[NF] When Fe & Fi Go Awry: The Definitive NF guide to F-ness (Let the Antics Ensue)

[Fidelia]

Sorry,that was sloppy of me. I believe that Fi has the same shades of grey and need for precision that Fe lacks.

 

[Tallulah]

This thread is highly fascinating to me. I think Z Buck may really be onto something with the idea of bringing the thinking functions into the explanation mix. When I have a clash with an Fi user, it is usually because I feel like they're forcing their personal values/feelings onto the group, and it's the no-nonsense Te style that is really raising my Fe hackles rather than the Fi that they're expressing most of the time.

I've also had a few instances where it felt like a Fi/Te user was convinced that it was imperative that I understand their feelings about a certain matter when it wouldn't change the situation at all, and sometimes would complicate it unnecessarily. I kind of feel like peoples' individual feelings are sometimes irrelevant when considering the greater good. I am also, as a pretty strong Fe user, guilty of being annoyed when a Fi user uses the "I didn't mean to" card. There's a feeling on my part of, "but you've been in similar situations before that didn't work out so well, right? Didn't you learn from that?"

I would really like to hear more about the "cave" thing Usehername was talking about. Can anyone provide a description of what Fi feels like to them? Maybe an example? Fi is so foreign to me.

 

[Fidelia]

Yep, I've concluded that it's not Fi alone that creates friction, but Fi/Te and I would wager it would be the Fe/Ti that rubs them the wrong way sometimes. I think Umlauu was helpful in me seeing how the two are connected.

 

[tortoise]

Fidelia, apparently you and I are the only ones who don't have more exciting plans on this Saturday afternoon. It's certainly been quiet on the boards today.

It's Sunday afternoon here! I try to have a screen break on Sundays ...

This is intriguing and I need to think about it some more.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

And the other half of my response to op:

[*]How Were Others Inconvenienced?: Even though Anita totally overreacted, it was unfair to not read her emails. Maybe she wrote me to apologize. Maybe not. But by shutting her out, I was not even giving her the opportunity to express herself which wasn't fair to her. As for the Te bitchslap... well... Was I correct in what I said during my Te bitchslap? Yes. But sometimes when you speak the truth, a whisper is more effective than a howl. The more true it was, the more hurtful to hear. When push came to shove, I didn't give a damn about breaking social niceties, because all that mattered to me was speaking the truth. This must have caused this person much distress and anxiety.

I definitely always care about breaking social niceties- but because doing so always runs the risk of having more conflict to deal with. In order to think clearly, I try to keep things as civil as possible. I won’t lie- but I don’t always volunteer my entire opinion of events that have transpired before giving myself a chance to sort through them, possibly collect information about the other side’s point of view. The truth is equally important to me, but since it’s rare- in instances where there’s a serious divide between my point of view and the other persons- that both of us will agree on a ‘truth’, I only share it completely where it is asked for and/or I believe the other person is capable of considering it before dismissing it completely. I don’t see the point in telling someone something if they will only perceive it as some hurtful attack (motivated by emo retaliation, rather than thoughtful reflection)- regardless of how ‘true’ it seems to me. I know what seems true, and it’s enough to have some kind of handle on it for myself. And more often than not, I feel compelled to try to phrase what I’m saying in the least accusatory way possible (whilst still firmly adhering to what I believe to be true) – again, to keep inflammatory reactions at a minimum. It’s always important to me that conflict remain civil and as respectful as is possible.

What goes wrong: My need for things to stay on a civil basis- in order to think clearly and have any chance at extraverting any thoughts I’m having about the conflict- runs the risk of oppressing someone’s Fi as much as their overzealous Te oppresses my Ti? It’s perceived as constraining, anyway, it seems- though it truly is constraining for me to interact in a (albeit temporary) uncivil manner.

I really am curious about this. I really hate when I feel backed into a corner by someone’s Te, without being given the chance to defend myself because they’re coming on like gangbusters. I’ve said this several times before, but it really feels like Te users argue like cavemen trying to beat other people over the head with their opinions until the other side concedes from sheer exhaustion. It’s rather unsettling to me to think I’m actually doing this to someone myself (with Fe). I’d love to hear someone explain specifically how a Fe user could ‘back off’ and allow for Fi to breathe.

