[MBTI General] What do you Love and What do you Hate About NTs?

[Amargith]

What specific domain is this in reference to? Romance?

In general, tbh. I'm specifically talking about the obnoxious need to camouflage insecurities by bragging excessively about them being a superior being - and yes, Im using a hyperbole here to make my point, so no it's not always to this extreme or obnoxiousness. I get where it stems from, I empathise with it coz god knows that being paralysed by insecurity aint no joking matter but man, do you (general you) have to make it a chain reaction where you pass it along to the people around you so *you* can feel better about yourself?

In my experience this isn't necessarily NT, but I suppose there's a personal compatibility factor to it as well.

Granted, other personalities do that on their own territory as well. SJs often bitch and whine about how others lack a sense of duty and are unreliable, for instance. But this is an NT thread and I was specifically asked what bugged me (and what I loved btw) about NTs. What bugs me is the combination of the undeveloped ability for empathy - or thats how it comes off (NF bitching about their territory I suppose ), though it could be just the unwillingness to use it, I suppose and the incessant need to be derogatory to others to feel better about themselves, thinly disguised by the reasoning that 'lesser beings aren't worth the effort to treat with respect.'

 

[Noll]

Granted, other personalities do that on their own territory as well. SJs often bitch and whine about how others lack a sense of duty and are unreliable, for instance. But this is an NT thread and I was specifically asked what bugged me (and what I loved btw) about NTs. What bugs me is the combination of the undeveloped ability for empathy - or thats how it comes off (NF bitching about their territory I suppose ) - though it could just be the unwillingness to use it, I suppose and the incessant need to be derogatory to others to feel better about themselves, thinly disguised by the reasoning that 'lesser beings aren't worth the effort to treat with respect.'

NT's are always low in Fi and Fe, it's only natural for people like us to sometimes misinterpret what they're actually trying to say or do. What I believe in is accepting the fact that people are different, and if you can't accept that, you should really come to terms with the fact that you can't be completely compatible with everyone. I'm sure you already know this though, as of now I'm just derailing the thread like a useless person!

 

[Amargith]

NT's are always low in Fi and Fe, it's only natural for people like us to sometimes misinterpret what they're actually trying to say or do. What I believe in is accepting the fact that people are different, and if you can't accept that, you should really come to terms with the fact that you can't be completely compatible with everyone. I'm sure you already know this though, as of now I'm just derailing the thread like a useless person!

You're right. And I'm aware of this.

This is a rant thread though, so I just...followed the instructions. Just because I'm perfectly capable of accepting this, understanding where they're coming from and not holding this against them, doesn't mean it cannot occasionally make you sigh in frustration, you see.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I hate the "spreading" (to use a term coined by [MENTION=5789]Beorn[/MENTION]) that many of the more academically oriented NT's use in their argumentation.

 

[xenaprincess]

I really like how I can rant a bit or be included in a conversation and then walk away...and the NTs don't hold whatever it is against me. They don't take is personally. Granted, I take care to keep the ranting to a minimum. I think they a) partially think the ranting/my emotional turmoil is strange and b) don't really listen to me. We also tend to share a sense of humor.

On the other hand, NT's tend to seem so detached sometimes, I feel I could fall off the planet and they wouldn't notice.
Logically I know I mean *something* to them, but...that...is...logically.

 

[Coriolis]

Granted, other personalities do that on their own territory as well. SJs often bitch and whine about how others lack a sense of duty and are unreliable, for instance. But this is an NT thread and I was specifically asked what bugged me (and what I loved btw) about NTs. What bugs me is the combination of the undeveloped ability for empathy - or thats how it comes off (NF bitching about their territory I suppose ), though it could be just the unwillingness to use it, I suppose and the incessant need to be derogatory to others to feel better about themselves, thinly disguised by the reasoning that 'lesser beings aren't worth the effort to treat with respect.'

