[NF] What is NF?

[Mustafa]

Some describe cholerics as angry, others as submissive. I think there are 3 phases in a cholerics life. First immature and brutal like fire. Then soothing like water.

 

[á´…eparted]

The thread title and the post content don't connect. Are you speaking of choleric, or NF's, or how both of them are connected? If the latter Choleric is uncommon for NF's.

 

[HongDou]

The thread title and the post content don't connect. Are you speaking of choleric, or NF's, or how both of them are connected? If the latter Choleric is uncommon for NF's.

Interesting that your temperament isn't in your sig...do you identify as choleric? I couldn't see anything else for you, and obviously that's another point for you being an unusual NF.

 

[á´…eparted]

Interesting that your temperament isn't in your sig...do you identify as choleric? I couldn't see anything else for you, and obviously that's another point for you being an unusual NF.

My signature is too big; I'd have to take something else out. I've thought about including it. I might in the future.

But yes, I am solidly Choleric, with Melancholic influences.

EDIT: There I put it in. The howtofascinate thing was old af anyway and no one uses it anymore.

 

[Bush]

Keirsey dubbed the NFs Choleric. I mean, it's Keirsey, but it's still a connection.

He mapped as follows:

SP: Sanguine
SJ: Melancholic
NF: Choleric
NT: Phlegmatic

If we're talking Cholerics, then I can see that progression holding up. Like, an immature fiery Choleric would learn to chill out later in life.

I don't know who told you that Cholerics are submissive by nature, but.. don't listen to them. That's pretty much the exact opposite of what they're all about.

So to the extent that NFs are Cholerics, that's what's up with NFs.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Keirsey dubbed the NFs Choleric. I mean, it's Keirsey, but it's still a connection.

He mapped as follows:

SP: Sanguine
SJ: Melancholic
NF: Choleric
NT: Phlegmatic.

Kiersey is crazy wrong on that one. INFs would have to align with melancholy.

Sanguine = EF and/or EP Extroverts who are Feeling and/or Perceiver types = ESFP, ENFP, ESFJ, ENFJ
Melancholic = IF Introverts who are Feeling types INFJ, INFP, ISFJ, ISFP
Choleric = TJs Definitely J types= ESTJ, ENTJ, ISTJ, INTJ
Phlegmatic = TPs INTP, ISTP, and possibly ISFP and INFP

The categories do not overlay very well. Look at this description of melancholy and someone argue how it isn't the closest to describing NFs, and/or introverts who are Feelers. Edit: Although I'll have to add that the whole choleric, melancholy system is based on the four bodily fluids and pretty whack-a-do approach to understanding human nature.

In a nutshell...
Melancholic people are emotionally sensitive, perfectionistic introverts.

Perfectionistic
The defining feature of a melancholic attitude is perfectionism. They are idealists who wish for things to be a certain way, and they get distressed when they are not.

They hold themselves and others to unrealistically high standards, and get distressed when these standards are not met.
This leads to them being self-deprecating - because they do not meet their own standards - and critical of others - because those others do not meet their standards.

Their generally dour demeanour comes from their inner struggle between an imperfect world and a desire for perfection.

Many melancholics wish to learn and to understand, to know the details of every little thing, because to be ignorant is to stray from perfection. They are not content to just accept things the way that they are.
They are inquisitive and ask specific questions in order to come to a clearer understanding.

This leads many of them to be overanalytical, neurotic worriers.

They are very stubborn, because they try very hard to stick to their own carefully considered views and standards of perfection, and are not easily shifted from this path. They do not go with the flow.

They are tenacious and cannot let things go, because 'good enough' is not good enough. They strive for perfection.

They are very pessimistic, and assume the worst due to these unrealistic standards.

They think and plan before they act; they are not the types who will resort to rash, impulsive behaviour, and will panic if they are unable to plan in advance.

It's easier for them to reject and hate things than it is for them to love and embrace them. Their interests and tastes are picked carefully, and they give a lot of attention to each one, and hold them close to their hearts, rather than having many fleeting interests that change quickly and often.

They complain a lot, in a 'whinging' kind of way rather than a 'put down' or 'demanding' kind of way.