[*]Comments: It’s taken a lot of humble pie for me to admit that this was my Fi wreaking havoc. As I’ve become more aware of my Fi, I’ve also become aware of the trouble it can cause. I do have choices other than letting my Fi drive my behavior in this manner. For example, I might have given my Fi a chance to heal a bit and then gone and talked to this person or read their emails. Instead, I protected my Fi. And that became the driving force behind my behavior. This served my Fi’s agenda, but I don’t think this was the best for Esoteric Wench in the long run.
[/LIST]

I really don’t know what to do with this^ one.

But back to the above point I was trying to make, the experience of butting heads with a Te user- to me- is like hearing: “Me RIGHT! You WRONG!” And hearing it over and over again. It’s like- instead of listening and considering what I’ve said- they just wait until I’m done talking so they can reiterate the same thing they were saying all along. This was a major issue with my xNTJ ex-husband. And please realize- I’m not saying this is some end all truth of every single experience I have with Te users, but there’s definitely a pattern of it.

Something that’s immeasurably helpful is when I see any amount of effort being put into understanding whatever argument I present. Because I refuse to play the ‘try to win entitlement to TRUTH through the sheer force of will, rather than civil discourse’ game. If someone isn’t pausing to even consider what I say before trying to argue it’s wrong, then I stop even trying to communicate.

So what does this Fe monster look like to Fi? What- as specifically as possible- makes Fi feel oppressed by Fe? I’m having a hard time imagining it. The first thing that comes to mind is: “Me polite. You rude.” But, for obvious reasons, that doesn’t make much sense.

 

[skylights]

Although I have participated somewhat in these threads in the past, it is interesting to me to note that it's the aux's who get really involved in trying to understand the dynamic.

I wonder why?

Maybe with Te it's that outcome, (not the process getting there or the reasoning behind the outcome) is what matters most. Don't know.

actually, it's more like i have to DO Te for Te to work. just like Fe. i can't do it in my head. i need to process through it. i internally know what Fi thinks, but to find out what i think logically, i need to get it out. process it. that's what writing does for me and that's why i loooove these forums.

I think the issue is that
1) You need to figure out why your concern should matter to the other person if it's going to be addressed properly.
2) You need to keep the other person from losing face, by not embarrassing them unnecessarily or addressing the problem publicly.
3) Offer a solution that you think would work more as effectively.

i COMPLETELY agree with #s 1 and 3.

as for 2 - in my opinion, looking at PB's situation, i think it was great for her to go public with it. because ethically, they were doing something that, in my opinion, needs consequence.

Sometimes we will "shoot ourselves in the foot" I guess, for the things that matter. Depending on the particular Fi user or the particular situation, it can be done with sophisticated subtle nuance or a lack of tact and appreciation of all of the politics involved.

yeah. it's shooting ourselves in the foot to make a more important point that would not be made so clearly if gone about in a nice, harmonious fashion. i believe that all people are fundamentally good people with hopes and dreams and they just get a little off track. but sometimes, they get really off track, and a big shock is needed to get people to see what's really important again. if it doesn't happen, the same thing is likely to occur again and again and again. sometimes there needs to be a paradigm shift.

I've also had a few instances where it felt like a Fi/Te user was convinced that it was imperative that I understand their feelings about a certain matter when it wouldn't change the situation at all, and sometimes would complicate it unnecessarily. I kind of feel like peoples' individual feelings are sometimes irrelevant when considering the greater good. I am also, as a pretty strong Fe user, guilty of being annoyed when a Fi user uses the "I didn't mean to" card. There's a feeling on my part of, "but you've been in similar situations before that didn't work out so well, right? Didn't you learn from that?"

haha, see, i read this as so pretentious, even though i know you don't mean it to sound that way. i have a similar confusion towards Fe/Ti. Ti always sounds condescending to me, which can be a good deal of the problem.

