What's with Social Justice Warriors?

[The Cat]

Each side calls out the other as extremist. I just duck out of the crazy food fight (for the most part). Not interested in unproductive yelling, which is what the lot of extremists seem to be mostly interested in.

It seems really bad and weirdly common there in the US, just speaking as an outsider looking in.

Pretty sure this is not what the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles meant when they told us kids to be Radical.

 

[Earl Grey]

There certainly are, as both sides are populated by infallible human beings. If you compare an extremist shouting about the need to be inclusive and end discrimination, though, with one who wants to limit rights across the spectrum, or for certain subsets of it, they are not equivalent. Their manner and methods may be equally off-putting, but the underlying messages are quite different.

It is interesting that extremist behavior seems to garner one side more followers, but the other simply more criticism and dismissal. It is probably extrapolating too far to suggest that this says something about their followers.

This gets infuriating when it gets buried under the buzzwords of "You're an extremist!" - an ad hominem or red herring cop out answer to shift attention from the main message any side is trying to make. It's like trying to talk to children. No matter how much you try explain they keep screaming the same thing anyway, repeating their presumptions. It looks so exhausting. I agree also with the second paragraph.

Again as an outsider, it's a bit of a mystery to me why a lot of people seem to each side to different standards. They are lenient and apologetic to their own and assume the worst of the other instead of looking at the facts of the situation, understanding it, and counteracting their arguments properly. Vegan? Must be a crazy SJW! Muslims? Oh holy shit they have bombs! The left is opening their mouth again? I know what they're going to say! COMMUNISM!

No dialogue. That's just nuts.

Pretty sure this is not what the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles meant when they told us kids to be Radical.

This brings back fond memories of the time folks would say "That's radical!" with positive connotations. This word's meaning has been perverted so badly.

 

[The Cat]

This gets infuriating when it gets buried under the buzzwords of "You're an extremist!" - an ad hominem or red herring cop out answer to shift attention from the main message any side is trying to make. It's like trying to talk to children. No matter how much you try explain they keep screaming the same thing anyway, repeating their presumptions. It looks so exhausting. I agree also with the second paragraph.

Again as an outsider, it's a bit of a mystery to me why a lot of people seem to each side to different standards. They are lenient and apologetic to their own and assume the worst of the other instead of looking at the facts of the situation, understanding it, and counteracting their arguments properly. Vegan? Must be a crazy SJW! Muslims? Oh holy shit they have bombs! The left is opening their mouth again? I know what they're going to say! COMMUNISM!

No dialogue. That's just nuts.




This brings back fond memories of the time folks would say "That's radical!" with positive connotations. This word's meaning has been perverted so badly.

What one does not know, one fears...what one fears, one tries to destroy.

 

[BlackCat]

Each side calls out the other as extremist. I just duck out of the crazy food fight (for the most part). Not interested in unproductive yelling, which is what the lot of extremists seem to be mostly interested in.

It seems really bad and weirdly common there in the US, just speaking as an outsider looking in.

Trust me, as a US citizen I have seen the growing and highly concerning trends. Social issues are wildly different in other countries, and it seems like a lot of these people don't know much about the world outside of their own little bubble, and simultaneously judge the hell out of anyone outside of it.

The conversations are 99% unproductive to have, and I believe it's because no side is humanizing the other. It starts with blame and assumptions about one's character, without really getting to know anyone first. People are quite civil if you just treat them like a normal person most of the time, and not as some representation of whoever they vote for. And I say this as a LGBT citizen who lives in a highly conservative and religious part of the country. I have friends from all over the political spectrum, it simply isn't important to me past a certain point. You've got to think, this is how civil wars start. The rich are turning the poor against each other with their ideologies; and many people are getting swept up in this and are none the wiser. It frustrates me to no end.

There certainly are, as both sides are populated by infallible human beings. If you compare an extremist shouting about the need to be inclusive and end discrimination, though, with one who wants to limit rights across the spectrum, or for certain subsets of it, they are not equivalent. Their manner and methods may be equally off-putting, but the underlying messages are quite different.

It is interesting that extremist behavior seems to garner one side more followers, but the other simply more criticism and dismissal. It is probably extrapolating too far to suggest that this says something about their followers.