They tend to argue, because they cannot simply let things be if they seem wrong. They argue using reason, evidence, logic, and explanations, delivered analytically or with pleading. They only argue to set wrongs right, rather than to assert dominance. The argument is about the issue, not about them.

They respond poorly to compliments, often 'rebutting' them by saying that they're not so great after all.
"Wow, that's a really nice painting you just made!"
"I don't know, the eyes are probably too big..." (rather than "Thanks!")

They will blame themselves for mistakes, because they are acutely aware of their own imperfection.

They tend to prefer things to be tidy, organised in some way or another. This doesn't necessarily mean 'neat' as such; often they have very idiosyncratic organisation methods.

They are idealists, who imagine perfect fantasies and feel upset when things don't live up to these fantasies.

They prefer to tackle the heart of the matter, which can lead to them avoiding 'beating around the bush'.

Introverted
Melancholics are the most introverted of the temperaments in that they crave time alone, and are most at ease in their own company.

They can enjoy spending time with others, but this drains their energy, and they need alone time in order to recharge.

Much of their introversion comes from their perfectionism. They are picky about the sorts of people that they associate with; people who meet their standards and share their outlook. People that don't will make them uncomfortable; they do not wish to talk to 'anyone and everyone'.
Their self-deprecation also makes them think that they might not be very interesting anyway, that they aren't really worth spending time with, even if they know in the depths of their minds that they are very interesting indeed.

Once they have someone to talk to in a quiet and relaxed environment, they can talk a lot and will enjoy sharing thoughts and ideas.

They are very wary of making friends. Unlike sanguines, it can take them a very long time for them to consider someone they're familiar with a 'friend', but once they've reached this point, they will likely stick with that person loyally.

They prefer having a few close friends to many acquaintances.

They can be seen as selfish, because they prefer to be alone with their thoughts, to have their own things, rather than sharing time or possessions socially with others.
They are usually very possessive about the things that they own and are reluctant to let others borrow or use them, because they treat their own things well, care about everything deeply, and will worry that others will not look after them with the same level of care.

They could be described as 'intense', rather than 'easy-going'.

Sensitive
Melancholics are very emotional. They are moved deeply by beauty, and by distress. They are very easily hurt, because of their perfectionistic tendencies.
Often their moods are like delicate glass sculptures; built up slowly, deliberately, and carefully, but easily broken, and hard to repair once shattered.

They respond to things that they dislike with misery and with tears rather than with rage.

They are very slow to 'snap', but will hold onto emotions for a very long time. They hold grudges, because people who have failed to meet their standards, who have hurt them, will not just suddenly meet those standards without changing drastically.

They can become very 'moody', and they can be difficult to interact with because they are so easily hurt.

They are not aggressive, and wish to flee from things that cause them distress.

If they want to get back at another person, they are more likely to make them feel guilty than to insult them bluntly.

They are 'thin-skinned'.

Role
In our distant ancestors, the melancholic members of a pack may have been the analysts, the information gatherers. They scouted for potential danger, or for food, and reported back to the pack leader. The more accurate their findings were, the better; this led to a trend towards perfectionism, as the 'analysts' closer to perfection survived better than those that made sloppy mistakes.

In current society, they often tend towards analytical roles such as scientists, analysts, programmers, logicians, and so on. In fantasy settings, they may be wizards or sages.

 

[Hawthorne]

Keirsey dubbed the NFs Choleric. I mean, it's Keirsey, but it's still a connection.

He mapped as follows:

SP: Sanguine
SJ: Melancholic
NF: Choleric
NT: Phlegmatic

Wow. Except for SP, this isn't at all how I would've mapped the temperaments to one another.