so, i actually don't understand the lack of urgency - if you don't say some things at a certain time, the moment is lost. you will not have that same opportunity to make the point that you have now. and what if it is truly important? much better to err on the side of saying something than nothing. to err on the side of driving your point in too much than to never say it at all. you only have one life... you only have this moment once...

and life is complex; there is always more to learn; i never learn something that "complicates unnecessarily." i don't understand that feeling (unless we're talking about a powerpoint or something.)

i also sometimes feel like the greater good is irrelevant when considering a single individual's feelings, because the "greater" is made of individuals. believing that one individual does not matter is the same as saying all individuals don't matter. to discredit Fi is to lose the whole basis for Fe.

and finally - as to "didn't you know that was going to turn out badly" - no. haha. not really. i don't have great Ni to tell me it's likely, and i don't have great Si to line up how much this is like past situations. i don't even have great Ti to point out that it's illogical. but that's why i need to talk about what happened afterwards, if there's a problem. i need to Te-out things so i can understand the logical progression of events.

also... i don't understand why Fe/Ti is generally rather slow to forgive. i am quick to forgive once i understand what the other person was thinking. once our intimacy is reestablished. the two Fe doms i'm very close with and occasionally quarrel with are much slower to be willing to be okay with me again. it seems cruel and unnecessary, and it's been described to me as "punishment". i see that as shitty. if you (hypothetical you. not you you.) understand my motives, why do you need to punish me? obviously, if we fought, i already know something went wrong. what makes you think it's a great idea to shut me out on top of it? if you think i'm so wrong, can't you help me see rightly instead?

 

[Tallulah]

haha, see, i read this as so pretentious, even though i know you don't mean it to sound that way. i have a similar confusion towards Fe/Ti. Ti always sounds condescending to me, which can be a good deal of the problem.

Okay, this is so fascinating! Because I almost said in my previous post that I sometimes feel like Fi/Te is pretentious because it presumes everyone in the world wants to hear about your personal feelings. (And I'm saying this now not as a jab or anything, just as an aside because Fi/Te and Fe/Te obviously misunderstand each other so completely!) I will often have personal feelings that I may sublimate if I don't think they're relevant or helpful to the decision at hand.

so, i actually don't understand the lack of urgency - if you don't say some things at a certain time, the moment is lost. you will not have that same opportunity to make the point that you have now. and what if it is truly important? much better to err on the side of saying something than nothing. to err on the side of driving your point in too much than to never say it at all. you only have one life... you only have this moment once...

and life is complex; there is always more to learn; i never learn something that "complicates unnecessarily." i don't understand that feeling (unless we're talking about a powerpoint or something.)

I guess Ti just weighs the consequences, maybe, to see whether it would make a difference? (I do admit that I let Ti have too tight a rein sometimes as a predictor, when I should maybe just see what happens.)

As a personal example, I saw this in action when my INTJ guitar teacher, with whom I'd had a professional-only relationship, confessed his undying love when I was about to move out of town for a new job. Deep down he knew it wouldn't change anything, and I'd never given him any sign that I was interested. But in his mind, it was something he needed to get off his chest. In my mind, I kind of felt like he should have kept it to himself rather than making me reject him, and forever changing our relationship. This wasn't a "hey, I like you, and if you like me, cool, but if not, I understand." this was a big, emo, "you complete me" type thing that I didn't know how to deal with, having come out of nowhere. Maybe that makes me sound cold hearted, I don't know. But I do know it kind of made me feel weird and awkward about him, and I wish he hadn't crossed the line. But for him, I guess he wouldn't have been able to live with himself if he hadn't.

i also sometimes feel like the greater good is irrelevant when considering a single individual's feelings, because the "greater" is made of individuals. believing that one individual does not matter is the same as saying all individuals don't matter. to discredit Fi is to lose the whole basis for Fe.

This is a good point. I do feel like lots of times, though, Fe is the average of Fi. Everyone gets their say, and then you sort through the opinions and decide what's best for everyone. But after a certain point, one person's opinion or comfort or what have you can't trump what's best for everyone, can it? I wish I could think of a good example right now. I know it's annoying to have to talk in generalities.

and finally - as to "didn't you know that was going to turn out badly" - no. haha. not really. i don't have great Ni to tell me it's likely, and i don't have great Si to line up how much this is like past situations. i don't even have great Ti to point out that it's illogical. but that's why i need to talk about what happened afterwards, if there's a problem. i need to Te-out things so i can understand the logical progression of events.