I think it may also have to do with the kinds of people who actively seek out this kind of content to react to as well. I was simply playing devil's advocate in saying that, by the way. It is reprehensible for any political entity to control what a woman decides to do with her body, and to control who you decide to spend private time with. It's insanely ridiculous when put so simply.

I see fault in extreme liberals because they are extremely aggravating and aggressive about their message. If one single thing does not line up with these certain people's mindsets and/or world views, they trip out and will accuse you of any number of things. This aggression needs to be used a bit more intelligently, and in a way that nourishes and humanizes others. Because that's the whole point of their message in the first place.

 

[Coriolis]

Trust me, as a US citizen I have seen the growing and highly concerning trends. Social issues are wildly different in other countries, and it seems like a lot of these people don't know much about the world outside of their own little bubble, and simultaneously judge the hell out of anyone outside of it.

The conversations are 99% unproductive to have, and I believe it's because no side is humanizing the other. It starts with blame and assumptions about one's character, without really getting to know anyone first. People are quite civil if you just treat them like a normal person most of the time, and not as some representation of whoever they vote for. And I say this as a LGBT citizen who lives in a highly conservative and religious part of the country. I have friends from all over the political spectrum, it simply isn't important to me past a certain point. You've got to think, this is how civil wars start. The rich are turning the poor against each other with their ideologies; and many people are getting swept up in this and are none the wiser. It frustrates me to no end.



I think it may also have to do with the kinds of people who actively seek out this kind of content to react to as well. I was simply playing devil's advocate in saying that, by the way. It is reprehensible for any political entity to control what a woman decides to do with her body, and to control who you decide to spend private time with. It's insanely ridiculous when put so simply.

I see fault in extreme liberals because they are extremely aggravating and aggressive about their message. If one single thing does not line up with these certain people's mindsets and/or world views, they trip out and will accuse you of any number of things. This aggression needs to be used a bit more intelligently, and in a way that nourishes and humanizes others. Because that's the whole point of their message in the first place.

I don't disagree. I was pointing out simply that, when liberals act extreme, they are generally and legitimately criticised for behavior that will obscure their message. When conservatives, especially Trump supporters, act extreme, their followers take encouragement from this. It seems almost that the medium (the extremist methods) ARE a key part of the message. One of the great errors in assessing Trump was to think that he and his supporters would eventually see the need to rein in the behavior, the better to get their message across.

 

[BlackCat]

I don't disagree. I was pointing out simply that, when liberals act extreme, they are generally and legitimately criticised for behavior that will obscure their message. When conservatives, especially Trump supporters, act extreme, their followers take encouragement from this. It seems almost that the medium (the extremist methods) ARE a key part of the message. One of the great errors in assessing Trump was to think that he and his supporters would eventually see the need to rein in the behavior, the better to get their message across.

I think you're absolutely right about this too. They want to strong-arm the country to get their ways, because of how ass backwards they are. So extreme measures are needed.

Lots of this rubs me the wrong way because I see the influence of social media at play on both sides. Social media culture is basically American culture now. Influencers have figured out how to abuse the popular site's algorithms in order to reach the most people, and so they work and act in a very specific way. Many of these vocal people are also heavily connected to social media, and are trying to copy what their favorite influencers do. Outrage gets views, uproar makes ad revenue go up, and Twitter and Google know exactly how to manipulate people and keep people in the same kind of content circles these days. They are fiscally obliged to keep this status quo, and keep up traffic on their websites. So the trend will only get worse, in my opinion.

I view the social media culture as an evolution of celebrity worship, in a way. Followers look up to these influencers in a similar, parasocial way. So they are doing what they think is right, because these people that they look up to are doing the "right thing" in their minds. Based on how they're presenting their points. Fake news and clickbaity headlines tie into this as well, but I don't think I need to bother explaining why or how.

What a strange consequence to the world becoming interconnected with the internet. This is how I think the modern SJW was born. It's so unsettling to me because of how people are playing right into the rich's hands. We are easier to manipulate when we are torn as a country, and we've seen the consequences of that in recent years.

 

[The Cat]

I think you're absolutely right about this too. They want to strong-arm the country to get their ways, because of how ass backwards they are. So extreme measures are needed.