I agree that we often can be derogatory toward others, but don't agree that it is usually done to try to feel better about ourselves or because we feel others don't deserve respect. Often it is from pure frustration at what we see other people doing, especially when it impacts us or someone close to us (or a project at work etc.) Other times it is simply an extension of criticism, which perhaps paradoxically can stem from the fact that we do indeed respect or even care for the other person. We respect them enough to level with them and tell them what we really think; and/or we care enough to give them our unvarnished opinion, and trust them enough to be candid.

On the other hand, NT's tend to seem so detached sometimes, I feel I could fall off the planet and they wouldn't notice.
Logically I know I mean *something* to them, but...that...is...logically.

But that's the most important part, isn't it?

 

[johnnyyukon]

I honestly don't know how an NT's emotions work.

Sometimes, I truly think I have very little, generally speaking. I still get struck if I see something really sad, or really joyful, but in general, I kinda feel like a robot, which I honestly don't mind, but when something emotionally major happens, I'm like "What the hell are all these things??" And I'm not very good at channeling them, dealing with them.

 

[Amargith]

I agree that we often can be derogatory toward others, but don't agree that it is usually done to try to feel better about ourselves or because we feel others don't deserve respect. Often it is from pure frustration at what we see other people doing, especially when it impacts us or someone close to us (or a project at work etc.) Other times it is simply an extension of criticism, which perhaps paradoxically can stem from the fact that we do indeed respect or even care for the other person. We respect them enough to level with them and tell them what we really think; and/or we care enough to give them our unvarnished opinion, and trust them enough to be candid.


But that's the most important part, isn't it?

This can be biting but if done with the right prrson ( someone you actually have this kind of upfront bond with and mutual respect is clear), it is not an issue to me. In fact, this one goes in the what i appreviate about you guys-column. It can be incredibly helpful, insightful and refreshing.

Its when they dont even bother to know you, show that mutual respect or build that bond and somehow feel theyre just beter by default coz thats what their insecure ego demAnds that you want to send them to a shrink, pronto before you do something you ll regret, ime. And thats the ones you feel for coz they arent even aware theyre doing it. The ones that are aware and do it for kicks, you want to shoot on sight due to the harm to other people they cause ( which ironically they refuse to acknowledge and dont seem aware of)

Think Sheldon-style for the first type and troll style for the second.

 

[Opal]

Its when they dont even bother to know you, show that mutual respect or build that bond and somehow feel theyre just beter by default coz thats what their insecure ego demAnds that you want to send them to a shrink, pronto before you do something you ll regret, ime. And thats the ones you feel for coz they arent even aware theyre doing it.

I'm sure there are plenty of narcissistic NTs who fit this description, but my understanding of NTs is that we operate mostly in the realm of abstract ideals, so our criticism is less personal than most are inclined to believe. If someone takes offense at my challenging the soundness of an idea I assume it stems from their own deep-seated self-doubt.

I would draw a line between smug and confident.

 

[Amargith]

I'm sure there are plenty of narcissistic NTs who fit this description, but my understanding of NTs is that we operate mostly in the realm of abstract ideals, so our criticism is less personal than most are inclined to believe. If someone takes offense at my challenging the soundness of an idea I assume it stems from their own deep-seated self-doubt.

I would draw a line between smug and confident.

Yeah, I'm not talking about detached feedback. I'm talking about unsolicited, obnoxious 'I'm better than you' quips that never end. Or worse, the actual conviction that this is the case and the 'sound' arguments they present on this front, entirely believing their own bullshit.

It's one thing to offer detached, unpersonal, unvarnished feedback - and preferably only when requested to do so, tbh, but depending on the context, it can be useful when unsolicited as well though risky - it is another to take someone down coz you need a release valve for your frustrations that you deny having coz you're so logical and you don't like them, so therefore they should learn their proper place, or whatever the justification is.

Everyone has some doubts, fears and stressors that can cause us to act out - it just often seems to come out in NTs in this way.

For the record, Im a big fan of your breed - I don't want that to get lost in the process of this discussion.