This is very illuminating--thank you! I think a lot of Fe users just think that Fi people ARE aware, but are letting the need to express personal feelings override the consequences. Kind of a "it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission" type thing. We (Fe) are probably assigning blame where there shouldn't be any.

also... i don't understand why Fe/Ti is generally rather slow to forgive. i am quick to forgive once i understand what the other person was thinking. once our intimacy is reestablished. the two Fe doms i'm very close with and occasionally quarrel with are much slower to be willing to be okay with me again. it seems cruel and unnecessary, and it's been described to me as "punishment". i see that as shitty. if you (hypothetical you. not you you.) understand my motives, why do you need to punish me? obviously, if we fought, i already know something went wrong. what makes you think it's a great idea to shut me out on top of it? if you think i'm so wrong, can't you help me see rightly instead?

Well, from my perspective, I'd never call it punishment, but if I feel like I've been trampled on, I need to retreat to process it, and to lick my wounds, and to remind myself that the person is my friend and they probably weren't trying to offend. I think with Fe, we assume everyone knows the unspoken social "rules," and that if they don't follow them, that it's on purpose. So we wonder what that means--do they not respect us? Why didn't they hold up their end of the bargain? We have to process those wounded feelings and then make ourselves get over it.

Thank you for your responses--this is really helpful.

 

[CrystalViolet]

When you have a problem in public with one of your friends, you do not start yelling and crying and screaming for everyone to hear. It needlessly involves others who were not part of the original dispute. That usually ends up unproductively and badly for everyone involved. If a stranger intervenes, they are likely to be attacked by both of the parties involved. If they don't intervene, they are needlessly annoyed or their business is hampered by someone elses petty selfishness. The onlookers have no power to enact a solution, so it is not fair to involve them.

If you are upset with the way your teacher runs a class, you can be assured that you will not get results by challenging them publicly. All you do is assure them that you don't like them, possibly make their job more difficult by turning others against them and sometimes it is not appropriate or productive to publicly share the information that informs their decision-making. You also make them feel like you are ambushing them and they are not emotionally or mentally prepared so will come off looking badly. It's like coming up behind someone for a fight rather than challenging them head on. If you approach them privately, they may give you more information to give you a different perspective. They may explain why they have not chosen to take the route you see fit. You may also gain a better understanding of them and why they act the way they do. In all cases, you still have the option of public embarrassment in the name of full disclosure later. I actually think that doing things in public inhibits full disclosure sometimes, rather than enhancing it. That said, I agree that there has to be accountability. That's why everyone has a boss that you can go to if you get nowhere with the person. I lived in a community for five years that didn't have newspapers to report crime or corruption. I agree that this was detrimental. However, you might agree that publishing something in a newspaper without checking the facts or getting the story from several people first privately might be unethical.

I guess I think that sometimes, in the name of promoting peacemaking, people actually exacerbate the situation by choosing the wrong venue to deal with it.

Err...I have problems with just that. I don't always stop and think, I just react. Don't get me wrong, I'm not yelling and screaming....but I think I've just had an insight into why I'm labelled a trouble maker some times (especially when I'm on a crusade.)

 

[KDude]

Letting random strangers that I helped actually believe I was an angel.. That's happened twice.

It's probably not good if I can't just outright tell people they're crazy.

That's probably in the humorous area. I think Fe goes awry when I'm too agreeable, doting even, and then later find myself being taken advantage of or losing my place in the relationship. I then strip everything from them, become overly assertive in one fell swoop, instead of being healthily/incrementally assertive to begin with.

