What is the hardest thing about being a man?

[highlander]

I think many women don't understand that men feel loved when they are appreciated and recognized for what they do, as well as encouraged to pursue their goals. Let's say a man does some work around the home, then mows the lawn, then later that evening tells her about some stressful stuff at work, and finally tells her that he's thinking about starting a side job to make more money and also be able to do something he enjoys. If she is even remotely distracted for whatever reason and doesn't intently listen to him and support his decision, then he will feel unappreciated and unsupported, which will lead to feelings of inadequacy masked as bitterness, anger, and withdrawal. She may not have intended to make him feel that way, but that's what happens. Then, she notices his distance and starts to wonder what's wrong and tends to try to fix the problem by trying to get closer to him, which only makes him withdraw more. Then, she gets angry and, well, you see where this is going. We've probably all been there in some fashion or another.

The solution really is as simple as learning about the opposite sex and how to communicate and offer the other a safe, judgement free zone.

As [MENTION=29457]Abendrot[/MENTION] said, it is deeper than this. It's not being about remotely distracted and being not appreciated and listened to in the moment. Both sexes do that kind of thing. It's more about men not being valued by women period. They are dead last as the video said. They are mostly of value to the extent that they are working and producing at home or on a job. As someone who has been on the high end of the producer scale and low end in my distant past, I can feel it acutely, and it's about what you have done lately. You are basically disposable. It seems to be very much ingrained in society and getting worse over the years to the point where some women have been developing an attitude of hostility and disdain. It's like being a frog in a boiling pot of water. You don't really notice it because it is so gradual but if you sit up and notice, you see the changing temperature. Its hard to say what this will to society do but my guess is a lot of guys will decide to forgo marriage because it is a less attractive value proposition than it once once. I can see a lot more people in society being unhappy because of these trends. I'm not sure what is causing it.

 

[Litsnob]

A necessary evil, I think. This kind of stuff makes them tougher.

Are you saying you advocate making boys into men and making men tough by being critical, expecting them to never cry or show any feelings and just stuff it all inside. All that 'be a man' stuff?

 

[geedoenfj]

I never had a close relationship with my parents, but I would say I have a closer relationship with my ESTJ 9w8 dad, just seeing him dealing with the abuse that mom has put on him over the years is just harsh enough, or my grandmother used to put on my grandfather, or my aunt is putting on her husband..
I once had the courage to ask my dad how can he take all of that and choose to stay with her, he said: "I take my commitments very seriously, I don't walk out on the middle of it, and I know there's no man can ever handle being with her"

My ENFJ 8w7 cousin is married to an abusive ESFJ wife and I was a witness of all kind of abuses that she puts on him, but since her family and friends have cut her off, or she cut them off, she has no one left but him, that's why he's staying with her, taking all that crap which I'm still astonished that he's still willing to put up with..

I don't know if I agree with them, I had taken abuses from my husband but suck it up, the last time we had a fight he pushed me on the shoulder, it's obviously evolving, but I'm still committed to my marriage..

Don't hate men because it's unhealthy, you don't hate women or men, we're all human beings struggling with life

 

[Litsnob]

As [MENTION=29457]Abendrot[/MENTION] said, it is deeper than this. It's not being about remotely distracted and being not appreciated and listened to in the moment. Both sexes do that kind of thing. It's more about men not being valued by women period. They are dead last as the video said. They are mostly of value to the extent that they are working and producing at home or on a job. As someone who has been on the high end of the producer scale and low end in my distant past, I can feel it acutely, and it's about what you have done lately. You are basically disposable. It seems to be very much ingrained in society and getting worse over the years to the point where some women have been developing an attitude of hostility and disdain. It's like being a frog in a boiling pot of water. You don't really notice it because it is so gradual but if you sit up and notice, you see the changing temperature. Its hard to say what this will to society do but my guess is a lot of guys will decide to forgo marriage because it is a less attractive value proposition than it once once. I can see a lot more people in society being unhappy because of these trends. I'm not sure what is causing it.

Perhaps there is still a great deal of tension and difficult in the transition period of redefining gender roles. As a non-US North American, the US has always seemed to me to have a very macho man ideal, the cowboy, the tough guy and there will be both men and women who object to or cannot cope with shifting away from that or making that only one option for what a man is. We are still unsettled in understanding women's roles too and women fight amongst each other calling each other anti-feminist and regressive, blaming men or shaming masculinity instead of championing choices and differences. Men and women have valued each other for the wrong reasons or for reasons that become outdated. It seems to me that as long as people keep pushing for changes, society will always be a bit behind.