 

[Opal]

Yeah, I'm not talking about detached feedback. I'm talking about unsolicited, obnoxious 'I'm better than you' quips that never end. Or worse, the actual conviction that this is the case and the 'sound' arguments they present on this front, entirely believing their own bullshit.

It's one thing to offer detached, unpersonal, unvarnished feedback - and preferably only when requested to do so, tbh, but depending on the context, it can be useful when unsolicited as well though risky - it is another to take someone down coz you need a release valve for your frustrations that you deny having coz you're so logical and you don't like them, so therefore they should learn their proper place, or whatever the justification is.

Everyone has some doubts, fears and stressors that can cause us to act out - it just often seems to come out in NTs in this way.

For the record, Im a big fan of your breed - I don't want that to get lost in the process of this discussion.

I get the sense your perspective comes from a specific incident (or three). I can imagine NTs opening fire on someone doing something illogical, but I haven't often observed it. The person or people in question sound(s) very unhealthy. Personal attacks aren't something I associate with NTs.

 

[Amargith]

I get the sense your perspective comes from a specific incident (or three). I can imagine NTs opening fire on someone doing something illogical, but I haven't often observed it. The person or people in question sound(s) very unhealthy. Personal attacks aren't something I associate with NTs.

On this board alone, it happened non-stop - moreso when this was still an INTP-shoot off, back in the day. Hell, just look at INTP-Central or whatever place they moved to. It's not just one incident, but sure, for me it holds personal baggage due to the fact that Ive been on the receiving end of that kind of 'damage'. I lived with it, and its justifications and dismissals my entire life as my immediate family is made up of three NTs (and Im sure they could enter a plethora of feedback in the NF-version of this due to me).

Incidentally, I also currently bed an NT who isn't like that - I know it aint *all* of you. But *some* of you are like that. Consider it a piece of feedback. What you do with it, and whether it applies to you or not, I'll leave to you.

Oh and personal attacks which are veiled as detached observations is something i *very much* associate with NTs. Especially of the 'I'm smarter than you and I need to rub your face in it' variety as that is the thing they often use to gauge someone's 'worth'. I get it, intelligence is their yardstick and what they're often proud of, so they use it as a yardstick on everyone else - even when that person doesn't invest their identity in that part of them. And somehow, them not focusing on those same things (like Sheldon in the Big Bang Theory: 'its not that you're bad at what you do, it's the fact that what you do isn't worth doing.') makes it justifiable to bust their balls for it and treat them as second class citizens. And some of them have made this kind of insulting into an art.

 

[Coriolis]

I can imagine NTs opening fire on someone doing something illogical, but I haven't often observed it.

I do this myself from time to time. Hardly ever on strangers; usually I at least know the person, and have some stake in what is going on. It is related to the frustration I mentioned earlier. I try to be constructive in these situations, and never claim to be better than the other person, but might say things like "You did WHAT? That's just dumb. A schoolkid would know better," etc.

Oh and personal attacks which are veiled as detached observations is something i *very much* associate with NTs. Especially of the 'I'm smarter than you and I need to rub your face in it' variety as that is the thing they often use to gauge someone's 'worth'. I get it, intelligence is their yardstick and what they're often proud of, so they use it as a yardstick on everyone else - even when that person doesn't invest their identity in that part of them. And somehow, them not focusing on those same things (like Sheldon in the Big Bang Theory: 'its not that you're bad at what you do, it's the fact that what you do isn't worth doing.') makes it justifiable to bust their balls for it and treat them as second class citizens. And some of them have made this kind of insulting into an art.

Oh, good grief. I have to own up to this one, too, in a way. It usually matters much less to me what someone's actual skill or knowledge level is as long as he/she is working at it and trying to improve. That presupposes a desire to do so, however, and it is the lack of such desire that I find the greatest failing.