 

[Salomé]

Extraverted Feeling (Fe) - ...In its shadow aspect, extraverted feeling tends to discriminate against feelings that are less easy to identify with, and therefore less socially acceptable. The result is that extraverted feeling tends to ignore or harshly judge emotional needs that do not validate collective norms. This kind of response can lead to forms of bullying and prejudice, as majority values are emphasized at the expense of other, more individual values.
Introverted Feeling (Fi) - In its shadow aspect, introverted feeling becomes rageful, anxious, and sullen. It may withdraw all support for attitudes it has decided are simply wrong, even at the risk of rupturing relationship and agreed-upon standards of fellow-feeling.

I take issue with the description of these as "shadow" expressions. I see Fe/Fi doms do this stuff all the time so it's misleading to talk of it in those terms.
It's these negative aspects of Fe/Fi that lead to conflict.

My Fi gets me into righteous trouble regularly.

Righteous trouble is teh best kind.

Isn't it possible Peacebaby to still speak up, but to go about it in a different way? For example, I notice that many of the Fi users on here when they have a problem choose the most public possible way to proclaim it, without checking first to see that they have all the information, or seeing if it could be resolved privately. If the big guns need to be brought in then, you can keep going up the ladder?

I think the issue is that
1) You need to figure out why your concern should matter to the other person if it's going to be addressed properly.
2) You need to keep the other person from losing face, by not embarrassing them unnecessarily or addressing the problem publicly.
3) Offer a solution that you think would work more as effectively.

Just by taking these factors into account, you may be more likely to achieve the intended result, with better outcomes for everyone. You may have gotten to keep your job, the staff would have been safer, and the boss might even have thanked you for seeing an issue that could come back to bite them legally, inconvenience them, or you may have saved them a lot of trouble in figuring out what to do instead. Most people aren't out to do the wrong thing. They just are going to get their backs up if they feel that you as their employee are making them look bad publicly.

(I'm not saying this about you specifically. It's just a common Fi issue I see coming up in staff meetings etc. If they had spun their issue a slightly different way, the results would have been much better for everyone involved. They weren't wrong to speak up, but they didn't end up getting heard because of the way they went about it). I'd like to understand this better.

It seems to me you are making assumptions that suggest I lack a certain ... tact and diplomacy.

Yes. This annoys me. The presumption is that, since the group rejected you, you must have been at fault. I see this with Fe users all the time. It's so narrow-minded. It's the essence of mob mentality. It's quite clear to me that you did the right thing, and, actually, the way you expressed yourself really shouldn't have made a difference - unless you were completely disrespectful and offensive, and even then, the PRINCIPLE is what counts. Is the situation dangerous or not? Do we need to take action to avoid a health and safety issue or not? The principle is true no matter the mode of expression. Why do Fe users struggle with this? It's seems so superficial to me to get bogged down with the details of delivery and miss the message. I give you the benefit of the doubt because I know that boat-rockers are very often motivated by integrity and honour and that commercial organisations most often are not. But fidelia gives you a lecture about what you (probably) did wrong. After you got fired! This is what pisses me off most about Fe. It's so holier-than-thou and at the same time seems to have no sense of integrity. Just baffling.

 

[Fidelia]

In PB's case (and I admit I don't know the details, nor am I saying that for sure the desired outcome would have happened if she had done things the Fe way), despite her publically dealing with what was ethically wrong and making sure everyone was aware of how wrong it was, the end result was:

1) She was not present to continue making a difference
2) The workroom was still unsafe for other employees
3) That situation was unlikely to change.

By using a little strategy and doing it privately, she may have been able to help the employer understand why this is such a big deal, how it could personally affect him and offer him an option that would allow him to still look good in front of his employees AND provide them with a safe work environment.

I'd be the first to say that she was treated very unfairly and that the employee was being unethical. I don't think she did something wrong. I do think that by paying more attention to the delivery of the message though, the chances might have been higher that change may have occurred.

 

[Salomé]

In PB's case (and I admit I don't know the details, nor am I saying that for sure the desired outcome would have happened if she had done things the Fe way), despite her publically dealing with what was ethically wrong and making sure everyone was aware of how wrong it was, the end result was:

1) She was not present to continue making a difference
2) The workroom was still unsafe for other employees
3) That situation was unlikely to change.

By using a little strategy and doing it privately, she may have been able to help the employer understand why this is such a big deal, how it could personally affect him and offer him an option that would allow him to still look good in front of his employees AND provide them with a safe work environment.

