The Murder of George Floyd & Subsequent Protests/Riots

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

To the whites who argue that cops also unlawfully kill white people: yes, while that's true, it's a whataboutism and doesn't address the problem. The policies and changes that would benefit the black community would likewise benefit the white community, so I really don't understand how bringing up that whites are victims of police misconduct too is an argument against reforming the police. That argument suggests a mindset holding that white and black are naturally at odds and says a lot about the person making that sort of argument.

A lawnmower hits all manner of plants under its blades. The clover and the dandelion and the blade of grass all face the same threat of decapitation.

 

[anticlimatic]

Deadly night in New York City as gun violence surge continues | FOX 5 New York

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

To the whites who argue that cops also unlawfully kill white people: yes, while that's true, it's a whataboutism and doesn't address the problem. The policies and changes that would benefit the black community would likewise benefit the white community, so I really don't understand how bringing up that whites are victims of police misconduct too is an argument against reforming the police. That argument suggests a mindset holding that white and black are naturally at odds and says a lot about the person making that sort of argument.

A lawnmower hits all manner of plants under its blades. The clover and the dandelion and the blade of grass all face the same threat of decapitation.

Indeed, I believe BLM has actually pointed out when white folks were killed by the police. I'm blanking on the name of the guy right now that was the example I read about.

 

[FemMecha]

To the whites who argue that cops also unlawfully kill white people: yes, while that's true, it's a whataboutism and doesn't address the problem. The policies and changes that would benefit the black community would likewise benefit the white community, so I really don't understand how bringing up that whites are victims of police misconduct too is an argument against reforming the police. That argument suggests a mindset holding that white and black are naturally at odds and says a lot about the person making that sort of argument.

A lawnmower hits all manner of plants under its blades. The clover and the dandelion and the blade of grass all face the same threat of decapitation.

I agree. Once a person justifies treating one person or group inhumanely, it is easy enough to transfer it to the next. It's strange to think of racist thinking as absolute and organized enough to not cross other lines. The people who have been the most violently racist certainly treat most people like crap, but are able to cross more lines if society gives less credibility and power to a given demographic. Bullies look for the easiest target - the one they can get away with mistreating. I suspect there is a huge overlap between cops who commit racial murders, commit non-racially motivated murders, and who abuse their wives and children. People don't cross one line and no others. Violent people cross every line they can get away with crossing. That's one reason why a society needs to give people equality, and a reason to provide the same punishments and restrictions for all violence, whomever is the target of the violence.

One fallacy I see with these arguments comparing Black and white murders by cops is that it often comes down to the single story fallacy. You can take two individual events to prove just about anything. I saw a meme placing George Floyd in contrast to Brock Turner, and then another meme comparing George Floyd with Timothy Coffman (a white, mentally ill man killed in a similar manner by police, but without media or legal consequences). You can "prove" two opposite ideas with these two memes. When dealing with systemic racism, one has to look at the statistics and big picture.

 

[Red Herring]

I agree. Once a person justifies treating one person or group inhumanely, it is easy enough to transfer it to the next. It's strange to think of racist thinking as absolute and organized enough to not cross other lines. The people who have been the most violently racist certainly treat most people like crap, but are able to cross more lines if society gives less credibility and power to a given demographic. Bullies look for the easiest target - the one they can get away with mistreating. I suspect there is a huge overlap between cops who commit racial murders, commit non-racially motivated murders, and who abuse their wives and children. People don't cross one line and no others. Violent people cross every line they can get away with crossing. That's one reason why a society needs to give people equality, and a reason to provide the same punishments and restrictions for all violence, whomever is the target of the violence.

One fallacy I see with these arguments comparing Black and white murders by cops is that it often comes down to the single story fallacy. You can take two individual events to prove just about anything. I saw a meme placing George Floyd in contrast to Brock Turner, and then another meme comparing George Floyd with Timothy Coffman (a white, mentally ill man killed in a similar manner by police, but without media or legal consequences). You can "prove" two opposite ideas with these two memes. When dealing with systemic racism, one has to look at the statistics and big picture.

