[NF] When Fe & Fi Go Awry: The Definitive NF guide to F-ness (Let the Antics Ensue)

[onemoretime]

"We?"

I've known Fi and Fe people who can make commitments without understanding the other side implicitly because they are committed to the relationship regardless. Maybe you have not seen it, but I have. So I'm going to have to say that any sort of blanket-statement inferring that all Fe OR Fi can be labeled like this is a statement that I think experiential knowledge has dismissed.

I do prefer to actually understand people, though, if I get a choice, and in terms of a strongly felt relationship? It ain't gonna happen unless I do. I'll maintain ties, but they aren't going to be my best friends and confidantes.

But that is just me, and I'm not going to speak for an entire sector of personality type.

You don't have to understand someone to love them. It's what's sort of beautiful about the whole thing.

 

[Udog]

I find it strange accusation that Fi people insist that other people feel a certain way and ascribe emotion where there is none. I've heard that on these boards before, but frankly, never in my real life. In my life, I find myself on the other end - the one having emotion projected onto them, the one having people insist I must feel a certain way when I do not. Like many introverts, I tend to fall into moments of thoughtful repose where I have a "neutral" face and people will assume I must be upset or angry or unfriendly or whatever....I used to think it was Es, especially SFJs, doing this to me.

I now wonder if this is a perceiving issue and little to do with Fe/Fi.

Projection is a human quality, not a cognitive function quality IMO. We fail when we try to say "xNFPs project", and succeed when we discuss "How xNFPs might project".

For example, I find that NFPs are more prone to project emotions/motivations that don't exist, while NFJs are more prone to project needs/intentions that don't exist.

 

[Fidelia]

I agree with that ^^

 

[OrangeAppled]

Projection is a human quality, not a cognitive function quality IMO. We fail when we try to say "xNFPs project", and succeed when we discuss "How xNFPs might project".

For example, I find that NFPs are more prone to project emotions/motivations that don't exist, while NFJs are more prone to project needs/intentions that don't exist.

Again though, I think this is more of a perceiving issue. The more limited a person's perception, the more likely they are to jump to conclusions because they cannot see the alternatives. An INFP with adequate Ne is not that likely to project, IMO. The fault would lie in their perception, not their Fi, which can only work with the info Ne brings in.

 

[Fidelia]

Similarly, an INFJ could use their Ni to come up with other possibilities. Hmm, I'm not sure what to think about it. I do notice that there are distinct trends (as Udog said) about what the two varieties tend to get wrong.

 

[MacGuffin]

You think it's arrogant that a Fi-dom insists they know your emotional state when you don't

No, I think it's arrogant that a Fi-dom insists they know my emotional state when I do know it.

@Mac: there are at least 4 reasons an Fi-user's reading can be off (personal emotional instability, not having enough back info, laziness aka not doing your research before jumping to conclusions, inexperience, ...)

However. Chances are that, unless they're full blown emotionally unstable, they are on to something. They might not be accurate when they guess as to what it is, but there's something there. It's like ignoring that whining puppy they were talking about before. Me, I always compared it to a frigging bell going off, which I cannot ignore, and the other person doesn't seem to hear. All I want from you is to acknowledge the fact that there *is* in fact a bell. If you're going to insist that there is no bell and I must be insane, I'm going to go mental. For real. Then I'll start wondering what possible reasons you could have for lying to me, hiding the truth for me and why that bell is going off at all. And that's where you get inaccurate. Since there is no way for me to get more information on the bell, I'm going to have to resort to Ne to consider which options are all available, and there will be some crazy ones in there!