I'd be the first to say that she was treated very unfairly and that the employee was being unethical. I don't think she did something wrong. I do think that by paying more attention to the delivery of the message though, the chances might have been higher that change may have occurred.

None of those things are her obligation. Her only obligation was to report the incident, which she did, at great cost to herself. Her employer's (ethical and LEGAL) obligation is to provide a safe environment for their employees. Which they clearly failed to do. It's open and shut to me. I don't see why PB needs to go massage someone else's ego - she is the injured party and to do so would violate Fi's sense of integrity. (That's what you guys don't seem to appreciate.) In any event, the fact that they acted unethically and illegally suggests that no approach, other than a deceitful one, perhaps, would have worked. They were not open to reason.

In the end, it doesn't matter what the outcome is - she did the right thing. If everyone at the firm had supported her and also done the right thing, the employer would have been forced to make concessions (Trade Unions are so Fi!) But they were too cowardly and short-sighted to make a stand. So why should she care what happens to them now?

 

[Fidelia]

Why should she care? Because it is still putting her coworkers at danger, which is why she spoke up in the first place. If she cares about them, I don't understand why it's a bad thing to try for the most productive outcome. The fact that there was no union for her to go to makes it even more imperative to try to figure out a way to effect change behind the scenes.

Of course, this is just my Fe reasoning. I'd just like to better understand the Fi way of seeing it. I'm not criticizing her. I just don't understand why Fi has kind of a "screw them anyway" kind of perspective. If it's a value that made them stand up in the first place, why not look at the best way of effecting change in the end.

 

[CrystalViolet]

Yes. This annoys me. The presumption is that, since the group rejected you, you must have been at fault. I see this with Fe users all the time. It's so narrow-minded. It's the essence of mob mentality. It's quite clear to me that you did the right thing, and, actually, the way you expressed yourself really shouldn't have made a difference - unless you were completely disrespectful and offensive, and even then, the PRINCIPLE is what counts. Is the situation dangerous or not? Do we need to take action to avoid a health and safety issue or not? The principle is true no matter the mode of expression. Why do Fe users struggle with this? It's seems so superficial to me to get bogged down with the details of delivery and miss the message. I give you the benefit of the doubt because I know that boat-rockers are very often motivated by integrity and honour and that commercial organisations most often are not. But fidelia gives you a lecture about what you (probably) did wrong. After you got fired! This is what pisses me off most about Fe. It's so holier-than-thou and at the same time seems to have no sense of integrity. Just baffling.

It is a constant source of frustration. Particulary when the message is discounted, because of the delivery and then all of sudden all of your opinions are disregarded.
I find it a constant battle in an industry that is suppose to have patient care as one of it's priorities, but in the end it's all about the bottom line, often with callous disregard for quality.
I have been f#@%ed over many a time for reminding people of those supposed values.
And people wonder why some of the best and brightest get jaded, and bail.


I'm not intending on jumping on the anti-Fe bandwagon...I actually up until this point never reliesed how deficent I am in Fe...and this theard has brought into sharp relief, just how lacking I am in that social currency. At the same time, it makes me wonder how things ever change for the better, if people continually clamp down on the lone voices that say "hang on, this isn't right."

I pride myself for being an independent thinker, but I have never really considered that in other peoples eyes that's actually a mighty big failing. Integrity and a strict work ethic are my big things. It's never really occured to me to do things differently.

Some one once described me as the little mouse who turns into a lion. It always kinda tickled me pink (it was meant as compliment), but now I'm not so sure.

 

[Salomé]

Why should she care? Because it is still putting her coworkers at danger, which is why she spoke up in the first place. If she cares about them, I don't understand why it's a bad thing to try for the most productive outcome.

Her coworkers have been alerted to the danger. Short of paying for the improvements herself, she can do no more. That's another difference. Fi lets people decide for themselves. Fe tries to nanny them into what it thinks is best and accepts no dissenters. Which, bearing in mind we are dealing with subjective evaluations, is absurd. It will also use manipulation to achieve the desired end with a means-justifies-ends rationalization, which one can only do when one believes one has absolute moral authority (always a delusion).