Lots of this rubs me the wrong way because I see the influence of social media at play on both sides. Social media culture is basically American culture now. Influencers have figured out how to abuse the popular site's algorithms in order to reach the most people, and so they work and act in a very specific way. Many of these vocal people are also heavily connected to social media, and are trying to copy what their favorite influencers do. Outrage gets views, uproar makes ad revenue go up, and Twitter and Google know exactly how to manipulate people and keep people in the same kind of content circles these days. They are fiscally obliged to keep this status quo, and keep up traffic on their websites. So the trend will only get worse, in my opinion.

I view the social media culture as an evolution of celebrity worship, in a way. Followers look up to these influencers in a similar, parasocial way. So they are doing what they think is right, because these people that they look up to are doing the "right thing" in their minds. Based on how they're presenting their points. Fake news and clickbaity headlines tie into this as well, but I don't think I need to bother explaining why or how.

What a strange consequence to the world becoming interconnected with the internet. This is how I think the modern SJW was born. It's so unsettling to me because of how people are playing right into the rich's hands. We are easier to manipulate when we are torn as a country, and we've seen the consequences of that in recent years.

It really does feel like theyre trying to get some sort of purge to happen it's maddening to think how much more effective the american people would be united over a common goal of enlightened self interest at least, rather than tearing each other apart over made up differences someone else told them they had.

 

[BlackCat]

It really does feel like theyre trying to get some sort of purge to happen it's maddening to think how much more effective the american people would be united over a common goal of enlightened self interest at least, rather than tearing each other apart over made up differences someone else told them they had.

For sure. The rabbit hole goes even deeper too. Because advertisers outright control/try to control what content we see, from career Youtubers being demonetized, to targeted ads, you name it. This all ties in with the algorithms, and targeted content too. They keep making more and more money off of it too as time goes on. Sure feels good living in a post Net Neutrality nation.

 

[The Cat]

For sure. The rabbit hole goes even deeper too. Because advertisers outright control/try to control what content we see, from career Youtubers being demonetized, to targeted ads, you name it. This all ties in with the algorithms, and targeted content too. They keep making more and more money off of it too as time goes on. Sure feels good living in a post Net Neutrality nation.

I was hoping dystopia would have more neon and day glo-_-

 

[The Cat]

 

[prplchknz]

I was hoping dystopia would have more neon and day glo-_-

you just need to tag stuff with neon spray paint

 

[FemMecha]

One observation I've made about the Left vs. Right in the U.S. might be useful for further discussion. People in general have a hard time seeing the big picture and taking everything into account. People also have a tendency towards selective perception, so if you imagine each person's world view is like Swiss cheese with varying degrees of holes in it (and having the humility to realize this can be true even of people who have intellectual integrity to attempt balanced, big picture thinking), you then realize that each side can see the same issue or politician through vastly different distortions - depending on what is emphasized or overlooked.

I think it is important to encourage people towards big picture thinking, but to also accommodate the fact this is limited in human thought. This would pertain to social issues, but it struck me with particular clarity about environmental issues. I've noticed the Left will tend to focus on a detail that effects the big picture, but is still a fragment and limited in contribution. For example, straws. When it was discovered that these cause more problem as a pollutant than realized before, I had a number of liberal friends putting peer pressure to get people to stop using straws. I could appreciate it in theory, but could also understand why it could seem relatively hopeless to solve a problem and more a stance for moralizing. Culturally, I think people on the Right could accept an approach to the environment equally fragmented, but focused more on their local community. I think we need to give people constructive fragments that hit closer to home and have greater pragmatism and less socially defined moralizing.

When it comes to social issues there is a negative side to needing to view relevance of an issue through the lens of its impact on a local community and individual life, which is more of a mindset of the Right. The problem is that not all social issues occur at the local level. For example a rural, working class person on the Right may not knowingly have someone transgendered in their personal life, so that issue isn't real to them. The problem is the issue IS real for many, but they may perceive it much like the straw issue. In the working class, rural American, there is a tendency for reality to not exist outside of literal, individual experience and community, so these global issues need to be deconstructed down to that level.