Also, when dealing with a rather inexperienced Fi-user, or one that's off their game for some reason, they might mistake certain emotions that have a similar vibe for another. For instance, momentary frustration can look like full blown rage, especially in a debate (like Tallullah talked about). Unfortunately, as Ti-users tend to *like* precision, they refuse the explanation or indication the Fi-user is given as being correct or truthful, and meanwhile imho, tossing the baby out there with the bathwater. Ok, maybe it's not full blown rage, but there *is* something there...plz plz plz take a moment and either explain to us why it's irrelevant/not important/should keep ringing/be ignored or is otherwise covered already and a non-issue, or turn it off coz it is driving me crazy :steam: (honestly, let's see you ignore a frigging smoke-alarm going off right next to you and keep drinking tea as if nothing's going on *pouts*)

You can see why at this point you won't get an appology from the Fi-user. You're demanding them to say out loud that there *is* no bell and appologize for even suggesting you are hiding a bell from them. Ironically, *that* would be lying. And most Fi-users are kinda truth-oriented, especially on these things.Dropping it is hard, as that bell is still going. Plz turn it off. Plz, or let us at least help you turn it off. We're worried about you

/rant

Okay, thank you, that helps. Is there anything that really helps to convince you that there's no need for the alarm, we can go ahead and hit the snooze button?

 

[Thalassa]

I find it strange accusation that Fi people insist that other people feel a certain way and ascribe emotion where there is none. I've heard that on these boards before, but frankly, never in my real life. In my life, I find myself on the other end - the one having emotion projected onto them, the one having people insist I must feel a certain way when I do not. Like many introverts, I tend to fall into moments of thoughtful repose where I have a "neutral" face and people will assume I must be upset or angry or unfriendly or whatever....I used to think it was Es, especially SFJs, doing this to me.

I now wonder if this is a perceiving issue and little to do with Fe/Fi.

I wonder how this all really goes down. Do Fi users really go around telling people what they're feeling? I'm thinking about this. I'm really trying to think of a time where I just marched up and told someone they were feeling a certain way and best not argue with me. I honestly can't think of one.

I can, however, think of many, many times when I TOOK THINGS PERSONALLY that I shouldn't have i.e. mistaking someone's neutral behavior for anger or dislike or whatever. It's generally when I like or love that person and desire their approval and/or love. It's created out of my own sense of insecurity, fears, etc. not any arrogant assumption that I know what others are feeling.

I do, however, sometimes pick up on things intuitively...little things, odd things...but I can't say that I've ever been beligerent about telling another person how they feel.

Well, wait - I remember getting in arguments with my ex when he would be irrationally angry, like out of his mind in a rage, and I would say things like, "but you love me!" because I knew he did, and I don't know if I said it in an attempt to make him stop acting crazy or to make myself not hate him for being angry...but that's something else entirely, a somewhat dysfunctional relationship...

 

[MacGuffin]

Sorry, I was "constipated and slightly peckish" above. Thankfully there was some bizzaro ISFJ-INFP hybrid on the case so there is hope for me yet.

 

[William K]

For example, I find that NFPs are more prone to project emotions/motivations that don't exist, while NFJs are more prone to project needs/intentions that don't exist.

I think this goes back to the "ends and means". When someone is venting, I'm interested in knowing "What is causing the venting?" (i.e the motivation) and less in "What are you trying to achieve with your venting?" (i.e the intention)

 

[OrangeAppled]

I can, however, think of many, many times when I TOOK THINGS PERSONALLY that I shouldn't have i.e. mistaking someone's neutral behavior for anger or dislike or whatever. It's generally when I like or love that person and desire their approval and/or love. It's created out of my own sense of insecurity, fears, etc. not any arrogant assumption that I know what others are feeling.

I agree with this.....it's a focus on my OWN feeling, in which case, I am seeking to validate my feeling, not insist that they had certain motivations.