The difference is between valuing internal harmony (with ideals) and external harmony. External harmony is expedient in most situations, but that doesn't make it ethical. The potential for it to be unethical is far greater, and that's why Fi users mistrust it. It's just as desirable for us that everyone gets along - it's just not the most important thing. Not even close.
Jesus was all Fi, btw. Look at his dialogue with Pilate - would you lecture him about how to appease the authorities and spare his life?

 

[KDude]

It is a constant source of frustration. Particulary when the message is discounted, because of the delivery and then all of sudden all of your opinions are disregarded.
I find it a constant battle in an industry that is suppose to have patient care as one of it's priorities, but in the end it's all about the bottom line, often with callous disregard for quality.
I have been f#@%ed over many a time for reminding people of those supposed values.
And people wonder why some of the best and brightest get jaded, and bail.


I'm not intending on jumping on the anti-Fe bandwagon...I actually up until this point never reliesed how deficent I am in Fe...and this theard has brought into sharp relief, just how lacking I am in that social currency. At the same time, it makes me wonder how things ever change for the better, if people continually clamp down on the lone voices that say "hang on, this isn't right."

I pride myself for being an independent thinker, but I have never really considered that in other peoples eyes that's actually a mighty big failing. Integrity and a strict work ethic are my big things. It's never really occured to me to do things differently.

Some one once described me as the little mouse who turns into a lion. It always kinda tickled me pink (it was meant as compliment), but now I'm not so sure.

I'm an independent thinker as well. I'm just better off doing that alone probably.

My impression is that Fi-doms, while being independent, tend to keep to themselves for the most part too.. One of the things that made me think I was Fe though is that I'm still expressive with/in front people, never reserved as much as I imagine Fi-dom to be (I could be wrong, but that's my conclusion). I don't become instantly "agreeable" though.. I try my best to incorporate my opinions with people, without negating anyone else too much. At times, I can't. The problem I'm noticing now with assertive Fi is that it needs to be individualistic full time - and won't even butter people up at that . They'll word things in only the way they prefer. It's unnecessary.

 

[CrystalViolet]

Why should she care? Because it is still putting her coworkers at danger, which is why she spoke up in the first place. If she cares about them, I don't understand why it's a bad thing to try for the most productive outcome. The fact that there was no union for her to go to makes it even more imperative to try to figure out a way to effect change behind the scenes.

Of course, this is just my Fe reasoning. I'd just like to better understand the Fi way of seeing it. I'm not criticizing her. I just don't understand why Fi has kind of a "screw them anyway" kind of perspective. If it's a value that made them stand up in the first place, why not look at the best way of effecting change in the end.

It's not that. It's kinda if I don't speak up now, it will all get swept under the carpet. My own experiences are if I don't shout out (not literally), people don't even reliese there's even an issue, and every thing I say behind closed doors is discounted, and I am suppressed. Some times it's the only time I get heard.
After a lifetime of never being listened too, or even ideas stolen, I've assessed this is the fastest way to get heard. Positive or Negative consequences be damned, at least some one will take notice and then things will begin to change.

 

[BlackCat]

When Fi Went Awry: Backstory- This guy treats women like they are objects. He's basically molested a few people at the workplace, and seems to intrusively flirt with every girl who works there. And no one does anything about it's he's the manager's son. Every time I see him do something like that I just have to clench my fists and shake my head to hope I don't do something... but that didn't quite work at one point.

He's even worse outside of the work place; with the flirting and molesting. Because he can't get fired. He ran his hand up a friend's thigh, and no one did anything about it. And so I've had that in mind whenever I see him. Said friend nearly broke her leg at a party and he was there, drunk off his ass, annoying her and being a prick. She saw him at a local event, and he brought it up to me- "So I saw someone I think is a mutual friend of ours." (he's being careful because I'm pretty sure he understands how I feel about him). And I said "yeah, the one you downright molested, and who you annoyed at a party a few nights ago when she almost broke her leg and you were drunk off your ass. Yeah I know the friend you're talking about. *glare*"

Then he just kind of looked at me in a shocked way. Kind of funny, ever since then I haven't been on the schedule with him; and he hasn't spoken to me since. Good riddance, I don't want to get fired over beating him up.