 

[INTP]

Oh and personal attacks which are veiled as detached observations is something i *very much* associate with NTs. Especially of the 'I'm smarter than you and I need to rub your face in it' variety as that is the thing they often use to gauge someone's 'worth'. I get it, intelligence is their yardstick and what they're often proud of, so they use it as a yardstick on everyone else - even when that person doesn't invest their identity in that part of them. And somehow, them not focusing on those same things (like Sheldon in the Big Bang Theory: 'its not that you're bad at what you do, it's the fact that what you do isn't worth doing.') makes it justifiable to bust their balls for it and treat them as second class citizens. And some of them have made this kind of insulting into an art.

I get this sort of attitude when people try to compete with me(usually intellectually), but are not equipped to do that. Its nice that NFs dont often try to compete or prove that they are better than me and therefore i dont have to give them this sort of treatment. I mean i get kicks out of putting people down who think that they are more than they actually are and try to act big because of that, think they know when they dont(and argue about it) etc.

ps. sheldon is an INTJ, if you compare him to leonard or amy who are INTPs, you can see a pretty different attitude. and yes, sheldon doesent represent all NTJs and leonard and amy doesent represent all INTPs

 

[Ene]

I only know one INTJ in my everyday offline world. He is my Bagau Zhang master. We work together very closely. We talk on the phone everyday and train together anywhere from three to six hours a week. I help him with his books and articles, as well. He sometimes confides in me, like when he decided to leave his wife. Sometimes he calls me just to ask me how to cook something or to tell me that he bested someone in a debate. The thing I like most about him is that he is rarely "ruffled". I like that he has a sense of humor that I relate to. I guess the thing I like least about him (I "hate" nothing about him. He is a fantastic INTJ cognitive specimen as far as I can tell) is that he has what I can only call a "need" to debunk other's teachings and theories, to find wholes in their systems and ideologies and tear them apart with a gleam in his eyes. He often seems oblivious to the effect that it has on them either positively or negatively.

I really want him to think highly of me. I strongly value his opinion on things and am always flabbergasted when he asks for mine. He never says anyone is unworthy, yet I am compelled to have him trust me and consider me as worthy. Of what? His friendship, I suppose. I like being his confidant, the one he shares the inside joke with. He tells me that I have an analytical, organized mind. I don't know if he thinks that's bad or good or neutral.

Also, just for the record, he has a horrible sense of fashion, loves exotic art (doesn't paint, just appreciates it.) he is a minimalist and values efficiency and logic, but also values his own intuition. He enjoys stimulating and intellectual conversations and mental challenges. He likes a little bit of mystery, too.

 

[Coriolis]

I guess the thing I like least about him (I "hate" nothing about him. He is a fantastic INTJ cognitive specimen as far as I can tell) is that he has what I can only call a "need" to debunk other's teachings and theories, to find wholes in their systems and ideologies and tear them apart with a gleam in his eyes. He often seems oblivious to the effect that it has on them either positively or negatively.

Freudian slip?

I share this "need". Sometimes I can discern the effect on others after the fact, but rarely soon enough to stop me in my tracks, which would be rather hard in any case.

 

[Ene]

Freudian slip?

I share this "need". Sometimes I can discern the effect on others after the fact, but rarely soon enough to stop me in my tracks, which would be rather hard in any case.

Eek, it would appear so concerning the slip. I meant to type 'holes.'

I say it's the thing I like least, but even that isn't necessarily a negative thing. Sometimes, I like it, because I can tell him something I am planning to do or implement and he will point out weaknesses. Acknowledging his notations and making adjustments often makes things more effective so I thank him for his help and incorporate his advice. He knows his expertise is valued and my project is the better for it and the next thing I know, he's surprising me with a new pressure point chart or a training whip or drink or lunch or a surprise visit and somehow I feel amazed that this incredible person simply wants to hang around me even when we're not training.

 

[INTP]

he's surprising me with a new pressure point chart or a training whip

He trains you with a whip?

 

[johnnyyukon]

I hate the "spreading" (to use a term coined by [MENTION=5789]Beorn[/MENTION]) that many of the more academically oriented NT's use in their argumentation.

Spreading? Do tell.

 

[Ene]

He trains you with a whip?

Haha, yes, a chain whip, but we've got a leather one, too, and I'm not afraid to use it