From what I've been reading it's called group-focused enmity (GFE) - there is significant overlap between the dislike of/mistrust in/rejection of/feeling of superiority to ethnic, religious and/or sexual minorities as well as gender inequality. If you assume or accept inequality in one arena you are statistically likely to also do it in others. There is some interesting research on this.

 

[anticlimatic]

8-year-old girl fatally shot near Rayshard Brooks memorial site; Atlanta mayor tells protesters to clear out

Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms told protesters Sunday to "clear out" of an area near where Rayshard Brooks was killed by police last month after an 8-year-old girl was fatally shot near the site over the weekend.

"You shot and killed a baby," she said at a news conference. "Enough is enough."

On “White Fragility” - Reporting by Matt Taibbi

It sees the human being as locked into one of three categories: members of oppressed groups, allies, and white oppressors.
Where we reside on the spectrum of righteousness is, they say, almost entirely determined by birth, a view probably shared by a lot of 4chan readers.

This dingbat racialist cult, which has no art, music, literature, and certainly no comedy, is the vision of “progress” institutional America has chosen to endorse in the Trump era. Why? Maybe because it fits. It won’t hurt the business model of the news media, which for decades now has been monetizing division and has known how to profit from moral panics and witch hunts since before Fleet street discovered the Mod/Rocker wars.

For corporate America the calculation is simple. What’s easier, giving up business models based on war, slave labor, and regulatory arbitrage, or benching Aunt Jemima? There’s a deal to be made here, greased by the fact that the “antiracism” prophets promoted in books like White Fragility share corporate Americas instinctive hostility to privacy, individual rights, freedom of speech, etc.

 

[Tellenbach]

The problem is very obvious to rational people. It's not racism, police brutality, an oppressive dominant culture, or Trump. The culture in many urban centers is broken; there is no moral upbringing (largely as a result of the lack of fathers). Kids are raised without boundaries and they become entitled scumbags who think it's ok to steal and shoot people. The Atlanta mayor blamed the shooting of the little girl on Trump. She and the people she represents need to take a good long hard look in the mirror like MJ said.

"I'm starting with the man in the mirror
I'm asking him to change his ways
And no message could have been any clearer
If you want to make the world a better place
(If you want to make the world a better place)
Take a look at yourself, and then make a change
(Take a look at yourself, and then make a change"

Michael got it. He's absolutely right.

 

[Jonny]

The problem is very obvious to rational people. It's not racism, police brutality, an oppressive dominant culture, or Trump. The culture in many urban centers is broken; there is no moral upbringing (largely as a result of the lack of fathers). Kids are raised without boundaries and they become entitled scumbags who think it's ok to steal and shoot people. The Atlanta mayor blamed the shooting of the little girl on Trump. She and the people she represents need to take a good long hard look in the mirror like MJ said.

"I'm starting with the man in the mirror
I'm asking him to change his ways
And no message could have been any clearer
If you want to make the world a better place
(If you want to make the world a better place)
Take a look at yourself, and then make a change
(Take a look at yourself, and then make a change"

Michael got it. He's absolutely right.

Have you seen the study referenced below?

Police stop fewer black drivers at night when a 'veil of darkness' obscures their race: Study also finds that when drivers were pulled over, officers searched the cars of blacks and Hispanics more often than whites -- ScienceDaily

 

[Tellenbach]

Have you seen the study referenced below?

Black people commit half the gun homicides and over 70% of prison inmates were raised by single moms. That's the real problem and it has nothing to do with the police.

 

[Jonny]

Black people commit half the gun homicides and over 70% of prison inmates were raised by single moms. That's the real problem and it has nothing to do with the police.

Yes, and people with criminal records are more likely to die from gun violence. Nobody disagrees that gun violence is a problem. But people who are committing crimes are not as amenable to top-down policy making. The solutions to those problems are much more complicated.

You're using incidence of gun violence to diminish the significance of police misconduct. It's pervasive and inescapable for people of color, and it shouldn't be overlooked.

Let me provide you with an analogy.