 

[Agent Washington]

Perhaps there is still a great deal of tension and difficult in the transition period of redefining gender roles. As a non-US North American, the US has always seemed to me to have a very macho man ideal, the cowboy, the tough guy and there will be both men and women who object to or cannot cope with shifting away from that or making that only one option for what a man is. We are still unsettled in understanding women's roles too and women fight amongst each other calling each other anti-feminist and regressive, blaming men or shaming masculinity instead of championing choices and differences. Men and women have valued each other for the wrong reasons or for reasons that become outdated. It seems to me that as long as people keep pushing for changes, society will always be a bit behind.

I keep looking at history for precedents, and I can honestly say that one of the things that remain the same is that people will always be people, and there's no such thing as societal or humanity's progression.

But yes, this basically is it. I have a feeling the impression we get of America is largely dominated by the news and the internet, so it may perhaps differ in real life, but ...

Not only that, the same thing is up with the men. Working class men don't realise that the roles they ascribe to harm them. Rich men have no incentive to change their minds because it benefits them. We're left with the rest, some of who see, some of whom just flat out reject the very notion that things don't have to be the way they are... etc.

That's where [MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] 's comment about being disposable comes in, at least with regards to heteronormatively defined gender roles where men are defined in relation to the women in their lives.

It's tied to class. You have a stable income, you're a perfect image of masculinity. But right now we live in advanced capitalist economies. The rise of the women's liberation movement came with greater empowerment to choose. Something which, prior to that, only men had. It's a weird link between capitalism and masculinity, but it's there, right there with roots in history. It doesn't even matter what we think. Our value is tied to performativity - what we can do. It is as Slavoj Zizek says about capitalism. The grotesque part is that we have to look like we want it - the only thing we can do is pretend to want something, when the choice is between hot tar and magma. (Paraphrased badly.)

And by god, do people really look like they want it.

MRAs fail men on one front in that they do not truly recognise the reason why men are victims, too. We actually have no good movement. Feminism had roots in womens' liberation and belongs to women. Women's only spaces tend to exclude men, and often for good reason. The result is that we don't have a safe space for men. Those that did exist often have a history of being shut down, as far as I know. And the idea of "safe space" is denigrated by the precise people it could serve, because of the outdated values that they hold onto. And all this finger-pointing. How does that help anybody?

Some of it is self-inflicted. But when you're pressured to act and think a certain way all your life... And honestly, I think tracing historical development is frankly different from finding the source of blame. I hate that this has often become such a charged topic, where the tendency is to look for someone to blame. "History is to blame" - James Joyce

There's a word for this in German that I'm not aware of in English. "Verletzungsoffenheit" - it is a combination of "injury" and "openness". I'm not sure how to define it because the moment I attempt a direct translation, it probably won't fit. Basically, it addresses the idea of men as victims and casualties in gender studies. "Ich dusch nur mit dem Arsch zur Wand": Verletzungsmacht und Verletzungsoffenheit als simultane Konstruktion von Heteronormativitat - Springer

I was surprised when a recent gender studies course has so many lectures centered on men, because ... y'know. Though a lot of it was theory, there were some useful sociological stuff. (And historical stuff.)

But if we look back at the history of womens liberation, we will see that the development of society is always divided. Even if theories and academics are formed, its influence can't be easily predicted. My hope is that the forefront of this research will spearhead ... some kinda change. But honestly, theories are just theories. Studies are where it's at, but it only provides an informative basis upon which to suggest a course of action. What we need are policy changes.

 

[Abendrot]

I'm not sure if I can prescribe any of my issues as gender based, but...

Perhaps at one point in time the expectation of me to raise a family? I mean, my parents stopped this when they realised that wasn't possible for me, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's just a matter of time until friends of my parents will begin to wonder about the whole 'Is he married?' thing yet. And then the 'does he have children yet?' thing. Even if the latter is something I'm rather adamant against, and the former isn't legally binding in my case.

Can't say it's the toughest thing, but it's certainly something.

Hah. I'm anticipating a lot more of the "does he have children?" kind of thing in my future. Mind if I pm you about why you're adamant against having children?
Although, I think women have it worse when it comes to these things. There are reasons why some of them don't like revealing their age.