Why Did Fi Do That?: Why? Because I wanted him to understand what he puts people through. How he's totally selfish and a complete moron. He needs to grow the fuck up. He's just living in a fantasy world right now basically; wherein he can do whatever the hell he wants.

Also I had some anger building up; and I didn't want to do anything really rash. So I just had to express it in that way; had to take some action, make an impact. I try to refrain from physical violence, but sometimes it just really doesn't work. So this is my attempt at suppressing those emotions. Yay for Se.

And, the outcome? He was just kind of shocked, and one of my coworkers did an "OH SNAP" and started laughing. Wasn't much of an outcome, except he's been avoiding me.

What was Fi’s justification for doing what it did? The justification? Again, he's a terrible person who molests and violates women (both verbally and physically). He's an idiot... ugh. Could go on and on.

How Were Others Inconvenienced? : He sure wasn't feeling that great for the rest of the day, otherwise no one else was really affected. I don't really care though, I'm glad he didn't feel very good.

Comments: I can see how this would get me in trouble. But meh. I would rather be who I am to the fullest extent, so long as I don't get a criminal record.

 

[Lauren]

^ An Fe aux tends to retreat to process. They have more difficulty thinking about emotions on the fly. That is why when I consider confrontation I hesitate. I know they will just close the circle around themselves closer and closer. And generally I like these people. I don't want them to pull further away so I give them space and wait for other opportunities where we could discuss issues.

QUOTE]

From Tiltyred Quote: I lack that sense of urgency. I wouldn't pursue it either. Because I believe that all things reveal themselves over time, and I don't care if it takes years, as it sometimes has. I'm content to hang back and observe over long periods of time. I think sometimes behaviors have deeper roots than you can see from just one or two incidents, so I'm not prepared to speak on them until I've had a chance to try to figure out where they're coming from.

This is what I do as well. I can think of a couple of instances where asking more questions or confronting my friend would have resulted in my friend either shutting down or both of us saying something that would close off further understanding. Something can be said in a moment of frustration or anger that would be difficult to forget or take back (and it may not be truthful, just self protection). Whether I say something to a friend or not in a potentially contentious situation is entirely intuitive. But my first impulse is to stay quiet and wait for another opportunity to talk. I wait for the storm to blow over. I think there is a time for confrontation; ideally for me that would be calming explaining my feelings or asking questions and then really listening. I avoid confrontation as the other person will only run for cover. In that case, there is no potential for understanding, the real issues aren't discussed, and it feels like a waste of energy.

 

[CrystalViolet]

I'm an independent thinker as well. I'm just better off doing that alone probably.

My impression is that Fi-doms, while being independent, tend to keep to themselves for the most part too.. One of the things that made me think I was Fe though is that I'm still expressive with/in front people, never reserved as much as I imagine Fi-dom to be (I could be wrong, but that's my conclusion). I don't become instantly "agreeable" though.. I try my best to incorporate my opinions with people, without negating anyone else too much. At times, I can't. The problem I'm noticing now with assertive Fi is that it needs to be individualistic full time - and won't even butter people up at that . They'll word things in only the way they prefer. It's unnecessary.

Yeah, guilty as charged. I try not not to negate others opinions (Unless you are just wrong, LOL, just j/k), but yes, I'm always reserved until I decide upon action, which can happen at the flick of a switch seemingly on the outside, but inside my thought processes, there has been quite a massive cascade effect. I refuse to brown nose though (I do it badly any how), and I chose my words carefully, each weighted in my mind to wring maxium meaning out of what I'm about to say. Unfortuantly it's wasted most of the time. Occasionally some one gets it. It's just how we work. If we speak, you better listen, because it's important when we take the time to vocalise our thoughts. Even though we seem we are delivering it bluntly, there tends to be a lot subtle meaning as well.
BTW, assertive Fi doesn't need to be individualistic...it just is, by it's very nature, you can't alter that.