Sanguine
The sanguine temperament is traditionally associated with air. People with this temperament tend to be lively, sociable, carefree, talkative, and pleasure-seeking. They may be warm-hearted and optimistic. They can make new friends easily, be imaginative and artistic, and often have many ideas.[14][15] They can be flighty and changeable; thus sanguine personalities may struggle with following tasks all the way through and be chronically late or forgetful.[16]
Pedagogically, they can be best reached through awakening their love for a subject and admiration of people.[16]

Choleric
The choleric temperament is traditionally associated with fire. People with this temperament tend to be egocentric and extroverted. They may be excitable, impulsive, and restless, with reserves of aggression, energy, and/or passion, and try to instill that in others. [14][15]
They tend to be task-oriented people and are focused on getting a job done efficiently; their motto is usually "do it now." They can be ambitious, strong-willed and like to be in charge. They can show leadership, are good at planning, and are often practical and solution-oriented.[14] They appreciate receiving respect and esteem for their work.[16]:20
Pedagogically, they can be best reached through mutual respect and appropriate challenges that recognize their capacities.[16]

Melancholic
Main article: Melancholia
The melancholic temperament is traditionally associated with the element of earth. People with this temperament may appear serious, introverted, cautious or even suspicious. They can become preoccupied with the tragedy and cruelty in the world and are susceptible to depression and moodiness. They may be focused and conscientious. They often prefer to do things themselves, both to meet their own standards and because they are not inherently sociable.[15][14]
Pedagogically, they can be best met by awakening their sympathy for others and the suffering of the world.[16]

Phlegmatic
Phlegmatic by Lespagnandelle, part of the Grande Commande, Palace of Versailles.
The phlegmatic temperament is traditionally associated with water. People with this temperament may be inward and private, thoughtful, reasonable, calm, patient, caring, and tolerant. They tend to have a rich inner life, seek a quiet, peaceful atmosphere, and be content with themselves. They tend to be steadfast, consistent in their habits, and thus steady and faithful friends.[14][15]
Pedagogically, their interest is often awakened by experiencing others' interest in a subject.[16]
People of this temperament may appear somewhat ponderous or clumsy. Their speech tends to be slow or appear hesitant.[14]

The conflict between "submissiveness" and "anger" sounds like the difference between Phlegmatic and Choleric to me.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

One more take on stereotyping

Sanguine = Extroverts who are Perceivers
Choleric = Extroverts who are Judgers
Melancholic = Introverts who are Feelers
Phlegmatic = Introverts who are Thinkers

That isn't even quite right. It doesn't overlay perfectly. For example, I don't think all INTJs map well to Phlegmatic category.

Here's another description which explicitly states these are alpha "extroverts". It's kinda hilarious to describe NFs as synonymous with this.

Choleric

In a nutshell...
Choleric people are the proud, extroverted 'alphas' of our species.

Dominant
Cholerics people are leaders and directors. They seek to be in control of situations, to be on top, to be the best.

This doesn't necessarily mean that they are all driven to reach the top of the corporate ladder or anything, or that they all want to have leadership roles, but in day-to-day interactions with other people, they have a tendency towards one-upsmanship.

They use imperative, commanding language, wording things as orders rather than requests. Compare "get me a drink" to "can I have a drink?". They probably use phrases like 'deal with it', 'get over yourself', 'stop being such a wimp', etc, or may start sentences with "look", or maybe "look, buddy" or "listen, pal" or things like that.

They word things with confidence and certainty. Compare "X is this way" to "maybe X is this way, or something?".

They are firm and forceful in their approach to problems. They believe in 'tough love', and try to 'help' others by challenging them to prove themselves, as they themselves would.

They're more likely to tell someone who they are trying to 'help' that they're pathetic, expecting the person to say 'no, I'm not pathetic, I'll show you!', as indeed a choleric would in response to such a thing.

If met by opposition, they react confrontationally to defend themselves. They are constantly trying to be 'dominant' in every situation, subconsciously, either by being louder and better than those around them, or more restrained and therefore superior to those who lose their cool.

Most bullies are choleric, but few cholerics are bullies. Many will in fact stand up to those who bully others, rather than letting them get away with things.

Their confidence and demanding natures make them natural leaders, though this doesn't mean that they would necessarily enjoy leadership positions; they're just more likely to take charge if necessary rather than fumbling around worrying.

They will 'challenge' others aggressively in order to show their respect for the person's strength. They believe that it is important to 'prove oneself'.

They have a tendency to argue for reasons that are different to the melancholic. They're more driven by a desire to prove themselves greater than whoever they're arguing with, to assert that they are right, rather than to reach some kind of truth or compromise. They can lie in order to maintain the dominant position. The argument is about them moreso than the issue; a battle of egos rather than a quest for truth.