It is helpful to think of this like an educator where you have to break down concepts into smaller pieces that people can comprehend and also show practical ways their effort will apply to their life. In the same manner students have tended to reject subjects where they say, "when will I ever use this in my life?", big picture thinking needs to be translated in a way people can understand through the limited lens of personal experience. The bottom line is that the two sides tend to fragment information differently and while the Left holds more of a value of global and wholistic thinking, it does not always apply and communicate it as such because it is also compromised of humans with limited, fragmented brains with selective perception.

No one enjoys being looked down on, and I think the rural, working class Right can feel like the Left finds abstracts and irrelevant issues to grand stand and moralize about as an excuse to look down on them. I'm not saying that is what is happening, but I think it can be seen that way. I am personally still horrified by Trump, but he was looked down on through the moralizing lens (with good reason), but I think that appealed to the demographic I refer to because they can feel like they spend their life working hard, with limited gains, and then the Left look down on them for reasons they don't feel are part of their life and experience but used as an excuse to disrespect them.

 

[The Cat]

One observation I've made about the Left vs. Right in the U.S. might be useful for further discussion. People in general have a hard time seeing the big picture and taking everything into account. People also have a tendency towards selective perception, so if you imagine each person's world view is like Swiss cheese with varying degrees of holes in it (and having the humility to realize this can be true even of people who have intellectual integrity to attempt balanced, big picture thinking), you then realize that each side can see the same issue or politician through vastly different distortions - depending on what is emphasized or overlooked.

I think it is important to encourage people towards big picture thinking, but to also accommodate the fact this is limited in human thought. This would pertain to social issues, but it struck me with particular clarity about environmental issues. I've noticed the Left will tend to focus on a detail that effects the big picture, but is still a fragment and limited in contribution. For example, straws. When it was discovered that these cause more problem as a pollutant than realized before, I had a number of liberal friends putting peer pressure to get people to stop using straws. I could appreciate it in theory, but could also understand why it could seem relatively hopeless to solve a problem and more a stance for moralizing. Culturally, I think people on the Right could accept an approach to the environment equally fragmented, but focused more on their local community. I think we need to give people constructive fragments that hit closer to home and have greater pragmatism and less socially defined moralizing.

When it comes to social issues there is a negative side to needing to view relevance of an issue through the lens of its impact on a local community and individual life, which is more of a mindset of the Right. The problem is that not all social issues occur at the local level. For example a rural, working class person on the Right may not knowingly have someone transgendered in their personal life, so that issue isn't real to them. The problem is the issue IS real for many, but they may perceive it much like the straw issue. In the working class, rural American, there is a tendency for reality to not exist outside of literal, individual experience and community, so these global issues need to be deconstructed down to that level.

It is helpful to think of this like an educator where you have to break down concepts into smaller pieces that people can comprehend and also show practical ways their effort will apply to their life. In the same manner students have tended to reject subjects where they say, "when will I ever use this in my life?", big picture thinking needs to be translated in a way people can understand through the limited lens of personal experience. The bottom line is that the two sides tend to fragment information differently and while the Left holds more of a value of global and wholistic thinking, it does not always apply and communicate it as such because it is also compromised of humans with limited, fragmented brains with selective perception.

No one enjoys being looked down on, and I think the rural, working class Right can feel like the Left finds abstracts and irrelevant issues to grand stand and moralize about as an excuse to look down on them. I'm not saying that is what is happening, but I think it can be seen that way. I am personally still horrified by Trump, but he was looked down on through the moralizing lens (with good reason), but I think that appealed to the demographic I refer to because they can feel like they spend their life working hard, with limited gains, and then the Left look down on them for reasons they don't feel are part of their life and experience but used as an excuse to disrespect them.

so like just a big misunderstanding?

 

[FemMecha]

so like just a big misunderstanding?

In part buut please realize I am focusing on one subset of the demographic on the Right. The entitled Wall Street trust fund babies inspire little hope in me. There are also problems in working class culture but negotiation and working towards understanding this group is important to move forward.

 

[ceecee]

In part buut please realize I am focusing on one subset of the demographic on the Right. The entitled Wall Street trust fund babies inspire little hope in me. There are also problems in working class culture but negotiation and working towards understanding this group is important to move forward.