Suppose instead of the above, I responded to your post with the following:

COVID-19 has killed over 15x the number of people that gun violence has in 2020. That's the real problem and it has nothing to do with blacks or guns.

That's how you sound.

 

[anticlimatic]

To whatever extent the conversation is about actual police misconduct, pretty much everyone is in agreement, so it might as well be discarded- since nobody wants to agree with people or "identity groups" they hate. The currency of American "discourse" is hate, fueled by anger, and all of zero people are interested in addressing that little tid bit of fact.

The rest of the mess currently happening under the BLM "revolution," just boils down to the same long drive to tear up or circumvent the constitution of the United States, as it has stood as the primary foil for the authoritarian left's socialist agenda for decades now.

Police misconduct is just the Trojan horse to slip the rest of the agenda in. Nobody is in the dark on this fact.

 

[Tellenbach]

Nobody disagrees that gun violence is a problem.

The problem isn't guns. It's the people using guns to kill innocent people. Libertarians aren't shooting innocent people. Why are some demographics more likely to engage in violent criminal behavior? That's the root of the problem.

The fact that your side fails to understand this basic point is the reason why places like Chicago, Baltimore, Detroit, and Atlanta will never improve under Democrat leadership. Republicans haven't been in power in Chicago and Detroit for over 50 years. Fix your damn mess.

You're using incidence of gun violence to diminish the significance of police misconduct.

There is misconduct in every profession. The police are not any more or less guilty of this.

 

[Jonny]

The problem isn't guns. It's the people using guns to kill innocent people. Libertarians aren't shooting innocent people. Why are some demographics more likely to engage in violent criminal behavior? That's the root of the problem.

The fact that your side fails to understand this basic point is the reason why places like Chicago, Baltimore, Detroit, and Atlanta will never improve under Democrat leadership. Republicans haven't been in power in Chicago and Detroit for over 50 years. Fix your damn mess.



There is misconduct in every profession. The police are not any more or less guilty of this.

Have you heard this speaker before? This video will provide some of the root causes for our current racial disparity.

 

[Coriolis]

The problem isn't guns. It's the people using guns to kill innocent people. Libertarians aren't shooting innocent people. Why are some demographics more likely to engage in violent criminal behavior? That's the root of the problem.

That may be the root of the crime problem. It doesn't explain police misconduct that falls disproportionately on blacks. A black person engaged in criminal activity is more likely to die or be injured at the hands of police than a white person similarly engaged. A black person who is doing something normal and legal is more likely to be reported to police and subsequently harassed or mistreated by them than a white person engaged in the same activity. This suggests bias in the policing system. Yes, there are two problems here, and they are not unrelated.

There is misconduct in every profession. The police are not any more or less guilty of this.

Given their role and the equipment available to them, misconduct by the police is much more likely to be immediately injurious to those subject to it than misconduct in many other professions. The recourse available to the public is usually more limited, too, as opposed to e.g. medicine where malpractice suits are commonplace.

 

[Mayflower]

A bit late, but I'll give my take. It is a case of police brutality but not race. Coming from the data that's coming up, He "probably" had a beef with Floyd and kept him restrained in aggravation while Floyd died of cardiac arrest (still should be charged with homicide, even if he didn't directly kill him). As for the riots and protests, I can't get behind them. I agree there should be police reform, but it devolved (or deliberately driven toward) to being about the overwhelming racism that keeps black people down.

 

[Tellenbach]

It doesn't explain police misconduct that falls disproportionately on blacks. A black person engaged in criminal activity is more likely to die or be injured at the hands of police than a white person similarly engaged.

I agree that all criminals should be mistreated or injured by the police regardless of race.

There are reasons that would explain why blacks may be treated differently that has nothing to do with race. Have you considered that some demographics may be using drugs more than other demos and that the people who are under the influence of PCP may react differently to the police?

In the end, it's all about personal choices. George Floyd made a whole slew of bad ones. That doesn't mean he should've been killed, but it does mean that he could have greatly reduced that possibility through wiser choices. The guy was a career criminal and a violent drug pusher. I don't see the police abusing any Amish, Indian, Korean, or Jewish men.

