Waco

[anticlimatic]

Anyone see this on Netflix? I remember watching it all go down live when I was a kid back in the 90s. I thought they did a pretty good job with the show.

 

[Lexicon]

I just watched this the other day. It’s well-made, but they kind of left out a lot of details about Koresh & the Branch Davidians. They put Koresh in a more flattering light. They selectively left out how some of the children found in the bunker after the fire hadn’t died from smoke/fire, but were shot in the head. One was stabbed in the chest. A few other Branch Davidians were also shot in the head, chest, & back, according to ME reports. No shots were fired by authorities that day, but officers reported hearing some ammo inside “cooking off” during the fire, as well as actual shots being fired inside (apparently the two sound different).


The show made the cause of the fire out to be a bit more ambiguous than arson reports from the investigation illustrates with a lot of concrete evidence & witness testimony.

- Infrared cameras indicated 3 separate fires occurring simultaneously in different areas of the compound. Arson dogs indicated the use of accelerants where the fires started, and in other areas. They also indicated that clothing collected from some BD survivors that those same flammable chemicals were present (tested positive later on for propane & kerosene).

- FBI bugs picked up audio in the days before, about Branch Davidians spreading fuel (Coleman propane cans for camp stoves- subsequently found stabbed open after the fire, etc), & hay spread around the compound interior (there was a delay in getting that info, as the audio was so full of background noise, that it had to be cleaned up by some specialist before they could hear it clearly). Steve Schneider was heard discussing it several times. It’s theorized Koresh’s select group of Mighty Men & a few others were privy to & involved in a plan to burn the compound, as soon as the tanks entered.






Several behavior analysts from the FBI, as well as psych professionals warned the FBI & ATF that mass suicide was a possibility due to Koresh’s narcissism & need for control. They warned against breaking down walls w/tanks, saying the FBI &ATF would simply be playing into Koresh’s hands to fulfill is prophesy.

A handful of followers who were released during the siege warned of a suicide pact (Kathy Schroeder was one, iirc, but later denied it), & others were not aware of one. Those 9 who survived the fire were also divided on this. Branch Davidian fire survivor Graeme Craddock testified hearing fellow members around him say, “light the fire,” shortly before flames broke out near him. He was unaware of any plan to set a fire.

- A sniper said he saw a Branch Davidian set one of the fires, as the tank took down a wall.

- Survivor Ruth Riddle jumped from a window during the fire, only to run back into the building, laying on the floor refusing to move when someone went in to rescue her. She was dragged out kicking/screaming.

- Survivor Marjorie Thomas, burnt over 50% of her body, testified that a suicide plan had been discussed nearly from the start.

- Survivor Misty F____, who lost all of her fingers in the fire due to severe burns, was trapped on the 2nd floor after the tanks damaged her way out. She was unaware of any suicide plan, & crawled across the floor until she found an open window. Her hands were on fire when she hit the ground.


- Dr. Perry, child psychologist, talked with the children released during the siege. One child drew the compound in red flames. He pointed at the red, asking, “what’s that?” The child replied, “None of your business. You’ll find out.” The doc also found out that Koresh had been molesting & grooming girls as young as ten to be his wives.

Show left all that out. It’s a good watch, but terribly selective.

The little blurb at the end, talking about the particular CS gas being incendiary was kind of misleading, as well. According to reports, the wind was so high that day that CS gas was dissipating quickly. It was also forced into the building by a carbon dioxide-based propellant, which is not flammable. The holes made by the tanks likely helped fan & vent the fires set/provide oxygen, though, so, that’s on them. And damaging the building so some were trapped certainly didn’t help matters, either.


Interesting read: Report to the Deputy Attorney General on the Events at Waco, Texas

I’ve probably successfully outed myself now as a morbid weirdo. I’ve always found abnormal psych, cults, crime scene investigations, autopsy reports, etc, really interesting.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Loooks like Michael Shannon playing against type, lol.

 

[anticlimatic]

I just watched this the other day. It's well-made, but they kind of left out a lot of details about Koresh & the Branch Davidians. They put Koresh in a more flattering light. They selectively left out how some of the children found in the bunker after the fire hadn't died from smoke/fire, but were shot in the head. One was stabbed in the chest. A few other Branch Davidians were also shot in the head, chest, & back, according to ME reports. No shots were fired by authorities that day, but officers reported hearing some ammo inside "cooking off" during the fire, as well as actual shots being fired inside (apparently the two sound different). The show made the cause of the fire out to be a bit more ambiguous than arson reports from the investigation illustrates with a lot of concrete evidence & witness testimony.