They say things like "if anyone tries to mess with me, I make them wish they'd never started on me in the first place".

They love competition... but hate to lose.

They are defiant of authority, challenging them as if to knock them off the top spot and assert their own dominance as the alpha of this pack, the leader of this tribe.

They can be very condescending to those that they look down upon.

They may take pleasure in the pain, misfortune, or humiliation of people they are not on good terms with. This is because it brings them pleasure to feel superior to others. "Haha! Look at that loser messing up! Hilarious!" (Compare this with the phlegmatic, who'd be more likely to feel distress when seeing someone being harmed, even if it was their worst enemy.)

Words like 'hot-blooded', 'brash', 'domineering', 'overbearing', might be used to describe this temperament.

They blame others for their own mistakes, often to the point of lying to save face.

They feel that they can define and understand and advise others, but laugh at the thought that others could do the same to them. This is because analysing and defining another puts you in the superior position, while being defined would put them in the inferior position, which they resist.

Extroverted
Cholerics are extroverted in the sense that they will meddle in others' affairs and 'speak their mind' if they feel it is necessary, rather than minding their own business.

They generally respond well to new situations, and seek thrills.

They seek to prove themselves externally, to show that they are great and the best and things like that. They must prove that they are strong.

They believe that it is important to 'say things how they are', to be bluntly honest about their opinions rather than 'sugar-coating' them.

They speak their mind, but often don't mind their speech.

Their pride and drive for dominance, as well as their open expression of emotion, naturally leads to outright aggression when challenged. They will raise their voices and get angry to show that they are the biggest and strongest, and to assert superiority.

They brag and boast to show how amazing they are, in an 'I am better than others' kind of way.

They are pragmatic, doing what needs to be done bluntly rather than worrying about fantasy scenarios.

They will plough through obstacles that bar their path (metaphorically speaking); they are single-minded in moving towards their goals.

Proud
They generally believe that they are right, and have immense stubbornness about admitting their flaws, UNLESS admitting these flaws would make them look better than others ("I'm strong enough to admit I'm wrong, unlike you").

They demand respect from others, and will hold grudges against those that they consider to be rivals.
They can be great, supportive friends who'd take a bullet for those close to them, unless you get on their bad side, in which case they'll try their best to 'rub your nose into the dirt'.

It is important to them that they are strong and courageous, not afraid of anything. If they are afraid, they will deny it (again, unless admitting it makes them look strong).

They often - but not necessarily - have high self-esteem.

They will 'rise to the challenge', in order to prove themselves, and look for opportunities to do so.

It's important for them to be tough and strong.

They are in many ways the opposite of the phlegmatic in that they are controlling, assertive, and see conflict and challenge and competition as a desirable form of interaction.

They have similarities to the melancholic in that both are stubborn and opinionated, but the choleric is more forceful and 'tough' while the melancholic is uncertain and sensitive.

Cholerics strive for independence, because to be dependent is to rely on others, to not be in the superior position. Dependence is weakness.

They are 'thick-skinned', in many cases bulletproof against the criticisms of others, able to shrug or laugh them off.

Role
In our distant ancestors, the choleric members of the pack would be the alphas, the leaders. They would command their subordinates, and assert their dominance using force. If challenged, they would respond by getting angry, larger, in order to intimidate and to prove that THEY were the strongest, the most fit to lead.

In current society, they often tend towards leadership roles, such as managers, politicians, captains, team leaders, and so on, though not necessarily. In fantasy, they might be the proud warriors, the esteemed Kings.

 

[Mustafa]

I am maybe a strong INFP therefore Keirseys cholerics fits me. Before when i was fire i was very strong willed (hard metal) but my Fi kept me safe (soft metall). This wasnt allright with the governmet so they made me go in compulsive treatment and I erupted alot (and my metal got broken).


You say we are melancholic and not choleric, well both according to Spranger and Keirsey belong to the "social" group. If and when melanchols are earth, then cholerics are like a fiery sea (h2o - hydrogen burns and oksygen feeds the fire). Like a glass of water, which i'd say is social.

Think in term of elements and their nature, they are universal.

 

[RobinSkye]

Just reading this: The Four Temperaments - Comparison I seem to relate most to Melancholic, and then Sanguine. What does this mean...?

