this gives us an insider view, but to another, it means that we sacrifice the ability to block off ourselves.

This is one issue I have with Fi-users. For me, there's a selfish tinge to this, although it may appear, emphathetic.

"Be emotionally okay because that will make my emotional state okay."

It's a nice sentiment, but, it undermines the depth and complexity of my feeling when it seems like the worry is no longer about me working through those emotions for myself, but, working through my emotions for US BOTH. Especially when I'm feeling such raw emotions, the last thing I need is another worry added on top of that, which is managing how the Fi-user feels as well.

This is a reason I am very hesitant to tell my INFP mother anything that deeply saddens or upsets me because I know she will not be able to sleep (ruminating over and over) and will start reflecting such emotional state herself [ofc, this is also cuz she's my mother]. I feel like only sharing "positive" emotions with her - which saddens me.

I want to be able to have my emotions just be about ME [and NO ONE ELSE], without the other option being to keep the emotions to myself to achieve said state. It's restrictive to self-expression.

I seldom express strong emotion in the presence of others and try to be as restrained as possible, not because I feel nothing - like the stereotypical INTP robot - but because I'm hyperaware of polluting other people with my own emotional state (of course I don't always succeed).

I guess the difference is that I don't see it as "polluting" other people, as I see it as confiding in those I trust, and an expectation that they'll be able to be there for ME, without losing themselves, in the process.

But I don't seem to get that consideration from strong Fe types. I can get really stressed, even physically ill around them when they're emoting at me. I feel like I'm having to dissipate all this toxic energy and I don't know what to do with it. I know other Fi users who feel similarly. It's damned exhausting.

Should then people keep emotional expressions to themselves, unless it's "positive emotions"? That seems highly restricting and superficial.

 

[Ivy]

Satine, if I (God forbid) were to ever find myself crying in public, the last thing that would ease my pain would be someone I didn't know well hugging me. I'd be embarrassed enough to be crying in the first place, let alone in front of people I didn't know. How do you distinguish? Because quite honestly, I could see myself tearing a strip off someone if they did that right then (well, at least the INFJ version of tearing a strip off).

Actually, at this bonfire I mentioned, I did cry- during the aforementioned ghei exercise of writing something and then burning it, I had written something very personal and painful and when I tried to say it out loud my eyeballs started to leak. (Stupid eyeballs.) Yes, it was embarrassing, and yes, I just wanted it to stop. But the person I would later end up sort of bonding with in the moment just came up and hugged me and it was very comforting. Ordinarily it wouldn't be, and if I felt that a person was fulfilling an Fe need to acknowledge me I would probably stiffen up and then find the next tactful excuse to go home.

 

[Thalassa]

Sex= the most inimate part of physical intimacy right?

Before that you have anything from coming into someone's personal bubble/space, to softly touching, to caressing, petting, kissing's somewhere in there, as are shoulder pats amongst buddies, cuddles, tickling etc...


What I'm saying is that Fi jumps to the most intimate part of emotional intimacy. And Fidelia rather goes through all of the other 'emotional' steps before that, while we jump right in...

...with some people. Lots of other people in my daily feel like I'm completely inaccessable(sp?) and I choose to keep it that way.

So in essence, Fi may want a soulmate, a lifepartner emotionally, but will also, while in search of that, gladly bond emotionally in that intimate way for a one night stand, as fuckbuddies, as well as like serial dating etc.

ahh...hmmm...I have to think about that. I mean I'm intense, but I can also be cut off emotionally (other than basic human kindness, I guess as an F I hardly ever lose that aspect of my emotional self) ...it's kind of all or nothing with me. So be afraid. Be very afraid.

When you sleep with a man when you are just incredibly attracted to him and don't know him that well yet, you can still share something special. But, since there is no previous bond, the expectations usually (usually!) are minimal. Still..afterwards you can consider him intriguing enough to date him again. And after that you could decide it's been enough or you wanna get to know him more, etc etc. There is no expectation to build up to life partners, though it may go there.

Fi does the same emotionally, in a way. It builds intimate emotional experiences with people, without expecting there to be social obligations, though it doesn't rule those out.

That's my point.

Yeah, I mean, I guess in some instances we might share more of our inner self or "authentic" self where others would not be comfortable doing so, I suppose I do understand what you mean there.

 

[Amargith]

This is one issue I have with Fi-users. For me, there's a selfish tinge to this, although it may appear, emphathetic.

"Be emotionally okay because that will make my emotional state okay."

It's a nice sentiment, but, it undermines the depth and complexity of my feeling when it seems like the worry is no longer about me working through those emotions for myself, but, working through my emotions for US BOTH. Especially when I'm feeling such raw emotions, the last thing I need is another worry added on top of that, which is managing how the Fi-user feels as well.