If you (in general) say, "I did not mean to offend you. I do not feel the negative emotions you suggest I feel", then that does not change the fact that what you said hit on Fi's feeling value, or it was taken "personally". It's really not about YOU and what you meant as an individual. Your attitude may seem non-offensive to you, because its intent/motive/whatever is within standard Fe protocol or accepted sentiments, but that in itself could be what is hitting on a Fi value. It's like Fi realizing this external standard is BS, and your "blunder" just highlighted why and how. Once again, you are just a symbol of a larger violation. So you may think the Fi person is insisting you feel a certain way - when they are simply insisting that their own feeling is valid. Again, part of the problem lies in Fe not recognizing the real violation, which is often not obvious on the surface and/or because Fe doesn't even register the issue on its scale.

 

[cafe]

So say a person doesn't have malicious intentions or motivations, but their actions are causing difficulties for you.

How do you communicate in a way that will not hurt them unduly, that though you do not attribute bad intentions to them, that the behaviors that are causing difficulties have to change?

 

[William K]

I can, however, think of many, many times when I TOOK THINGS PERSONALLY that I shouldn't have i.e. mistaking someone's neutral behavior for anger or dislike or whatever. It's generally when I like or love that person and desire their approval and/or love. It's created out of my own sense of insecurity, fears, etc. not any arrogant assumption that I know what others are feeling.

I write research papers in my work and it gets reviewed anonymously. And when I get something critical of what I write, I tend to "read between the lines" and think the reviewer doesn't like me and is calling me an idiot, when they are really trying to help me improve my paper.

Well, ok, maybe they do think I'm an idiot

 

[Thalassa]

So say a person doesn't have malicious intentions or motivations, but their actions are causing difficulties for you.

How do you communicate in a way that will not hurt them unduly, that though you do not attribute bad intentions to them, that the behaviors that are causing difficulties have to change?

I don't know. If you figure it out, please tell me.

 

[Fidelia]

NFPs? Anyone? This is I think the crux of the issue for us Fe users. I get the sense that just expressing that they are valuable to me as a person, but their behaviour is impacting me or others negatively might still have a lot more read into it than I intend or may feel like I am telling them to act inauthentically or am being stifling/bossy.

 

[OrangeAppled]

So say a person doesn't have malicious intentions or motivations, but their actions are causing difficulties for you.

How do you communicate in a way that will not hurt them unduly, that though you do not attribute bad intentions to them, that the behaviors that are causing difficulties have to change?

I think some of this comes down to wording....basic concepts like using "I" statements and focusing on explaining your own feelings instead of placing blame.

Referring back to my massive post some pages back, it can be difficult to explain Fi feelings in a way so that other people will accept them as valid. It helps if the other person puts aside preconceptions of how most people "feel" and why they feel that way.


EDIT: I thought this was addressing Fi-users' method of communicating....funny how it works both ways

 

[Thalassa]

NFPs? Anyone? This is I think the crux of the issue for us Fe users. I get the sense that just expressing that they are valuable to me as a person, but their behaviour is impacting me or others negatively might still have a lot more read into it than I intend or may feel like I am telling them to act inauthentically or am being stifling/bossy.

Is this really an Fi/Fe issue always, though? Because I don't think it is. I know IxFJs who know exactly how to correct a situation where I took something personally as smoothly as anyone could possibly do. Depends on the person. Depends on the relationship to the other person. Depends on so many little things...

 

[Tallulah]

Well, while I was typing this big long thing out, another conversation has cropped up. This is in response to the marm/MacGuffin thing a few posts back:

I do know there have been times when an Fi user has read me as being really angry when I wasn't internally feeling anger at all--frustration, yes, but not anger. I know when I'm feeling anger. But I may have been speaking more animatedly and possibly forcibly when I'm frustrated and trying to talk my way into understanding. That frustration is almost never expressed to the person I'm frustrated with--because I'm still at the point where I don't really know how I feel about something, and I'm trying to make sense of it. (Talking to the person involved would only cloud my perceptions.) But it's not anger. Internally, it's often something like calm but confused. Maybe sometimes hurt by another party.

