What Type Is Highlander?

[rav3n]

*Laughs at enneagram-8-style response*

*Wonders if Highlander finally realizes the difference*

Yeah, it was kind of typical, wasn't it. *shakes head at self*

One word. Aggression.

 

[Forever_Jung]

This post demonstrates exactly why I think the enneagram system is a bit inferior to MBTI (at least in my case).

I'm a more-extroverted-than-normal INTJ, you could very well call me an xNTJ, but I am, if I had to choose one, an introvert.

I also have come to believe that I'm an enneagram 5, although I thought I was an 8w9 to begin with.

I came out Sx/So on a test, but I don't know whether to believe it; I probably am Sx, though, just not sure about Sx/Sp or Sx/So.

And see, I'd say I can be "spacey" or "in your face", depending on whether I'm extroverting or introverting more.

It's not an issue of being spacey and not being able to be in your face; it's an issue of which one I happen to be at any one time (whether by choice, or not).

I might tend to be more spacey than in your face, but it's not just one or the other; it often comes down to a choice as to which style will accomplish my goals.

If I wanna contemplate all the different perspectives of a matter, I'll use more Ni; if I wanna get in your face to get something done, I'll use more Te.

MBTI provides a very clear and simple language for this; enneagram seems to create a bit too much of a false dichotomy, imo.

Also, I can be a very direct communicator: once again, it's all about the extent to which I'm utilizing Te...

Well...I hesitate to argue but: I think (maybe) one reason you are dissatisfied with the Enneagram is because you are looking at it the wrong way. It isn't trying to be the same thing as MBTI. Actually, The Enneagram isn't really about a set personality to be applied to a person. It's more like 9 styles of coping mechanisms. The idea is that most of us often fall back on the same style too much. We often do this because it plays to our strengths and feels comfortable, but it can also get us stuck in a rut and perpetuate unhealthy loops. However, some people aren't as prone to this, so find it hard to identify with one description. But the Enneagram isn't necessarily asking for you to pigeonhole yourself. Really, it is trying to say that we should learn to use all of the styles (or at least more than one) to lead a happier, more well-rounded life. That is why there is so much more focus on movement/growth and interconnectedness in the system.

 

[Jaguar]

They should clarify this in their theory

The operative word being, "their."

There are many books written on the enneagram by various authors and there isn't just one way to look at it.
I don't suggest anyone confine their thinking to: Riso-Hudson = Enneagram.
Due to the popularity of Riso-Hudson and their material online, I think people refrain from seeking other valuable sources of information - to their own detriment.

 

[Zarathustra]

They claim that it's too foreign to try to integrate these lateral movements but claim that their "move in the direction of integration" aka for an 8, a 2 is more natural. For myself, this is how many piles of inaccuracies. A 2 movement defies Fi.

Metaphor, I'm just gunna be straight up and honest with you about this, cuz I've noticed you saying this for awhile, and I haven't said anything about it yet.

You have inferior Fi. I stress the inferior.

You seem to have a hang-up about the healthy enneagram 8 descriptions, and thus the healthy enneagram 2 descriptions, as, to you, putting importance on helping others is in conflict with your Fi.

But this will not tend to be a conflict for someone with well-developed Fi. These people will tend not to see a problem with putting some kind of stock in helping others.

You, however, due partially to your Fi being in the inferior position, along with many other possible reasons (birth order, life experience, culture, et al), seems to have a major problem with it (enough so, that you've made a thread about it to air your grievances).

I want to suggest to you that this has to do with you having poor facility with Fi, and that, if you were to better develop your Fi, this would much less the case, not more.

As such, it would seem that better development of your Fi might actually be highly correlated with you growing into those healthier levels of enneagram 8.

I hope you can realize this is not a personal insult or attach, but is just one NTJ telling another what he believes to be the straight-up truth.

 

[rav3n]

The operative word being, "their."

There are many books written on the enneagram by various authors and there isn't just one way to look at it.
I don't suggest anyone confine their thinking to: Riso = Enneagram.
Due to the popularity of Riso-Hudson and their material online, I think people refrain from seeking other valuable sources of information - to their own detriment.

I have read others but not all and not in their completeness for all types. As far as to their detriment, that remains to be seen since we're all individuals, with individual concepts of self-actualisation. It's for the same reason I don't subscribe to any guru's vision of existential enlightenment, particularly when it entails (of which most do) separating the mind from the physical body. I believe to self-actualise, you need to embrace and integrate both.