 

[Abendrot]

Are you saying you advocate making boys into men and making men tough by being critical, expecting them to never cry or show any feelings and just stuff it all inside. All that 'be a man' stuff?

Exactly. I expect them to grow strong and emotionally self sufficient, just as I did. You know, I don't see masculine expectations as a burden, but rather as an honour worth living up to. People have forgotten these days of the greatness and glory to be sought in the masculine ideal.

 

[Agent Washington]

Exactly. I expect them to grow strong and emotionally self sufficient, just as I did. You know, I don't see masculine expectations as a burden, but rather as an honour. People have forgotten these days of the greatness and glory to be sought in the masculine ideal.

Our views are so completely different, that I'm curious how it came to be. Why is it an honour?

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Nothing stands in your way
when you're a boy

Clothes always fit you, they'll never clone you
etc

 

[Peter Deadpan]

As [MENTION=29457]Abendrot[/MENTION] said, it is deeper than this. It's not being about remotely distracted and being not appreciated and listened to in the moment. Both sexes do that kind of thing. It's more about men not being valued by women period. They are dead last as the video said. They are mostly of value to the extent that they are working and producing at home or on a job. As someone who has been on the high end of the producer scale and low end in my distant past, I can feel it acutely, and it's about what you have done lately. You are basically disposable. It seems to be very much ingrained in society and getting worse over the years to the point where some women have been developing an attitude of hostility and disdain. It's like being a frog in a boiling pot of water. You don't really notice it because it is so gradual but if you sit up and notice, you see the changing temperature. Its hard to say what this will to society do but my guess is a lot of guys will decide to forgo marriage because it is a less attractive value proposition than it once once. I can see a lot more people in society being unhappy because of these trends. I'm not sure what is causing it.

That's really interesting and something I don't relate to because I don't feel like this about men. I have been really lucky though because my exes have always been productive around the home (yes, both my last boyfriend AND my narcissistic ex-husband cooked and cleaned -weird, I know). I have never been disappointed with how much money a partner was making, or anything really in line with what we're talking about.

I guess I picked what I picked as an example because I used to be guilty of not giving my ex enough attention/focus (for a myriad of reasons but that's no excuse), and it built up after awhile and he internalized his frustration quite a bit.

 

[Korvinagor]

Hah. I'm anticipating a lot more of the "does he have children?" kind of thing in my future. Mind if I pm you about why you're adamant against having children?
Although, I think women have it worse when it comes to these things. There are reasons why some of them don't like revealing their age.

Not at all! I'll PM you soon.

 

[Tengri]

Perhaps there is still a great deal of tension and difficult in the transition period of redefining gender roles. As a non-US North American, the US has always seemed to me to have a very macho man ideal, the cowboy, the tough guy and there will be both men and women who object to or cannot cope with shifting away from that or making that only one option for what a man is. We are still unsettled in understanding women's roles too and women fight amongst each other calling each other anti-feminist and regressive, blaming men or shaming masculinity instead of championing choices and differences. Men and women have valued each other for the wrong reasons or for reasons that become outdated. It seems to me that as long as people keep pushing for changes, society will always be a bit behind.

I like this line of reasoning and feel similarly. I was having a conversation with a coworker the other day about the Pussyhats Project and anti-Trump rallies and she felt incredulous about what andocentric oppression or institutional misogyny exactly is everyone up in arms about. From her perspective, her entire hospital floor was run by female nurses (and most of the building, for that matter) and a majority of the male doctors heavily rely on their nurse's reports, dosage calculations, and managing their patient loads in general. This viewpoint really struck me, not only because it came from someone I know to be a feminist, but because it helped me see a classic case of how men and women rely on each other. This is a very specific context, though, so it's probably not fair or accurate to assume female autonomy in one industry is reflective of the gender as a whole. In contrast, there's a male music teacher at one of the preschools I have a client at that has his own share of somewhat amorphous challenges. He's a very passive person, overly accommodating to his female coworkers, and I'd best describe his personality as 'water,' or even self-sacrificing. While he's uncomplaining at work, the management and older teachers have little respect for him precisely because his nature isn't gender-typical. I struck up an easy friendship with him in part because I can sympathize with being a lone male in another female-dominated industry and go out of my way to chat with him out of some feeling of solidarity whenever I visit. The most puzzling part is that he's happily married with 3 girls and another on the way and the kids love him at the school, so from my perspective it's a strange irony that a very decent person is so unappreciated. I suppose the thread of my argument is that people just need to learn to stick up for themselves, just like the march against Trump. I agree, it's clear that gender boundaries are becoming more fluid - the mob mentalities of marches aside - and it'll take women and men equal parts to decide what of masculinity and how feminine each can be in equanimity.