I remember venting like that to an xNFP who was not a tremendously close friend, but who was kind of in my "circle" at the time, and she told one of our mutual friends later that I was "just so angry," and she didn't know how to calm me down. It's situations like these that confirm my desire to vent with someone who does understand my emotional state in times like these, and won't try to insist I'm angry when I'm not. Someone who will listen to my words instead of trying to read my emotional state. I was so far from angry in that situation it wasn't even funny. But this chick was also not a tremendously secure person, anyway. But that's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

When I'm feeling anger and it's directed at you, you will know it. I have a lot less of a filter, a lot less of a "give a damn" and a diminished ability to express myself in a way that makes sense. The last time I remember being really angry at someone, it was at an old roommate. I kind of let loose on her, then immediately left the house and didn't come back for the whole weekend. I didn't even want to look at her. But that was a very extreme situation, and she was not a close friend at all.

Now that I'm typing all this out, it might be that I mostly get irritated by people who aren't close to me trying to tell me how I feel. I will cut close friends some slack on that account--though I might tell them I don't want to talk about it if I don't feel like doing an emotional biopsy at the moment.

 

[cafe]

I take things personally all the time and think I must have done something to make someone unhappy with me when it generally ends up having nothing to do with me. IOW, I can pick up on the vibe, but not necesarily interpret the cause of the vibe.

Overall, though, I identify with Fe users pretty strongly, whatever that means.

 

[Thalassa]

I remember venting like that to an xNFP who was not a tremendously close friend, but who was kind of in my "circle" at the time, and she told one of our mutual friends later that I was "just so angry," and she didn't know how to calm me down. It's situations like these that confirm my desire to vent with someone who does understand my emotional state in times like these, and won't try to insist I'm angry when I'm not. Someone who will listen to my words instead of trying to read my emotional state. I was so far from angry in that situation it wasn't even funny. But this chick was also not a tremendously secure person, anyway. But that's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Yeah but you vented to someone you weren't close to and she's going to have her own perception of the situation. I sometimes wonder if certain Ts (not Fe or Fi users) presume that Fs should just know what they're thinking or feeling, and so then get annoyed when we're wrong in our perceptions.

I mean, it was nice of this girl to listen to you vent, but then you turn around and get annoyed that she misunderstood your frustration as anger and call her "not tremendously secure." I mean...

EDIT: In fact, I think humans ...just fucking humans...do this all of the time. We see things through our own context and expect the other person to JUST KNOW.

What is that? That isn't an Fi vs. Fe thing. I don't even know that it's a T vs. F thing.

 

[Tallulah]

Yeah but you vented to someone you weren't close to and she's going to have her own perception of the situation. I sometimes wonder if certain Ts (not Fe or Fi users) presume that Fs should just know what they're thinking or feeling, and so then get annoyed when we're wrong in our perceptions.

I mean, it was nice of this girl to listen to you vent, but then you turn around and get annoyed that she misunderstood your frustration as anger and call her "not tremendously secure." I mean...

EDIT: In fact, I think humans ...just fucking humans...do this all of the time. We see things through our own context and expect the other person to JUST KNOW.

What is that? That isn't an Fi vs. Fe thing. I don't even know that it's a T vs. F thing.

Well, the "not tremendously secure" comment wasn't meant as a response to how she reacted. That came from interactions with her that had appeared before and continued a long time after that. The reason I said that at all was to indicate that I was not trying to paint that situation as a typical xNFP thing, and maybe it had something to do with her projecting her own insecurities.

But obviously the venting to her was a mistake. Looking back, I think I had sensed she wanted to have a closer friendship, so I was confiding in her to maybe facilitate that, rather than staying at a polite, cordial level. I should have probably read the situation better and just vented to a closer friend.

I don't know if I had an expectation of her, other than to just listen, like I would when a friend was upset. I didn't expect stroking or validation or agreement. This is why it takes me a while to get to know people.

But it's true that maybe we HOPE that people will just know, and are disappointed when they don't, or when the reaction we get is so different from what we were anticipating.