This is a reason I am very hesitant to tell my INFP mother anything that deeply saddens or upsets me because I know she will not be able to sleep (ruminating over and over) and will start reflecting such emotional state herself [ofc, this is also cuz she's my mother]. I feel like only sharing "positive" emotions with her - which saddens me.

I want to be able to have my emotions just be about ME [and NO ONE ELSE], for once, without the other option being to keep the emotions to myself to achieve said state.




I guess the difference is that I don't see it as "polluting" other people, as I see it as confiding in those I trust, and an expectation that they'll be able to be there for ME, without losing themselves, in the process.



Should then people keep emotional expressions to themselves, unless it's "positive emotions"? That seems highly restricting and superficial.

God no. Them denying their emotions is just more exhausting as it's that frigging bell you're ignoring again

Just be honest about how you feel. Then at least I know I feel antsy coz you feel antsy, instead of me having to check and recheck my system to see where the bloody hell it's coming from, only to figure out something's wrong with you, and you're unwilling to acknowledge it. Either fix it, let me fix it, go away, or tell me at the very least that you're feeling that way and you wanna stay that way, so I can block you.

Stop polluting my frigging emotional state though, coz you're giving me a migraine

 

[highlander]

Although I have participated somewhat in these threads in the past, it is interesting to me to note that it's the aux's who get really involved in trying to understand the dynamic.

I wonder why?

Because the auxiliary is the most important function from a type development perspective. We instinctively know this and so are drawn to it.

 

[Thalassa]

God no. Them denying their emotions is just more exhausting as it's that frigging bell you're ignoring again

Just be honest about how you feel. Then at least I know I feel antsy coz you feel antsy, instead of me having to check and recheck my system to see where the bloody hell it's coming from, only to figure out something's wrong with you, and you're unwilling to acknowledge it. Either fix it, let me fix it, go away, or tell me at the very least that you're feeling that way and you wanna stay that way, so I can block you.

Stop polluting my frigging emotional state though, coz you're giving me a migraine

Yeah, seriously PLEASE be honest. I'd much rather people be honest, good or bad.

I don't relate to what Q said at all. If anything, I thought that Fe users were "the great pretenders" who plastered a smile on while they were dying inside...Fi wants people to be open and real.

I'm starting to think this Fi/Fe convo is a load of bunk. No offense people, but the overlaps in stereotypes are started to get kind of amusing.

 

[PeaceBaby]

^ we do seem to circle and circle about ... I've taken away a few insights though, so worth that.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

Because the auxiliary is the most important function from a type development perspective. We instinctively know this and so are drawn to it.

highlander, I find this very interesting. Can you explain this a bit more?

 

[Amargith]

I really like what Satine said. I actually really treasure those unexpected moments of going to an unplumbed depth with someone fairly new to me. It's not something I can do with just anyone- it is kind of a "planets aligning" thing. I had that experience most recently just this past weekend. A dear friend invited me and three other of her closest friends to have a bonfire and do some ghei exercise with writing down things we want to let go on beautiful paper and burning them in the fire. I only knew my friend, not her other friends. I ended up bonding pretty deeply in the moment with one of her other friends. It's never expected- we just mind melded pretty spontaneously. But I don't expect to ever see again, outside of other social events with our mutual friend. Now that Satine has described it I realize that I do this pretty often and then just never see those people again, and that's okay.

The difference I see between that and PeaceBaby/Jennifer taking a trip together in this thread is that it just happens spontaneously. No one is trying to orchestrate it or make it happen or pull the other into it.

Actually, at this bonfire I mentioned, I did cry- during the aforementioned ghei exercise of writing something and then burning it, I had written something very personal and painful and when I tried to say it out loud my eyeballs started to leak. (Stupid eyeballs.) Yes, it was embarrassing, and yes, I just wanted it to stop. But the person I would later end up sort of bonding with in the moment just came up and hugged me and it was very comforting. Ordinarily it wouldn't be, and if I felt that a person was fulfilling an Fe need to acknowledge me I would probably stiffen up and then find the next tactful excuse to go home.

Exactly. I also prefer the spontaneous way of it *just* happening, I have to say. I too clam up when an Fe-user does the polite checking-up thing, I have to say. What you experienced though...I'm almost jealous.

It's utterly beautiful

 

[Thalassa]

^ we do seem to circle and circle about ... I've taken away a few insights though, so worth that.

I say this also because I CAN pretend to be okay...I can pretend to be okay so that people won't pry or will leave me alone or so I won't embarrass myself in public. Does this mean I have Fe? I don't think so, because when I do hold very strong emotion in it seeps out in other ways. It's like trying to plug up a leaking dam by sticking my finger in it. It might work very briefly, but then what I'm actually feeling will start to "leak out the sides" in very odd ways.