 

[Lark]

I thought of some truly awful/bad ways that I could troll this thread but I think it would truly beyond the pail.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I thought of some truly awful/bad ways that I could troll this thread but I think it would truly beyond the pail.

u sound like drumpf at the 1st debate.

"I was going to say something extremely rough to Hillary, to her family, and I said to myself, 'I can't do it. I just can't do it.'"

 

[FemMecha]

Exactly. I expect them to grow strong and emotionally self sufficient, just as I did. You know, I don't see masculine expectations as a burden, but rather as an honour worth living up to. People have forgotten these days of the greatness and glory to be sought in the masculine ideal.

But can't the concept be broadened? It's fine for some people to develop into the traditional ideal, but what about men who have other strengths? This includes artistic strengths, emotional insight and sensitivity strengths, intellectual strengths? What about the man who is gifted at working with pre-schoolers or writes poetry? What I dislike about gender stereotypes is that they are exclusionary by nature. Honor and goodness can take many forms.

I think about the life of my brother who is similar to me in many ways, and he has suffered a great deal. First as a child he was bullied by other boys, even teachers. He is intellectually brilliant, but he can seem vulnerable. He is more honorable than most men I've ever known, and yet his emotionally vulnerability has been treated as a crime. I can personally think of far worse crimes of harm, meanness, even arrogance, that can manage to fall under the umbrella of the masculine ideal, sometimes even considered 'honorable'.

I have never once dated or married a man who falls into the traditional stereotype of the masculine ideal. I don't share it as an ideal personally. It's fine for other individuals to have that ideal, but the problem is imposing it on everyone.

 

[Litsnob]

I keep looking at history for precedents, and I can honestly say that one of the things that remain the same is that people will always be people, and there's no such thing as societal or humanity's progression.

But yes, this basically is it. I have a feeling the impression we get of America is largely dominated by the news and the internet, so it may perhaps differ in real life, but ...

Not only that, the same thing is up with the men. Working class men don't realise that the roles they ascribe to harm them. Rich men have no incentive to change their minds because it benefits them. We're left with the rest, some of who see, some of whom just flat out reject the very notion that things don't have to be the way they are... etc.

That's where [MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] 's comment about being disposable comes in, at least with regards to heteronormatively defined gender roles where men are defined in relation to the women in their lives.

It's tied to class. You have a stable income, you're a perfect image of masculinity. But right now we live in advanced capitalist economies. The rise of the women's liberation movement came with greater empowerment to choose. Something which, prior to that, only men had. It's a weird link between capitalism and masculinity, but it's there, right there with roots in history. It doesn't even matter what we think. Our value is tied to performativity - what we can do. It is as Slavoj Zizek says about capitalism. The grotesque part is that we have to look like we want it - the only thing we can do is pretend to want something, when the choice is between hot tar and magma. (Paraphrased badly.)

And by god, do people really look like they want it.

MRAs fail men on one front in that they do not truly recognise the reason why men are victims, too. We actually have no good movement. Feminism had roots in womens' liberation and belongs to women. Women's only spaces tend to exclude men, and often for good reason. The result is that we don't have a safe space for men. Those that did exist often have a history of being shut down, as far as I know. And the idea of "safe space" is denigrated by the precise people it could serve, because of the outdated values that they hold onto. And all this finger-pointing. How does that help anybody?

Some of it is self-inflicted. But when you're pressured to act and think a certain way all your life... And honestly, I think tracing historical development is frankly different from finding the source of blame. I hate that this has often become such a charged topic, where the tendency is to look for someone to blame. "History is to blame" - James Joyce

There's a word for this in German that I'm not aware of in English. "Verletzungsoffenheit" - it is a combination of "injury" and "openness". I'm not sure how to define it because the moment I attempt a direct translation, it probably won't fit. Basically, it addresses the idea of men as victims and casualties in gender studies. "Ich dusch nur mit dem Arsch zur Wand": Verletzungsmacht und Verletzungsoffenheit als simultane Konstruktion von Heteronormativitat - Springer

I was surprised when a recent gender studies course has so many lectures centered on men, because ... y'know. Though a lot of it was theory, there were some useful sociological stuff. (And historical stuff.)