 

[Zarathustra]

Well...I hesitate to argue but: I think (maybe) one reason you are dissatisfied with the Enneagram is because you are looking at it the wrong way. It isn't trying to be the same thing as MBTI. Actually, The Enneagram isn't really about a set personality to be applied to a person. It's more like 9 styles of coping mechanisms. The idea is that most of us often fall back on the same style too much. We often do this because it plays to our strengths and feels comfortable, but it can also get us stuck in a rut and perpetuate unhealthy loops. However, some people aren't as prone to this, so find it hard to identify with one description. But the Enneagram isn't necessarily asking for you to pigeonhole yourself. Really, it is trying to say that we should learn to use all of the styles (or at least more than one) to lead a happier, more well-rounded life. That is why there is so much more focus on movement/growth and interconnectedness in the system.

Note taken.

I seem to have read very similar things in multiple places in the last week, so your post just lends more credence to these notions.

No need to hesitate, and I don't feel you were arguing, FJ. As always, your thoughts are highly appreciated.

 

[rav3n]

Metaphor, I'm just gunna be straight up and honest with you about this, cuz I've noticed you saying this for awhile, and I haven't said anything about it yet.

You have inferior Fi. I stress the inferior.

You seem to have a hang-up about the healthy enneagram 8 descriptions, and thus the healthy enneagram 2 descriptions, as, to you, putting importance on helping others is in conflict with your Fi.

But this will not tend to be a conflict for someone with strong Fi. These people will tend not to see a problem with putting some kind of stock in helping others.

Your Fi, however, due partially to being in the inferior position, along with many other possible reasons (birth order, life experience, culture, etc.), seems to have a major problem with it (enough so, that you've made a thread about it to air your grievances).

I want to suggest to you that this has to do with poor facility with Fi, and that, if you were to better develop your Fi, this would much less the case, not more.

I hope you can realize this is not a personal insult or attach, but is just one NTJ telling another what he believes to be the straight-up truth.

Nope. Not offended. Your honest opinion is appreciated. But I do disagree. It has to do with Fe.

Don't get me wrong. I do help people and have done so on this site. But I do it on my own time and will and not in any Fe-based societally structured way.

 

[highlander]

You can be who ever the hell you want to be. The map is not the territory.

I like that.

Q: "I was talking with some Enneagram friends recently, and they were saying that they disagreed with your idea that we only go to the "high end" of the type in our Direction of Integration, and that we only go to the "low end" of the type in our Direction of Disintegration. I told them that this was not your view, and that you had a more complete theory. I know that you taught about this at the Part I Training, but I could still use some clarification. How can I explain this to my friends?"

Full article is here:

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/articles/NArtLevels.asp

Perhaps it's my ignorance but I have to say that I read all this stuff and it sounds a bit like gibberish. One problem I have with this system are the linkages and dependencies between the types. It seems arbitrary to me.

*Laughs at enneagram-8-style response*

*Wonders if Highlander finally realizes the difference*

I wouldn't confuse natural tendencies and learned diplomacy.

Well...I hesitate to argue but: I think (maybe) one reason you are dissatisfied with the Enneagram is because you are looking at it the wrong way. It isn't trying to be the same thing as MBTI. Actually, The Enneagram isn't really about a set personality to be applied to a person. It's more like 9 styles of coping mechanisms. The idea is that most of us often fall back on the same style too much. We often do this because it plays to our strengths and feels comfortable, but it can also get us stuck in a rut and perpetuate unhealthy loops. However, some people aren't as prone to this, so find it hard to identify with one description. But the Enneagram isn't necessarily asking for you to pigeonhole yourself. Really, it is trying to say that we should learn to use all of the styles (or at least more than one) to lead a happier, more well-rounded life. That is why there is so much more focus on movement/growth and interconnectedness in the system.

It seems to be more about a coping mechanism than a personality type in my opinion. I've been influenced by what Pat Wyman has to write and knowing about MBTI for a lot longer than Enneagram though.

 

[highlander]

 

[Forever_Jung]

It seems to be more about a coping mechanism than a personality type in my opinion. I've been influenced by what Pat Wyman has to write and knowing about MBTI for a lot longer than Enneagram though.

The way you're presenting this, it seems to me like you are disagreeing, but the words themselves seem like they are agreeing with me.

Clarification?

Edit regarding your type correlation chart: Considering e9 is roughly correlated with a Si-style, I find it odd (but true) that IFP's are the most common 9 typing.

 

[Jaguar]

I believe to self-actualise, you need to embrace and integrate both.

That's my view on Fe and Fi.

 

[rav3n]

That's my view on Fe and Fi.

Yes it is but these are your values. Whether they become or remain my values post value housekeeping, remains to be seen.

 

[Zarathustra]

Nope. Not offended. Your honest opinion is appreciated. But I do disagree. It has to do with Fe.