- Infrared cameras indicated 3 separate fires occurring simultaneously in different areas of the compound. Arson dogs indicated the use of accelerants where the fires started, and in other areas. They also indicated that clothing collected from some BD survivors that those same flammable chemicals were present (tested positive later on for propane & kerosene). - FBI bugs picked up audio in the days before, about Branch Davidians spreading fuel (Coleman propane cans for camp stoves- subsequently found stabbed open after the fire, etc), & hay spread around the compound interior (there was a delay in getting that info, as the audio was so full of background noise, that it had to be cleaned up by some specialist before they could hear it clearly). Steve Schneider was heard discussing it several times. It's theorized Koresh's select group of Mighty Men & a few others were privy to & involved in a plan to burn the compound, as soon as the tanks entered. Several behavior analysts from the FBI, as well as psych professionals warned the FBI & ATF that mass suicide was a possibility due to Koresh's narcissism & need for control. They warned against breaking down walls w/tanks, saying the FBI &ATF would simply be playing into Koresh's hands to fulfill is prophesy. A handful of followers who were released during the siege warned of a suicide pact (Kathy Schroeder was one, iirc, but later denied it), & others were not aware of one. Those 9 who survived the fire were also divided on this. Branch Davidian fire survivor Graeme Craddock testified hearing fellow members around him say, "light the fire," shortly before flames broke out near him. He was unaware of any plan to set a fire. - A sniper said he saw a Branch Davidian set one of the fires, as the tank took down a wall. - Survivor Ruth Riddle jumped from a window during the fire, only to run back into the building, laying on the floor refusing to move when someone went in to rescue her. She was dragged out kicking/screaming. - Survivor Marjorie Thomas, burnt over 50% of her body, testified that a suicide plan had been discussed nearly from the start. - Survivor Misty F____, who lost all of her fingers in the fire due to severe burns, was trapped on the 2nd floor after the tanks damaged her way out. She was unaware of any suicide plan, & crawled across the floor until she found an open window. Her hands were on fire when she hit the ground. - Dr. Perry, child psychologist, talked with the children released during the siege. One child drew the compound in red flames. He pointed at the red, asking, "what's that?" The child replied, "None of your business. You'll find out." The doc also found out that Koresh had been molesting & grooming girls as young as ten to be his wives.

Show left all that out. It's a good watch, but terribly selective. The little blurb at the end, talking about the particular CS gas being incendiary was kind of misleading, as well. According to reports, the wind was so high that day that CS gas was dissipating quickly. It was also forced into the building by a carbon dioxide-based propellant, which is not flammable. The holes made by the tanks likely helped fan & vent the fires set/provide oxygen, though, so, that's on them. And damaging the building so some were trapped certainly didn't help matters, either. Interesting read: Report to the Deputy Attorney General on the Events at Waco, Texas I've probably successfully outed myself now as a morbid weirdo. I've always found abnormal psych, cults, crime scene investigations, autopsy reports, etc, really interesting.

That's interesting. I liked the anti government sentiment, but also felt like they wanted to give Koresh a "good" side, which considering the fact that he is a monstrous narcissist, I definitely didn't buy. Even if the FBI was responsible for burning down the compound, he was responsible for 1) still being in there after 51 days 2) keeping his shield of children in there with him, and 3) being the reason the authorities were there in the first place. I think the show said they came to serve a search warrant, but unless I'm mistaken it was an arrest warrant. Or both.

 

[Lexicon]

That's interesting. I liked the anti government sentiment, but also felt like they wanted to give Koresh a "good" side, which considering the fact that he is a monstrous narcissist, I definitely didn't buy. Even if the FBI was responsible for burning down the compound, he was responsible for 1) still being in there after 51 days 2) keeping his shield of children in there with him, and 3) being the reason the authorities were there in the first place. I think the show said they came to serve a search warrant, but unless I'm mistaken it was an arrest warrant. Or both.

Yeah, the govt definitely messed this up/exacerbated the situation, I think. It was probably useful that they illustrated Koresh’s good side for people to consider. I mean, how else do you get your followers to subscribe to that kind of belief system & let him annul your marriages, have sex w/your wives/rape your minor daughters? There have to be some redeeming or attractive qualities about the guy & what he’s selling for anyone to find that whole setup convincing. I guess it just irked me that it didn’t illustrate the other side of him, much. Seemed unbalanced.