Imagine this was the 80s and you were waiting in line at Wendys to get a burger and soda so you can eat dinner and watch MacGyver and this dude holds up the line. IMO, this is just bad karma from a lifetime of bad behavior.

 

[Coriolis]

I agree that all criminals should be mistreated or injured by the police regardless of race.

There are reasons that would explain why blacks may be treated differently that has nothing to do with race. Have you considered that some demographics may be using drugs more than other demos and that the people who are under the influence of PCP may react differently to the police?

In the end, it's all about personal choices. George Floyd made a whole slew of bad ones. That doesn't mean he should've been killed, but it does mean that he could have greatly reduced that possibility through wiser choices. The guy was a career criminal and a violent drug pusher. I don't see the police abusing any Amish, Indian, Korean, or Jewish men.

Imagine this was the 80s and you were waiting in line at Wendys to get a burger and soda so you can eat dinner and watch MacGyver and this dude holds up the line. IMO, this is just bad karma from a lifetime of bad behavior.

I see. So you are for equal-opportunity police brutality. That doesn't sound very libertarian to me. I don't know that some demographics use drugs more often than others. I would need to see evidence for that, and a specific link to crime. In other words, many forms of drug abuse have little tie to violent crime.

In any case, criminals - or more accurately, suspects - who are either high/stoned or mentally ill are best approached by mental health professionals who understand how to de-escalate interactions and can talk them down or otherwise manage them without harm to themselves or others. Sending the police is basically treating everything like a nail because all you have is a hammer. We need to put more tools in the public safety toolbox. Some communities have replaced some of their police officers with medical people, to good effect, saving both money and lives. See one example in Oregon. Many other communities are now considering this model, one of the ways to (partially) "defund police" that actually makes sense.

 

[Tellenbach]

In any case, criminals - or more accurately, suspects - who are either high/stoned or mentally ill are best approached by mental health professionals who understand how to de-escalate interactions and can talk them down or otherwise manage them without harm to themselves or others.

Good luck finding people who will confront angry, violent, emotionally unstable people - or people who are under the influence of some drug. I'm all for experimentation and I do hope that social workers can do the job, but I'm thinking we're going to see a couple of dead social workers and then this scheme will be abandoned.

I don't know that some demographics use drugs more often than others. I would need to see evidence for that, and a specific link to crime. In other words, many forms of drug abuse have little tie to violent crime.

Demographic differences in drug use is just one example of how some perpetrators would react differently when facing an arrest. There are cultural differences as well between various demographics in how they respond to the police. Before we scream "racist cops", we need to find out why some groups are injured more than others.

 

[Coriolis]

Good luck finding people who will confront angry, violent, emotionally unstable people - or people who are under the influence of some drug. I'm all for experimentation and I do hope that social workers can do the job, but I'm thinking we're going to see a couple of dead social workers and then this scheme will be abandoned.

There are people who do this every day: mental health professionals. They are trained to do it and choose to do it as a profession/vocation. We don't see police or fire departments disbanded just because a couple officers or firefighters die on the job. They know what they are getting into, and have the training to approach it as safely as possible. Part of this training for medical folks is NOT to confront, but to gain the person's trust and de-escalate. Communities that try this don't seem to have trouble identifying those with the right expertise who are willing to serve in this way.

 

[Tellenbach]

African Americans cited for resisting arrest at high rate in S.F.

This is San Francisco, so I'm sure the police have received a ton of racial sensitivity training.

African Americans in San Francisco are cited for resisting arrest at a rate eight times greater than whites even when serious crimes are not involved, according to statistics drawn from court records.

Whites, who make up roughly half of San Francisco’s population, made up 39 percent of those cited for resisting arrest. Asian Americans, who make up roughly a third of the population, accounted for just 3 percent of those cited for resisting arrest.

The math sucks in this article, but the point is still very clear. Either black suspects are resisting arrest at a much higher rate compared to asians and whites or the cops in San Francisco are lying. Which is it? Since many ISTJs are cops, I tend to trust they're telling the truth.