But if we look back at the history of womens liberation, we will see that the development of society is always divided. Even if theories and academics are formed, its influence can't be easily predicted. My hope is that the forefront of this research will spearhead ... some kinda change. But honestly, theories are just theories. Studies are where it's at, but it only provides an informative basis upon which to suggest a course of action. What we need are policy changes.

Well said. I can't add anything to that, but a possible book recommendation for men : Nora Vincent Self Made Man is the chronicle of a lesbian woman journalist who managed to live and pass as a man for a year, entering different trades and professions to find out what the experience is like. I believe the book is very sympathetic while not condescending.

 

[Litsnob]

Exactly. I expect them to grow strong and emotionally self sufficient, just as I did. You know, I don't see masculine expectations as a burden, but rather as an honour worth living up to. People have forgotten these days of the greatness and glory to be sought in the masculine ideal.

Could you conceive of the possibility that there is no one right way to be a man and that not all males will benefit or even grow up to be strong and self sufficient with the same treatment? And please explain honour. I start thinking of Klingons and Islamist honour killings. Honour seems tied in with treat me the way I want to be treated or I will employ violence so I'd like a better understanding of what you mean.

 

[Agent Washington]

Well said. I can't add anything to that, but a possible book recommendation for men : Nora Vincent Self Made Man is the chronicle of a lesbian woman journalist who managed to live and pass as a man for a year, entering different trades and professions to find out what the experience is like. I believe the book is very sympathetic while not condescending.

The review does seem very sympathetic, yes. Many FTMs have said the same thing about their experiences after passing. I wasn't brought up as a dude, either, and found it easier before.

... Tangent: I do love The Guardian.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

But can't the concept be broadened? It's fine for some people to develop into the traditional ideal, but what about men who have other strengths? This includes artistic strengths, emotional insight and sensitivity strengths, intellectual strengths? What about the man who is gifted at working with pre-schoolers or writes poetry? What I dislike about gender stereotypes is that they are exclusionary by nature. Honor and goodness can take many forms.

I think about the life of my brother who is similar to me in many ways, and he has suffered a great deal. First as a child he was bullied by other boys, even teachers. He is intellectually brilliant, but he can seem vulnerable. He is more honorable than most men I've ever known, and yet his emotionally vulnerability has been treated as a crime. I can personally think of far worse crimes of harm, meanness, even arrogance, that can manage to fall under the umbrella of the masculine ideal, sometimes even considered 'honorable'.

I have never once dated or married a man who falls into the traditional stereotype of the masculine ideal. I don't share it as an ideal personally. It's fine for other individuals to have that ideal, but the problem is imposing it on everyone.

As far as I see, it doesn't seem like he's calling for a narrow ideal of men, just that they strive for self-sufficiency and strength. But maybe I'm misinterpreting what he wrote.

I don't see why the strengths you mention must be mutually exclusive from what he is talking about. Perhaps you're evincing some of your own bias in assuming the man writing poetry or working with pre schoolers is somehow less masculine than the man chopping wood and fixing harleys.

Society ought to allow for a broader definition or scope of masculinity rather than defining it as a narrow and often toxic thing. Within that broad scope, I don't see why encouraging self-sufficiency and strenght is a bad thing. I also think those are states that could be strived for by women coming to comfortable terms with their femininity.

I'm not saying people should be told "you're on your own, suck it up and never ask for help," but encouraging the exact opposite is going to create a lot of really helpless people who will eventually have no one to turn to and not have any way to pull themselves up. They could end up without friends or family, or the gov't could collapse, or who knows what else.

 

[Qlip]

I have been thinking about this, but none of the hard things in life for me are from being a man, they're from other people thinking that me being a man means things it doesn't for me. So, really, the problem is just other people and me being willing to take their shit.

Some of its effects:
- I learned how to repair and build things, and I really learned to love it, but was really confused as to why people around me thought I should be able to do this.
- Friends can be hard to find, I just want to talk about things I think are interesting and sharing things. It seems difficult to do that with other guys without finding some kind of no-homo reasons for wanting to hang out, like sports or picking up chicks or shit like that. Or, also with women, because so much of the time people are ascribing some sort of motivations on me that I don't have if I want to spend time with the opposite sex.
- I took on a whole bunch of stuff I wasn't suited for as an ENFP with the ex, because it's what men are supposed to do, be in charge, have opinions, take on a lot of responsibility. This is precisely what I shouldn't have done in my 20's. And I was too stupid to question it, and now she's my ex.