 

[Mal12345]

Keirsey dubbed the NFs Choleric. I mean, it's Keirsey, but it's still a connection.

He mapped as follows:

SP: Sanguine
SJ: Melancholic
NF: Choleric
NT: Phlegmatic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Please_Understand_Me
Then Keirsey simplifies these sixteen types into four groups, whose archetypes he equates with the classical four temperaments: NT (Phlegmatic), NF (Melancholy), SP (Sanguine), and SJ (Choleric).

 

[RobinSkye]

My only submissive tendencies come in sexually, when there is a beautiful girl involved. Other than that, I always stand up for what I believe in. So I most relate to "melancholic/NF" Does this suggest I am more likely NF than I am NT?

 

[evilrubberduckie]

My only submissive tendencies come in sexually, when there is a beautiful girl involved. Other than that, I always stand up for what I believe in. So I most relate to "melancholic/NF" Does this suggest I am more likely NF than I am NT?

Niggah you overthinking it. Im a STRONG NT and Im submissive as hell in the romantic scene.

I dont believe thats a good way to base your personality type on.

 

[RobinSkye]

Niggah you overthinking it. Im a STRONG NT and Im submissive as hell in the romantic scene.

I dont believe thats a good way to base your personality type on.

Yeah, probably. I'm just having trouble differentiating when I'm using Ti vs. Fi. They're so similar. You should help me analyze.

 

[evilrubberduckie]

Yeah, probably. I'm just having trouble differentiating when I'm using Ti vs. Fi. They're so similar. You should help me analyze.

I would have helped you analyzed it a long time ago if I myself knew the difference.

I just kinda simplify it. One thinks internally, one feels internally.

yes, Im aware that this might be wrong.

 

[RobinSkye]

"I would have helped you analyzed it a long time ago if I myself knew the difference," said the ENFP.

I just kinda simplify it. One thinks internally, one feels internally.

yes, Im aware that this might be wrong.

Just kidding, haha. But I think to fully assess one's type, you need to understand what functions you're using, and why you prefer them(or don't) in conjunction with one another.

Everyone both thinks and feels. It's not that simple. Both Ti and Fi are making sense of things through analysis, just by different means. You could just as well be using Fi, if you're not sure of the finite differences.

 

[evilrubberduckie]

Just kidding, haha. But I think to fully assess one's type, you need to understand what functions you're using, and why you prefer them(or don't) in conjunction with one another.

Everyone both thinks and feels. It's not that simple. Both Ti and Fi are making sense of things through analysis, just by different means. You could just as well be using Fi, if you're not sure of the finite differences.

There is such thing as over thinking and over anylzing. I recommend stopping, and coming back to it later.

I'll take the ENFP as a compliment. I prefer my thinking function, but I do switch from time to time XD

 

[RobinSkye]

There is such thing as over thinking and over anylzing. I recommend stopping, and coming back to it later.

I'll take the ENFP as a compliment. I prefer my thinking function, but I do switch from time to time XD

Well, yeah, everyone has to. Honestly I think the most important part of my typing is the fact that I highly prefer Ne. But I like to be accurate. And if there is a "set answer" to be discovered, I think it will help me a lot for whatever reason. I guess I don't see the over-analysis as a waste of time just because self-actualization ranks so highly for me. I'd like to be able to tell people concretely, "this is my type." (though that isn't the main perk, obviously)

 

[á´…eparted]

Well, yeah, everyone has to. Honestly I think the most important part of my typing is the fact that I highly prefer Ne. But I like to be accurate. And if there is a "set answer" to be discovered, I think it will help me a lot for whatever reason. I guess I don't see the over-analysis as a waste of time just because self-actualization ranks so highly for me. I'd like to be able to tell people concretely, "this is my type." (though that isn't the main perk, obviously)

Over analysis? Been there, done that. It genuinely is a waste of energy, and rather stressful in pretty much any area it's applied. You're less likely to figure things out if you try too hard. You're also young and still developing as a person. These things take time.

Also, FWIW I'm a pretty atypical ENFJ, but it fits. It's possible you could simply be atypical for an Ne user.

 

[Cygnus]

An excuse to be a weak-willed recluse who taps glass and talks to pieces of wood.