Don't get me wrong. I do help people and have done so on this site. But I do it on my own time and will and not in any Fe-based societally structured way.

I've edited my response a little bit since my first post, so it might be helpful to give it one more quick glance (sorry, I do that a lot...).

I understand what you mean, and I understand how the description of the healthy levels of 8s can seem very Fe.

But it can also be very Fi, when Fi is directed towards actually caring about others and society.

There is nothing about Fi that is inherently against helping others and society for altruistic reasons.

I understand where you're coming from, feeling like its Fe being forced upon you.

Trust me, I know exactly what you're referring to...

But please trust me also that tertiary and inferior Fi can have a sort of knee-jerk reaction to what seems like what you're calling an "Fe-based societally structured way" being forced upon you.

What you need to realize is that, with Fi as your inferior function, Fe is actually your most suppressed function of all, and as such, MBTI would predict exactly what you’re doing: having a knee-jerk reaction against anything that smells of Fe being forced upon you.

I completely know where you’re coming from, cuz I am the same way (as we all know from my interactions here); but, from one TJ to another (which matters, because, as TJs, by definition, we tend to suppress Fe to a significant degree [into our last 7-8 functions]), I can assure you, you’re allowing your suppression of Fe to get to you and impede the message the healthier levels of the enneagram 8 is trying to send.

I know this because the people who have the greatest problem with this are the ETJs (followed by the ITJs), and, on this whole bender, you’ve reminded me of a Chinese-born, highly successful, ExTJ female friend of mine.

Were you born/raised in China, or the US? Where do you actually live now? I’ve never been quite sure (although it seems like the US)…

 

[rav3n]

Z, refer to your rep from me. Don't really want to discuss this in the open. It's less about the processes themselves and more about value housekeeping. But the processes themselves can also be considered values. And anyways, I'm starting to lean towards tossing out function order.

People who know me in real life call me a banana. Yellow on the outside, white on the inside.

 

[Zarathustra]

Done.

 

[highlander]

The way you're presenting this, it seems to me like you are disagreeing, but the words themselves seem like they are agreeing with me.

Clarification?

Edit regarding your type correlation chart: Considering e9 is roughly correlated with a Si-style, I find it odd (but true) that IFP's are the most common 9 typing.

I guess I mostly agree with you . The connections in the system though - the integration and disintegration stuff - the sequencing of these things which is a set order - I don't know. That's the part that seems contrived to me.

 

[highlander]

Poll added

 

[Jaguar]

Yes it is but these are your values.

No, they are not. Fe and Fi are Jungian mental processes. Maybe one day you can tell some of us what your issue is with society. You've brought it up so many times I have lost count. Just chanting, "Fe" throughout threads without explaining what is fueling your aggression, doesn't really serve a purpose. It's like watching someone shout, "cucumber" everywhere they go, without explaining why they're doing it. We used to have a member here who did the same thing with Fi. Every chance he got, he would start a thread to whine about Fi. Lol.

I think if people just cut the pretense and came right out and said what is on their minds, silly phrases like this would be a thing of the past:

"Oh, yeaaaaah?!!!! Don't YOU project your 6th function on my 7th function!!!!!"

"Owwww you hurt my Fi!!!! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah."

" Take your Fe and shove it, baby!!!!"

 

[rav3n]

No, they are not. Fe and Fi are Jungian mental processes. Maybe one day you can tell some of us what your issue is with society. You've brought it up so many times I have lost count. Just chanting, "Fe" throughout threads without explaining what is fueling your aggression, doesn't really serve a purpose. We used to have a member here who did the same thing with Fi. Every chance he got, he would start a thread to whine about it. Lol.

I think if people just cut the pretense and came right out and said what is on their minds, silly phrases like this would be a thing of the past:

"Oh, yeaaaaah?!!!! Don't YOU project your 6th function on my 7th function!!!!!"

"Owwww you hurt my Fi!!!! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah."

" Take your Fe and shove it, baby!!!!"

Refer to post #94 for my explanation. No doubt I do use the names of processes as crutches/nouns to describe different things. Most often it's in humour. But sometimes it's in seriousness. And I do disagree with you about the importance of Fe as a process. So, at present, Fe holds no value in my value database. Can't say it won't in the future. But you might want to also take a hard look at your own value database and see if it too, has unnecessary baggage in it.

 

[Jaguar]

Refer to post #94 for my explanation. No doubt I do use the names of processes as crutches/nouns to describe different things. Most often it's in humour. But sometimes it's in seriousness. And I do disagree with you about the importance of Fe as a process. So, at present, Fe holds no value in my value database.

Define Fe.