Isn't everyone? The media had been hammering it for YEARS - understand the Trump voters, understand the right. The right - I mean the one you are referring to - rural, white, working class - gets to sit back wait for everyone to understand them. No effort whatsoever on their part at all and it's entirely acceptable. I never hear that perhaps THEY need to take even a single step towards understanding any of the people that aren't mostly like them. But this...

For example a rural, working class person on the Right may not knowingly have someone transgendered in their personal life, so that issue isn't real to them.

Is precisely why most people are done with them. They simply assume the people they don't know and have never met don't exist/aren't real. Why is that moral failing not being addressed? I don't know any Native Americans/Indigenous Americans living in Oklahoma. But I'm not going to say -because *I* have no experience with them or know any of them personally, they don't exist. Listen to how that sounds for one second.

I am wholly tired of the excuses put forth at every level to "understand the right". No. Not until they start making some effort. This country doesn't belong to them alone. The other thing I will say is that there are working people all over the country that aren't on the right. But many of them are fighting for the betterment of all working people, including those on the right who vote and think 100% against working people (ant-union, anti-labor, pro-business) when they themselves are working people and will always be. I have yet to hear one labor minded person even mention geography, race or anything other than being a worker. But those people are on the left, frequently VERY left. And yet they are told to do all the heavy lifting that comes with "understanding". Nah.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Because labor minded leftists aren’t preoccupied with petty race and gender divisions

 

[The Cat]

Because labor minded leftists aren’t preoccupied with petty race and gender divisions

This.

 

[prplchknz]

I accidentally read this thread as Cats with Social Justice. I was like that's unlikely to happen cats are mostly out for themselves. Don't get me wrong cats are great but i don't see them leading a BLM protest

 

[BlackCat]

Because labor minded leftists aren’t preoccupied with petty race and gender divisions

Mind elaborating? I think I may fit this mold.

 

[FemMecha]

Isn't everyone? The media had been hammering it for YEARS - understand the Trump voters, understand the right. The right - I mean the one you are referring to - rural, white, working class - gets to sit back wait for everyone to understand them. No effort whatsoever on their part at all and it's entirely acceptable. I never hear that perhaps THEY need to take even a single step towards understanding any of the people that aren't mostly like them. But this... Is precisely why most people are done with them. They simply assume the people they don't know and have never met don't exist/aren't real. Why is that moral failing not being addressed? I don't know any Native Americans/Indigenous Americans living in Oklahoma. But I'm not going to say -because *I* have no experience with them or know any of them personally, they don't exist. Listen to how that sounds for one second. I am wholly tired of the excuses put forth at every level to "understand the right". No. Not until they start making some effort. This country doesn't belong to them alone. The other thing I will say is that there are working people all over the country that aren't on the right. But many of them are fighting for the betterment of all working people, including those on the right who vote and think 100% against working people (ant-union, anti-labor, pro-business) when they themselves are working people and will always be. I have yet to hear one labor minded person even mention geography, race or anything other than being a worker. But those people are on the left, frequently VERY left. And yet they are told to do all the heavy lifting that comes with "understanding". Nah.

If I'm addressing the demographic I mentioned here then I would encourage them in the direction you mention. We can't control that culture but are surrounded by them. There are different individuals within it with differing capacities for growth, but as a group what do you propose as a solution to change their mindset?

Edit: Actually, ceecee I haven't been exposed to all that marketing, but it makes perfect sense that everyone is focusing on the "working class" because they are potentially the demographic with the most integrity, but guess what? They do not have the microphone. The Right media might cherry-pick a few for an interview, but they are potentially the justifying demographic, but they are being used as a notion without necessarily being given a voice. It is the bratty, rich, Wall Street crowd doing all the talking, and they thrown in some people with issues who are poor to reiterate. There is also a psycho demographic with the conspiracy theories that pushes itself forward, but I am still hoping for the group that is too busy working and raising their families to be shouting into the microphone. The true working class are really, really, busy and really, really tired. If they are shown some respect, maybe there is some good to come out of it, and to reiterate again I do not mean the trust fund babies and the conspiracy psychos. I mean the ones busy fixing cars, farming, doing janitorial work, etc. trying to live their lives and survive it.