But then other people have called this "expressiveness" Fe...it's all very confusing.

I also like when people are up front with me...not to the point of being unnecessarily cruel...and I think most NFs...maybe even most Fs...don't want that...but, yeah, I'd rather hear the truth than live a lie.

I honestly think it comes down to motive rather than outward behavior. If there's one thing I learned from Simulated World, that's it.

 

[Qre:us]

God no. Them denying their emotions is just more exhausting as it's that frigging bell you're ignoring again

It's not denying, it's choosing not to share with another [I may very well have a deep acknowledgement of my emotions, but, I might not show that externally, for whatever reason - I don't have an obligation to share its depth with anyone; my only obligation is to myself].

Just be honest about how you feel.

Sometimes I don't even know how to describe how I feel - that is honestly me - I'm still processing. And as my preference for Ne goes, with a trusted few, I like to put it out there to those people - for my own deeper understanding of my emotions.

All my F-dom/aux people get frustrated when I respond with, "I don't know" [to: how do you feel?] but it seems to personally aggravate my Fi-peeps more than my Fe-peeps. Fe-peeps see it as my being confused (nicely stated) or naive (not so nicely stated) [they can detach from it], Fi-peeps see it as my not acknowledging "what I already know" [they need their system validated].

Then at least I know I feel antsy coz you feel antsy, instead of me having to check and recheck my system to see where the bloody hell it's coming from, only to figure out something's wrong with you, and you're unwilling to acknowledge it.

I guess what I'm saying is - it can be a whole host of reasons. It may not always be unwillingness (like it was with my INFP mother).

And if you guys can mirror emotions of another that much, how do you reassure others that their emotional states (say, negative) is not responsible for yours [likely adding to their emotional distress because they see that it had a ripple effect on you as well]? I.e., they are free to feel without wondering how it will affect/be mirrored by you? How do you make the focus about THEM and keep yourself out of it? Can you?

Either fix it, let me fix it, go away, or tell me at the very least that you're feeling that way and you wanna stay that way, so I can block you.

I may not know what to do with said emotions (cuz I haven't truly processed it yet) - so what you're asking of me are things that may come easily for you, but those that have a lot of confusion or hindrance to easily accessing Fi-cognitive processes, it's asking for too much clarity, too soon. When the reason I'm seeking you out, in the first place, is because it's muddy as hell.

I don't know whether I even want it to be fixed, I don't know whether I wanna continue to feel that way. I don't know.....yet. All I know is I want some clarification regarding it, either way. If I already knew what to do with it, I wouldn't need to consult anyone.

Stop polluting my frigging emotional state though, coz you're giving me a migraine

Hmm, you wrote "without permission" before the edit, and I wanted to ask what you meant by that (permission), because I didn't understand how one needs to ask permission to pollute.

What, also, do you mean by pollute....when does a person sharing their emotions with you shift from revealing to polluting?

I can see how my not being honest with my emotions can be polluting though. It's the double-edged sword of Fi. It wants so badly that it may scare away [make them shut down] those who are not naturally versed in it, to even attempt to try.

Yeah, seriously PLEASE be honest. I'd much rather people be honest, good or bad.

I don't relate to what Q said at all. If anything, I thought that Fe users were "the great pretenders" who plastered a smile on while they were dying inside...Fi wants people to be open and real.

As this thread is not about Fi (and Fe) working optimally, but when it goes awry....keeping that in mind....

I'm asking you, Fi-doms/aux, to consider an issue that Fi may present:

Fi wanting people to be so "open and real" doesn't mean that that's what it therefore achieves. I.e., it may force the hand where what it wants, and what it achieves, are not in sync.

People can shy away from that outright pressure of Fi WANTING [almost bulldozing in its need] for "openness and realness".

 

[Seymour]

highlander, I find this very interesting. Can you explain this a bit more?

Not highlander, but the theory is that it's the development of the auxiliary that is critical to balance. If your primary function is Ji, you need Pe to bring in data and keep you from getting locked into your internal judgments. You also need Pe to help you perceive how to bring your internal judgments into the external world.

Conversely, if you primary function is Je, you need your auxiliary Pi to balance and inform that judgment, so you can act out of inner knowledge and understanding. Pi helps you know when it's appropriate to apply those external standards or when your understanding of the situation is too incomplete to apply your judgment.

So, the way back into balance is usually the auxiliary. The theory goes that the other functions may come into play in an unhealthy way when you ignore the auxiliary, and the psyche is forced (in desperation) to use other functions to bring material to consciousness.

Also some have claimed that until we get a good conscious understanding of our primary function, we may tend to describe ourself in terms of the auxiliary. Our primary function is so much the air we breathe, that we often aren't aware of it, so we see our strengths as those of our auxiliary function.